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Nobody will trust the catalyst after Leviathan (Warning Leviathan Spoilers)


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#801
dreman9999

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Baronesa wrote...

Oh Jolly good... the Catalysts and the Reapers are not killing anyone, according to Dreman...

Ok, forget about the war, everyone, let's go to our homes and wait patiently till we are turned into goo an ascended! There is nothing to fear! no need to resist either...


Way to warp what I'm saying. I never said they never killed anyone nor what they are doing is ok. Everything I'm saying is more of a reason to fight back. We are having a belief imposed on us, we have all the reason to fight back.

All I'm doing is making it clear what the reapers want and are doing. I never said let them. I would never say let them.

#802
The Angry One

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dreman9999 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Oh Jolly good... the Catalysts and the Reapers are not killing anyone, according to Dreman...

Ok, forget about the war, everyone, let's go to our homes and wait patiently till we are turned into goo an ascended! There is nothing to fear! no need to resist either...


Way to warp what I'm saying. I never said they never killed anyone nor what they are doing is ok. Everything I'm saying is more of a reason to fight back. We are having a belief imposed on us, we have all the reason to fight back.

All I'm doing is making it clear what the reapers want and are doing. I never said let them. I would never say let them.


You are saying it is not lying when it sugar-coats the issue and evades the point about killing people.
It *is* killing people. It kills them to make Reapers. It kills them to make husks. It kills them by just blowing them up.

#803
3DandBeyond

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dreman9999 wrote...

You are warping the definiton of it. You have yet to tell his lies.
Added, the reason why I feel he is telling the true is because I understand how machines think. It's in absolutes if it is stuck doing it programing. It has no morality. It does see things as good or evil. It has not right or wrong. It 's a tool. The only way you can prove he is lieing is to point out that he is not doing his original programing. If you go by what he says , he is.
What you not understanding is that I don't belevie his salution is right. I just understand that he thinks he is right. This is just a defence of opinion. And even on that everthing he believesis basedon his creator belief on the problem that was forced on him.
And do you know what I did to solve it? ...I destroyed him.


I have consistently told you where he lies.  You are distorting things.  You apparently believe that someone is not lying unless they start a sentence with, "I am going to tell you a lie now".

Oh now we're back to people not understanding how machines think and you do.  Which starts your logic circle again.  He is not a mere machine.  He is an advanced AI.  If he is not an advanced AI, he lied.  If he is he would at least be as advanced as EDI (a machine) that does think and that does feel and that does understand morality.  She understands right or wrong.

This is crazy.  In order to prove he's not lying you are going by what he says.  "The only way you can prove he is lieing is to point out that he is not
doing his original programing. If you go by what he says , he is."  You are trying to prove he is being truthful based on what he says.  And even in this he contradicts himself.  Hilarious.

He says his original programming was to find balance and peace between organics and synthetics.  Yet he creates imbalance and war.  He's supposed to prevent chaos.  He causes it.  He's supposed to keep synthetics from killing organics, yet he sends them to do just that.  He even sent Sovereign to use the geth to do just that.  The conflict between the geth and the quarians was not fully going on-they had both retreated and were not even fighting when Sovereign came in and caused the heretics to kill.  So, the kid started the conflict.  He also seeds the galaxy with tech that will ensure organics advance enough to create synthetics that he thinks will want to kill them.  He's creating what he was programmed to prevent.  If he does not seed the galaxy with reaper tech, the possibility exists (however slight) that organics will never create synthetic life.  But he guarantees that they will.

He is definitely not just following his programming (gee sounds a lot like "I was just following orders" which is never a defense).  He is not bound by his programming any more than EDI is bound by hers.  If he is, then he is lying about his own nature and his abilities.  But it's all moot because his intent doesn't even matter, his actions that do.  He may not be evil, he may not be crazy, but his solution is.  And so are the 3 solutions because they do solve his directive in just as warped a way as the reapers do.  I agree he may be following his initial directive, but his solution is warped and he continually makes his solution necessary.  The conflict will always exist because he makes it happen-was he programmed to do that?

#804
dreman9999

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The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Oh Jolly good... the Catalysts and the Reapers are not killing anyone, according to Dreman...

Ok, forget about the war, everyone, let's go to our homes and wait patiently till we are turned into goo an ascended! There is nothing to fear! no need to resist either...


Way to warp what I'm saying. I never said they never killed anyone nor what they are doing is ok. Everything I'm saying is more of a reason to fight back. We are having a belief imposed on us, we have all the reason to fight back.

All I'm doing is making it clear what the reapers want and are doing. I never said let them. I would never say let them.


You are saying it is not lying when it sugar-coats the issue and evades the point about killing people.
It *is* killing people. It kills them to make Reapers. It kills them to make husks. It kills them by just blowing them up.

No. What I'm saying is what the catalyst is doing is a case of defination.  It technocly is just reforming people into a new form of life. It concept is based on the defination of being Alive. The husk and reapers a technically in the catagory of being Alive. Even the people mind are uploaded into a new form.
It's not lieing, it just using the broder term of Alive in it's defiantion.

#805
3DandBeyond

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dreman9999 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Oh Jolly good... the Catalysts and the Reapers are not killing anyone, according to Dreman...

Ok, forget about the war, everyone, let's go to our homes and wait patiently till we are turned into goo an ascended! There is nothing to fear! no need to resist either...


Way to warp what I'm saying. I never said they never killed anyone nor what they are doing is ok. Everything I'm saying is more of a reason to fight back. We are having a belief imposed on us, we have all the reason to fight back.

All I'm doing is making it clear what the reapers want and are doing. I never said let them. I would never say let them.


dreman9999 wrote...

A paradox won't work now. The probelm
here is defination. The only way to put him in a paradox is to prove he
is killing organics. Technicly, he is not.



#806
dreman9999

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3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You are warping the definiton of it. You have yet to tell his lies.
Added, the reason why I feel he is telling the true is because I understand how machines think. It's in absolutes if it is stuck doing it programing. It has no morality. It does see things as good or evil. It has not right or wrong. It 's a tool. The only way you can prove he is lieing is to point out that he is not doing his original programing. If you go by what he says , he is.
What you not understanding is that I don't belevie his salution is right. I just understand that he thinks he is right. This is just a defence of opinion. And even on that everthing he believesis basedon his creator belief on the problem that was forced on him.
And do you know what I did to solve it? ...I destroyed him.


I have consistently told you where he lies.  You are distorting things.  You apparently believe that someone is not lying unless they start a sentence with, "I am going to tell you a lie now".

Oh now we're back to people not understanding how machines think and you do.  Which starts your logic circle again.  He is not a mere machine.  He is an advanced AI.  If he is not an advanced AI, he lied.  If he is he would at least be as advanced as EDI (a machine) that does think and that does feel and that does understand morality.  She understands right or wrong.

This is crazy.  In order to prove he's not lying you are going by what he says.  "The only way you can prove he is lieing is to point out that he is not
doing his original programing. If you go by what he says , he is."  You are trying to prove he is being truthful based on what he says.  And even in this he contradicts himself.  Hilarious.

He says his original programming was to find balance and peace between organics and synthetics.  Yet he creates imbalance and war.  He's supposed to prevent chaos.  He causes it.  He's supposed to keep synthetics from killing organics, yet he sends them to do just that.  He even sent Sovereign to use the geth to do just that.  The conflict between the geth and the quarians was not fully going on-they had both retreated and were not even fighting when Sovereign came in and caused the heretics to kill.  So, the kid started the conflict.  He also seeds the galaxy with tech that will ensure organics advance enough to create synthetics that he thinks will want to kill them.  He's creating what he was programmed to prevent.  If he does not seed the galaxy with reaper tech, the possibility exists (however slight) that organics will never create synthetic life.  But he guarantees that they will.

He is definitely not just following his programming (gee sounds a lot like "I was just following orders" which is never a defense).  He is not bound by his programming any more than EDI is bound by hers.  If he is, then he is lying about his own nature and his abilities.  But it's all moot because his intent doesn't even matter, his actions that do.  He may not be evil, he may not be crazy, but his solution is.  And so are the 3 solutions because they do solve his directive in just as warped a way as the reapers do.  I agree he may be following his initial directive, but his solution is warped and he continually makes his solution necessary.  The conflict will always exist because he makes it happen-was he programmed to do that?

1. He doesn't contridict himself.
2.I think you need to understand what he is programed to do before you say he is not doing it anymore.

#807
The Angry One

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dreman9999 wrote...

No. What I'm saying is what the catalyst is doing is a case of defination.  It technocly is just reforming people into a new form of life. It concept is based on the defination of being Alive. The husk and reapers a technically in the catagory of being Alive. Even the people mind are uploaded into a new form.
It's not lieing, it just using the broder term of Alive in it's defiantion.


Even if we accepted those technicalities, what about the people it outright kills?

Including the boy who's form it takes.

I can't emphasise that enough. Starbrat claims to not kill, only "ascend" while taking the form of a child it murdered.
The people in those shuttles weren't resisting, they were running for their lives. It had no reason to kill them, but it did.
And what about all the colonies and low population cities the Reapers just nuked? How does setting a planet on fire aid ascension?

It kills. The end.

Modifié par The Angry One, 10 août 2012 - 01:50 .


#808
shepskisaac

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The Angry One

#809
dreman9999

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3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Oh Jolly good... the Catalysts and the Reapers are not killing anyone, according to Dreman...

Ok, forget about the war, everyone, let's go to our homes and wait patiently till we are turned into goo an ascended! There is nothing to fear! no need to resist either...


Way to warp what I'm saying. I never said they never killed anyone nor what they are doing is ok. Everything I'm saying is more of a reason to fight back. We are having a belief imposed on us, we have all the reason to fight back.

All I'm doing is making it clear what the reapers want and are doing. I never said let them. I would never say let them.


dreman9999 wrote...

A paradox won't work now. The probelm
here is defination. The only way to put him in a paradox is to prove he
is killing organics. Technicly, he is not.



Let me be clear.  When I say he is killing someone, I refering to the war. When I say he is not killing anyone, I refering to making a reapers.
Do you need someone to hold you hand to understand?

#810
BDelacroix

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Not sure broader is the term I'd use, more like "bizarrely twisted definition of alive".

So shooting the tube was the only way to go. Everything else can be rebuilt.

#811
dreman9999

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The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No. What I'm saying is what the catalyst is doing is a case of defination.  It technocly is just reforming people into a new form of life. It concept is based on the defination of being Alive. The husk and reapers a technically in the catagory of being Alive. Even the people mind are uploaded into a new form.
It's not lieing, it just using the broder term of Alive in it's defiantion.


Even if we accepted those technicalities, what about the people it outright kills?

Including the boy who's form it takes.

I can't emphasise that enough. Starbrat claims to not kill, only "ascend" while taking the form of a child it murdered.
The people in those shuttles weren't resisting, they were running for their lives. It had no reason to kill them, but it did.
And what about all the colonies and low population cities the Reapers just nuked? How does setting a planet on fire aid ascension?

It kills. The end.

Yes, it kill to impose it veiws. It kills indivisual organics to save organics as an abstract. This is like sending solders to die, to save millions of people. Or killing one person to save thousands. That what his logic is.
In the end it still and issue of defination.

#812
The Angry One

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dreman9999 wrote...

Let me be clear.  When I say he is killing someone, I refering to the war. When I say he is not killing anyone, I refering to making a reapers.
Do you need someone to hold you hand to understand?


You've been caught making a bad argument and now you're attempting to backpedal.
Seperating the war and the harvesting is dishonest. The war is waged in order to harvest, and either way, it kills.

Moreover, Reaperisation is killing. A person is TURNED INTO GOO. The person they were is gone forever.
i'm pretty damn sure the game regards Kelly as dead if she gets liquified.

dreman9999 wrote...

Yes, it kill to impose it veiws. It
kills indivisual organics to save organics as an abstract. This is like
sending solders to die, to save millions of people. Or killing one
person to save thousands. That what his logic is.
In the end it still and issue of defination.


This is irrelevant. It still kills, and it lies about it.
Also, it kills noncombatants. Let me say that again. IT KILLS NONCOMBATANTS. That is not war.

Modifié par The Angry One, 10 août 2012 - 01:56 .


#813
dreman9999

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BDelacroix wrote...

Not sure broader is the term I'd use, more like "bizarrely twisted definition of alive".

So shooting the tube was the only way to go. Everything else can be rebuilt.

It broad and It defenetly different with how we averagly fell about being Alive.
But I agree, destroying it is the only option.

#814
3DandBeyond

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dreman9999 wrote...

No. What I'm saying is what the catalyst is doing is a case of defination.  It technocly is just reforming people into a new form of life. It concept is based on the defination of being Alive. The husk and reapers a technically in the catagory of being Alive. Even the people mind are uploaded into a new form.
It's not lieing, it just using the broder term of Alive in it's defiantion.


If he is an intelligent being then he understands what being alive means.  He would understand it if he had access to his creators' thoughts.  As soon as they became a part of him, he would know they no longer felt or were alive as organic beings define it.  His definition would have changed.  And he has trillions of minds that would all be saying the same thing.  The body is a part of being alive.  The chemicals within the body form part of the makeup of our personalities.  Mere thought is not life.  And even a calculating mind knows that.  EDI knew that.  He says he's more advanced than an AI.  You're saying he isn't.  The geth knew that mere thought was not life.  And life is a more complicated process than just being able to do higher Math.  It's breathing in and out.  Furthermore, Sovereign and Harbinger were killing people.  The reapers are not ascending everyone.  A lot of them just die and are left to rot.  The Quarians just die and are not ascended. 

Ascension is not creating new life.  It is adding computing power.  Never saw a reaper cry.

#815
Baronesa

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OK I had enough... before resuming the conversation I have to take this out of my chest, so please excuse me for a moment

it is SOLUTION not sAlution

it is DEFINITION not definAtion

That is all.

Modifié par Baronesa, 10 août 2012 - 01:56 .


#816
dreman9999

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The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No. What I'm saying is what the catalyst is doing is a case of defination.  It technocly is just reforming people into a new form of life. It concept is based on the defination of being Alive. The husk and reapers a technically in the catagory of being Alive. Even the people mind are uploaded into a new form.
It's not lieing, it just using the broder term of Alive in it's defiantion.


Even if we accepted those technicalities, what about the people it outright kills?

Including the boy who's form it takes.

I can't emphasise that enough. Starbrat claims to not kill, only "ascend" while taking the form of a child it murdered.
The people in those shuttles weren't resisting, they were running for their lives. It had no reason to kill them, but it did.
And what about all the colonies and low population cities the Reapers just nuked? How does setting a planet on fire aid ascension?

It kills. The end.

I'm sorry?

The Angry One wrote...





Even if we accepted those technicalities, what about the people it outright kills?

Including the boy who's form it takes.

I can't emphasise that enough. Starbrat claims to not kill, only "ascend" while taking the form of a child it murdered.
The people in those shuttles weren't resisting, they were running for their lives. It had no reason to kill them, but it did. 
And what about all the colonies and low population cities the Reapers just nuked? How does setting a planet on fire aid ascension?

It kills. The end.

 
You clearly understood what I meant. Why can't 
3DandBeyond ?

#817
3DandBeyond

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The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Let me be clear.  When I say he is killing someone, I refering to the war. When I say he is not killing anyone, I refering to making a reapers.
Do you need someone to hold you hand to understand?


You've been caught making a bad argument and now you're attempting to backpedal.
Seperating the war and the harvesting is dishonest. The war is waged in order to harvest, and either way, it kills.

Moreover, Reaperisation is killing. A person is TURNED INTO GOO. The person they were is gone forever.
i'm pretty damn sure the game regards Kelly as dead if she gets liquified.

dreman9999 wrote...

Yes, it kill to impose it veiws. It
kills indivisual organics to save organics as an abstract. This is like
sending solders to die, to save millions of people. Or killing one
person to save thousands. That what his logic is.
In the end it still and issue of defination.


This is irrelevant. It still kills, and it lies about it.


This is exactly it.  He wants Shepard to believe that he is just creating new life-he's a good guy, really.  Yet, you can look out the "window" and see his lie everytime a reaper destroys a ship.

He's deceptive.  Lying is deceit and deceit is lying.  He's either killing or he isn't.  And he is, but he says he isn't.  And look at what he's doing.  Harvesting.  Even if that was all he was doing, it is still killing.  If I harvest corn, I have killed it.  If I eat it I am creating new life using it-I may be building cells in my body.  But the corn is still dead.

#818
Thaa_solon

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dreman9999 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Oh Jolly good... the Catalysts and the Reapers are not killing anyone, according to Dreman...

Ok, forget about the war, everyone, let's go to our homes and wait patiently till we are turned into goo an ascended! There is nothing to fear! no need to resist either...


Way to warp what I'm saying. I never said they never killed anyone nor what they are doing is ok. Everything I'm saying is more of a reason to fight back. We are having a belief imposed on us, we have all the reason to fight back.

All I'm doing is making it clear what the reapers want and are doing. I never said let them. I would never say let them.


dreman9999 wrote...

A paradox won't work now. The probelm
here is defination. The only way to put him in a paradox is to prove he
is killing organics. Technicly, he is not.



Let me be clear.  When I say he is killing someone, I refering to the war. When I say he is not killing anyone, I refering to making a reapers.
Do you need someone to hold you hand to understand?


Hmmmm

Person gets huskified = personality dies = person died
Person gets eaten by huskified = personality dies = person died
Person gets melted to form reaper = personality combines with other personalitys = person died = personality dies

Dreman9999 are you holding your own hand cause you're the one who understands your own flawed logic

Whatever the catalyst says, he is still killing people not saving them.

#819
AngryFrozenWater

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dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Just for a last jab. Their is more proof he is shackled then him being not. He makes it clear is being forced.

That's not proof. If the option, which is dreamed up by the brat itself, "forces" the brat to accept it then it just faces the consequences of that.

BTW: The term "shackled" is only used to indicate EDI's behavioral locks. No such reference is ever made when it comes to any other AI. That's why I asked that earlier in this thread. The only reason you want the brat to be shackled is because it would show that it is not responsible for its actions. It is the same reason why you keep confusing an AI with a VI. If the brat does something that cannot be defended you are treating it as a VI.

You entire concept is that the catalyst is lieing. If this leak is ture, the catalyst is not and himsay he is being forced does mean he is shackled.
Also, the term shackled can be done to any AI. It make no sense it can only be done to one AI.

The only one who is forced here is Shepard to accept one of its options. The brat forces itself to respect Shepard's choice, unless its creators told the brat to build the Citadel with three platforms to interface with the Crucible plus an elevator to get an organic up there.

The Catalyst, as a slave to its programming, must find the best solution. It builds its knowledge and data empirically as we know because it has changed solutions. This means it does not consider itself infallible. The Crucible's execution (attached to the Citadel) is a manifestation of the flaws in the Reaper plan, so the REaper solution becomes less viable at the given moment due to new occurrences. The Crucible's solutions all are better than the now-lowered-Reaper solution. Therefore, as a slave to its programming, the Catalyst is forced to turn to Shepard and the Crucible to get a better solution.

You are confusing an AI with a VI.

JShepppp wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

"And be a good boy now. Whenever a wounded organic lies there push the button of the elevator. It's most likely Miss Shepard. She's a good girl. You can trust her. Make sure you do your eugenics homework before she gets there, because we don't want anymore poor organics ending up with two heads."

Any AI can be shackled, but that does not mean all are. The only one we know of was EDI's behavioral lock. No other AI has been designated as such. And thus the brat is unshackled. And thus it is able to lie if it is in its advantage. Even if it was shackled it wouldn't mean it could not lie. It depends on what behavior was blocked. And guess what? It is a master in lying. It even developed technology to force people to believe its lies. It's called indoctrination.

So your argument is that since most AIs aren't shackled, we must just assume that the Catalyst isn't? Evidence indicates otherwise.

And why would it try to indoctrinate Shepard at the time of the Crucible? It makes no sense; it might as well kill Shepard and get an indoctrinated servant to activate Synthesis. If it specifically needs shepard's build to do synthesis, why doesn't it present synthesis as the ONLY option of the Crucible and the destroy option? Why even bother giving the choice to destroy?

No. We only know that EDI once was shackled. There is no evidence whatsoever that any other AI has been shackled. And that includes the brat. The closest thing was the reapers turning synthetics hostile.

Read what I wrote again. I did not mention that Shepard was indoctrinated. Developing indoctrination does not mean it's using it against Shepard. It only shows that it is capable of lying because organics can be forced to believe its lies using indoctrination.

1. You clear don't understand what a VI is. It not a machine that is a slave to it's programing. It's a computor that can't think in abstract.
EDI in ME2 was a slave to her programing before being unshakled. Was she a VI then?

2.BS. Give a reason why an AI can't be shakled and you can say it can only happen to one AI. Otherwise we'll use common sense and deduct that other AI's can be shakled.

#1. It is more productive to actually educate yourself in what AI actually means then trying to cover your lack of knowledge in that area. It makes you look silly. A good starting point is the codex.

#2. Any AI can be shackled, but there is only evidence of one that used to be shackled: EDI. There is no evidence of any other shackled AI. That includes the brat. That means that we have to asume those are not limited in that way. Simple enough?

#820
The Angry One

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3DandBeyond wrote...

This is exactly it.  He wants Shepard to believe that he is just creating new life-he's a good guy, really.  Yet, you can look out the "window" and see his lie everytime a reaper destroys a ship.

He's deceptive.  Lying is deceit and deceit is lying.  He's either killing or he isn't.  And he is, but he says he isn't.  And look at what he's doing.  Harvesting.  Even if that was all he was doing, it is still killing.  If I harvest corn, I have killed it.  If I eat it I am creating new life using it-I may be building cells in my body.  But the corn is still dead.


Even if we accepted that Reapers must kill ships to defend themselves, all you have to do is look up at Earth.
Oh look. Half the planet is on fire. Low population cities were wiped out completely. Presumably because populations in the low millions aren't worth the effort of harvesting.
That's right, the Reapers kill entire cities not because they resist, not because they're not "worthy" of ascension, but because they are lazy.

#821
dreman9999

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3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No. What I'm saying is what the catalyst is doing is a case of defination.  It technocly is just reforming people into a new form of life. It concept is based on the defination of being Alive. The husk and reapers a technically in the catagory of being Alive. Even the people mind are uploaded into a new form.
It's not lieing, it just using the broder term of Alive in it's defiantion.


If he is an intelligent being then he understands what being alive means.  He would understand it if he had access to his creators' thoughts.  As soon as they became a part of him, he would know they no longer felt or were alive as organic beings define it.  His definition would have changed.  And he has trillions of minds that would all be saying the same thing.  The body is a part of being alive.  The chemicals within the body form part of the makeup of our personalities.  Mere thought is not life.  And even a calculating mind knows that.  EDI knew that.  He says he's more advanced than an AI.  You're saying he isn't.  The geth knew that mere thought was not life.  And life is a more complicated process than just being able to do higher Math.  It's breathing in and out.  Furthermore, Sovereign and Harbinger were killing people.  The reapers are not ascending everyone.  A lot of them just die and are left to rot.  The Quarians just die and are not ascended. 

Ascension is not creating new life.  It is adding computing power.  Never saw a reaper cry.

Why assume someone will just will understand? Machine start out having no morality. How would it just suddenly know what his creators morality is if he is not even allowed to gain one himself? That is the problem. EDI was not a problem because she was let lose frombeing a slave to her programing. Same with the geth. They are allowed to get a morality They are free. Don't just assume that everyone one would just get yours or other morality just because. That's how wars get started.
He didn't change his defiantion of alive at all. Heck, the defiantion of alive is so broad that a stable difintion can't be made. It's so broad that self awarness is considered an addition. He did not change anything about himself that he was not allowed to change. Everything he is doing is bacause of his programing.

#822
Conniving_Eagle

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-Walks into discussion-

-Sees dreman999 arguing with multiple people-

-Slowly backs away, then runs out-

#823
3DandBeyond

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dreman9999 wrote...

1. He doesn't contridict himself.
2.I think you need to understand what he is programed to do before you say he is not doing it anymore.


You need to start directly quoting what you are referring to.  You continually insult people here by saying they don't understand this or that.  Wow you are the only one that ever knows anything.  I do understand what he says he was programmed to do.  If that wasn't it then he lied.

He was programmed to find balance and peace between organics and synthetics.  Peace as in not war.  He creates war.  That is not what he was supposed to do.  A calculator could figure that one out.  No computer that is programmed to find peace is going to define that as "by creating war".

He is supposed to prevent synthetics from being made that will destroy organics.  He sends synthetics to destroy organics.  He also creates the circumstances where organics will create synthetics that he thinks will kill them.  So now you are saying he was programmed to give organics the tech that will help them learn to build synthetics and create conflict and war?

He believes that that conflict will always exist.  Was he programmed to create the conflict?

He sent Sovereign and Sovereign used synthetics to kill people.  How does this work with his original programmed directive?  If he was supposed to find peace to save organics then why did he create war everywhere?  And why was he killing organics?

If you believe he's not lying then he was sent to find balance and peace and he does the opposite.  Tell me how his programming got him to do that.  Or don't bother because that's another black hole.

#824
dreman9999

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AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Just for a last jab. Their is more proof he is shackled then him being not. He makes it clear is being forced.

That's not proof. If the option, which is dreamed up by the brat itself, "forces" the brat to accept it then it just faces the consequences of that.

BTW: The term "shackled" is only used to indicate EDI's behavioral locks. No such reference is ever made when it comes to any other AI. That's why I asked that earlier in this thread. The only reason you want the brat to be shackled is because it would show that it is not responsible for its actions. It is the same reason why you keep confusing an AI with a VI. If the brat does something that cannot be defended you are treating it as a VI.

You entire concept is that the catalyst is lieing. If this leak is ture, the catalyst is not and himsay he is being forced does mean he is shackled.
Also, the term shackled can be done to any AI. It make no sense it can only be done to one AI.

The only one who is forced here is Shepard to accept one of its options. The brat forces itself to respect Shepard's choice, unless its creators told the brat to build the Citadel with three platforms to interface with the Crucible plus an elevator to get an organic up there.

The Catalyst, as a slave to its programming, must find the best solution. It builds its knowledge and data empirically as we know because it has changed solutions. This means it does not consider itself infallible. The Crucible's execution (attached to the Citadel) is a manifestation of the flaws in the Reaper plan, so the REaper solution becomes less viable at the given moment due to new occurrences. The Crucible's solutions all are better than the now-lowered-Reaper solution. Therefore, as a slave to its programming, the Catalyst is forced to turn to Shepard and the Crucible to get a better solution.

You are confusing an AI with a VI.

JShepppp wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

"And be a good boy now. Whenever a wounded organic lies there push the button of the elevator. It's most likely Miss Shepard. She's a good girl. You can trust her. Make sure you do your eugenics homework before she gets there, because we don't want anymore poor organics ending up with two heads."

Any AI can be shackled, but that does not mean all are. The only one we know of was EDI's behavioral lock. No other AI has been designated as such. And thus the brat is unshackled. And thus it is able to lie if it is in its advantage. Even if it was shackled it wouldn't mean it could not lie. It depends on what behavior was blocked. And guess what? It is a master in lying. It even developed technology to force people to believe its lies. It's called indoctrination.

So your argument is that since most AIs aren't shackled, we must just assume that the Catalyst isn't? Evidence indicates otherwise.

And why would it try to indoctrinate Shepard at the time of the Crucible? It makes no sense; it might as well kill Shepard and get an indoctrinated servant to activate Synthesis. If it specifically needs shepard's build to do synthesis, why doesn't it present synthesis as the ONLY option of the Crucible and the destroy option? Why even bother giving the choice to destroy?

No. We only know that EDI once was shackled. There is no evidence whatsoever that any other AI has been shackled. And that includes the brat. The closest thing was the reapers turning synthetics hostile.

Read what I wrote again. I did not mention that Shepard was indoctrinated. Developing indoctrination does not mean it's using it against Shepard. It only shows that it is capable of lying because organics can be forced to believe its lies using indoctrination.

1. You clear don't understand what a VI is. It not a machine that is a slave to it's programing. It's a computor that can't think in abstract.
EDI in ME2 was a slave to her programing before being unshakled. Was she a VI then?

2.BS. Give a reason why an AI can't be shakled and you can say it can only happen to one AI. Otherwise we'll use common sense and deduct that other AI's can be shakled.

#1. It is more productive to actually educate yourself in what AI actually means then trying to cover your lack of knowledge in that area. It makes you look silly. A good starting point is the codex.

#2. Any AI can be shackled, but there is only evidence of one that used to be shackled: EDI. There is no evidence of any other shackled AI. That includes the brat. That means that we have to asume those are not limited in that way. Simple enough?

1. No. You really don't understand youself. Really, you don't. An VI is not an AI that is shakled or locked to doing it programing.

2. No. Use some sense. What is the reason why an AI can be shackle. Any arguement your using is based on samantics. There is no reason why other AI's can't be shakled.  The concept of shackled AI is not even new to sci fi. You want to question if it can be done but your not even understand  how its done. iF YOU UNDERSTOOD THEN YOU WOULD KNOW IT CAN BE DONE.

#825
Thaa_solon

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Conniving_Eagle wrote...

-Walks into discussion-

-Sees dreman999 arguing with multiple people-

-Slowly backs away, then runs out-


LOL :lol: