1085 réponses à ce sujet

[robarcool]

Has anyone seen Eagle Eye? The Catalyst sounds similar to that omniscient AI in that movie, who tries to kill the entire executive branch of the government.

[TSA_383]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Much as I don't get on with dreman9999 and I find the majority of his posts almost indecipherable. He is right in broad strokes. In that:

1-The Catalyst never broke it's programming.
2-The Catalyst has never killed anyone
3-The 3 ending are _all_ due to the Crucible not the Catalyst (the AI)

4-Firstly the Reapers are not bound by the same restrictions that the Catalyst has. the Catalyst can give the Reapers purpose that doesn't explicitly including killing and then simply _allow_ the Reapers to kill, as long as the _end_ results are in-line with its programming.

I've numbered your points for easy reference:

1-Probably true, but it's possible that it altered its own programming (y'know, the way EDI does on several occasions in ME3).

2-Okay, so the trillions it's killed by waging war against whole civilisations in order to "harvest" them into goo and make a reaper don't count?

3-What are you basing this on? Oh that's right, what you've been told by the catalyst... the malevolent AI that's been using it's creations to try to kill you for the past 3 games...

4-How do you know? From what we've seen in ME2 & ME3, plus the leaks from Leviathan, Harbinger is the first reaper and the reaper "consciousness" (the catalyst) controls all of them, which is why they can fight as a perfect unit, and why those going into the later stages of indoctrination start having shared thoughts, memories and dreams - their minds become interconnected and they become slaves to the controlling presence (the "catalyst" AI). That makes the catalyst directly responsible for what they do.

Modifié par TSA_383, 10 août 2012 - 10:23 .

[D1100111101]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Thirdly if you can't see how an AI tasked with such a complex concept as "peace" could conclude that harvesting and storing civilisations is a valid solution you haven't read enough Asimov.

You can chose not to believe all that, but it _is_ what Bioware intended and it does make sense in the context of AI as presented in comparable Sci-Fi.

I've been thinking this all through the thread. This is pretty standard sci-fi stuff. And in all the sci-fi that plays around with this concept it usually comes down to 'logic' (synthetics) and 'love' (sentient organics) and I think the same applies to the Mass Effect universe. Synthesis is a 'logical' decision, it preserves the DNA and collective consciousness of sentient species before pure synthetics become dominant.Sentient species (even Salarians) are usually more prone to illogical emotion based decisions. I like the idea of this clash of ideas, the Catalyst seeks to preserve organic species as a whole as oppose to individual organics. Organics, controlled by emotions, can't see the supposed benefit of the Catalyst's plans because, as emotional creatures, their hatred for the reapers is spurned on by the loss of loved ones, not the greater preservation of the species.

We can see this same thing play out in real life. Every computer simulation on nuclear warfare or usage of fossil fuel consumption says that they are unsustainable practices. These are completely logical conclusions. Yet, because of our emotions we continue to build nuclear weapons and consume fossil fuels. Nuclear weapons are built to provide a sense of protection to mask the genuine fear of total war, and against all logic we use up resources because we love air conditioning and hate hybrid cars. And don't argue with the hybrid car thing, they're stupid and no one has ever had fun driving one.

I'm not trying to scorn Bioware's writers, but this seems like an etension of Asimov's "The Evitable Conflict" just on a much larger scale.

[shepskisaac]

D1100111101 wrote...

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Thirdly if you can't see how an AI tasked with such a complex concept as "peace" could conclude that harvesting and storing civilisations is a valid solution you haven't read enough Asimov.

You can chose not to believe all that, but it _is_ what Bioware intended and it does make sense in the context of AI as presented in comparable Sci-Fi.

I've been thinking this all through the thread. This is pretty standard sci-fi stuff. And in all the sci-fi that plays around with this concept it usually comes down to 'logic' (synthetics) and 'love' (sentient organics) and I think the same applies to the Mass Effect universe. Synthesis is a 'logical' decision, it preserves the DNA and collective consciousness of sentient species before pure synthetics become dominant.Sentient species (even Salarians) are usually more prone to illogical emotion based decisions. I like the idea of this clash of ideas, the Catalyst seeks to preserve organic species as a whole as oppose to individual organics. Organics, controlled by emotions, can't see the supposed benefit of the Catalyst's plans because, as emotional creatures, their hatred for the reapers is spurned on by the loss of loved ones, not the greater preservation of the species.

We can see this same thing play out in real life. Every computer simulation on nuclear warfare or usage of fossil fuel consumption says that they are unsustainable practices. These are completely logical conclusions. Yet, because of our emotions we continue to build nuclear weapons and consume fossil fuels. Nuclear weapons are built to provide a sense of protection to mask the genuine fear of total war, and against all logic we use up resources because we love air conditioning and hate hybrid cars. And don't argue with the hybrid car thing, they're stupid and no one has ever had fun driving one.

I'm not trying to scorn Bioware's writers, but this seems like an etension of Asimov's "The Evitable Conflict" just on a much larger scale.

Yup. Asimov was the first writer that came to my mind when EC revealed that the Catalyst is an AI and that the entire cycle thing is a result of him solving a problem

[D1100111101]

TSA_383 wrote...

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Much as I don't get on with dreman9999 and I find the majority of his posts almost indecipherable. He is right in broad strokes. In that:

1-The Catalyst never broke it's programming.
2-The Catalyst has never killed anyone
3-The 3 ending are _all_ due to the Crucible not the Catalyst (the AI)

4-Firstly the Reapers are not bound by the same restrictions that the Catalyst has. the Catalyst can give the Reapers purpose that doesn't explicitly including killing and then simply _allow_ the Reapers to kill, as long as the _end_ results are in-line with its programming.

I've numbered your points for easy reference:

1-Probably true, but it's possible that it altered its own programming (y'know, the way EDI does on several occasions in ME3).

2-Okay, so the trillions it's killed by waging war against whole civilisations in order to "harvest" them into goo and make a reaper don't count?

3-What are you basing this on? Oh that's right, what you've been told by the catalyst... the malevolent AI that's been using it's creations to try to kill you for the past 3 games...

4-How do you know? From what we've seen in ME2 & ME3, plus the leaks from Leviathan, Harbinger is the first reaper and the reaper "consciousness" (the catalyst) controls all of them, which is why they can fight as a perfect unit, and why those going into the later stages of indoctrination start having shared thoughts, memories and dreams - their minds become interconnected and they become slaves to the controlling presence (the "catalyst" AI). That makes the catalyst directly responsible for what they do.

First let me say, none of these are really my ideas, I'm cribbing this from years of reading sci-fi and watching the science channel...

1. I kind of addressed this in my previous post, but lets assume the Catalyst didn't alter its original programming but came up with a solution based on the greater survival of a species. To a machine its possible that it views information as 'life'. DNA is the information that produces organic life, by harvesting any organic species' DNA it is essentially 'saving' that species from purely synthetic life that would eventually destroy without preserving it at all.

2. Again, if the Catalyst sees this as the best way to preserve organic information, I see this as viable. Creepily enough scientists in real life are trying to figure out ways to download human consciousness and have even pieced together digital avatars based on multiple data sets and a whole bunch of computer-y stuff I vaguely understand. A collective consciousness isn't that far off, maybe 100 years, I mean here we all are spread across the globe discussing things in a digital landscape. Would having our conscousness inside a Reaper be that different?

3. I'm not sure how malovelent the Catalyst actually is. As humans we automatically assume anything that bases its opinion off pure logic is frightening because it is very un-human. I think it boils down to a clash of world views between logic and emotion. In the game I think EDI explains it pretty well, she says she 'likes' something so it doesn't freak out the crew but it's just positive feedback based on logic.

4. I agree with you, the Catalyst is definitely responsble for the Reaper's actions. So the directive to harvest organics would have come from the Catalyst, but that doesn't mean the Catalyst thinks what it is doing is killing, it means the Catalyst thinks it is doing the best thing to preserve organic information.

[Postman778]

[quote]D1100111101 wrote...


First let me say, none of these are really my ideas, I'm cribbing this from years of reading sci-fi and watching the science channel...

1. I kind of addressed this in my previous post, but lets assume the Catalyst didn't alter its original programming but came up with a solution based on the greater survival of a species. To a machine its possible that it views information as 'life'. DNA is the information that produces organic life, by harvesting any organic species' DNA it is essentially 'saving' that species from purely synthetic life that would eventually destroy without preserving it at all.

4. I agree with you, the Catalyst is definitely responsble for the
Reaper's actions. So the directive to harvest organics would have come
from the Catalyst, but that doesn't mean the Catalyst thinks what it is
doing is killing, it means the Catalyst thinks it is doing the best
thing to preserve organic information.
[/quote]

DNA is different for everyone of us. The DNA of species (we know) is build up the same way, guanin, cytosin, adenin and thymin. Only the way it is connected is different for each of us.

If you liquify 5 different kind of frogs and put the goo in one bucket, you cannot say you preserved the species.
But that is what the spacebrat is doing.
Do you preserve the cows and vegetables by eating them and mixing them in your stomach?

The spacething has such idiotic solutions...




[/quote]

[shepskisaac]

[quote]Postman778 wrote...

[quote]D1100111101 wrote...


First let me say, none of these are really my ideas, I'm cribbing this from years of reading sci-fi and watching the science channel...

1. I kind of addressed this in my previous post, but lets assume the Catalyst didn't alter its original programming but came up with a solution based on the greater survival of a species. To a machine its possible that it views information as 'life'. DNA is the information that produces organic life, by harvesting any organic species' DNA it is essentially 'saving' that species from purely synthetic life that would eventually destroy without preserving it at all.

4. I agree with you, the Catalyst is definitely responsble for the
Reaper's actions. So the directive to harvest organics would have come
from the Catalyst, but that doesn't mean the Catalyst thinks what it is
doing is killing, it means the Catalyst thinks it is doing the best
thing to preserve organic information.
[/quote]

DNA is different for everyone of us. The DNA of species (we know) is build up the same way, guanin, cytosin, adenin and thymin. Only the way it is connected is different for each of us.

If you liquify 5 different kind of frogs and put the goo in one bucket, you cannot say you preserved the species.
But that is what the spacebrat is doing.
Do you preserve the cows and vegetables by eating them and mixing them in your stomach?

The spacething has such idiotic solutions...




[/quote]
[/quote]But the reaping process is also about uploading the minds of millions of organics into the machine body, not just about the DNA goo. So yeah, I can see why he would see it as preserving

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Oh, dear lord.  It''s an issue of defintion of alive.  The reapers are alive,. Hech the concept of that was brought up in the game with Adams many times. I get that you doing beleive that people that are turn to reapers are not alive stuill but htat does not matter. That is you defintion on alive. That does not mean it the catalyst defination. Your problem here is that you are applying your moraliy as the based of the catalyst actions. What you missing is th catalyst has not morality out side doing it programing. It folloed it programing based on what it felt the peramiters was but it creators did not agree because it was too extreme. It a difference of morality and defiantion. Even BDelacroix even stated that the concept is not even new to sci fi beign that there is a book that had the same thing happen that's going on with the catalyst.
Understand this, you morality is not it's morality. You defination is not it's definations. You can't simply judge it based on you beliefs. You havet o jusdge it based on whats best to do and that still points to destroying it anyway.

First off, what exists in another book doesn't matter.  It's what we are shown here.  You missed the part where people didn't want to become reapers and saw it as dying.  So it's more than my definition of being alive.  It's the definition that would be given to the kid by all those minds added to the reapers.  Alive is not seen by most people (trillions of them) as being inside a reaper that turns people into goo.  Sorry if that is my definition, but I think others probably agree with that and would overrule what the kid thinks.  I'm not basing it on my beliefs unless you think your being alive is a belief.  I'm basing it on the logic of the people computers that would reside in the reapers and say they were far more efficient and alive as autonomous individual beings that had alternate perspectives of the problem.  Just as Legion said was a reason why the geth would move outside of their hubs within mobile platforms.

The kid also tells Shepard when Shepard is to become head reaper, that Shepard will die.  Or did I not understand that that didn't mean death?

And so now this shackled AI fooled its programming.  I thought it was a victim of it.

1. Your still not getting that what the definition of alive to other people is not what matters here. It the catalyst defination. Neather ours, the trinllions that were effected by it or its defination is wrong. It's different. Because of this different defination different perceptions  can be veiwed on the issue. The thing that makes the catalyst wrong is that it's imposing it's veiws on what it alive on others. What makes it avictem is the fact that it's force to impose these view by it's programing. And don't think this empathy I have with  it means I aprove of what it's doing. I don't. I destroyed it.
2.Add, this other books do matter. They are the source material for ME. ME still use those books as refences to what it happening to it's story.
3.It told it that Shepard would die as a human. That just means he is changing forms. This happens with AI's as well whne you transfer them from one form of hard where to another.

[D1100111101]

[quote]Postman778 wrote...

[quote]D1100111101 wrote...


First let me say, none of these are really my ideas, I'm cribbing this from years of reading sci-fi and watching the science channel...

1. I kind of addressed this in my previous post, but lets assume the Catalyst didn't alter its original programming but came up with a solution based on the greater survival of a species. To a machine its possible that it views information as 'life'. DNA is the information that produces organic life, by harvesting any organic species' DNA it is essentially 'saving' that species from purely synthetic life that would eventually destroy without preserving it at all.

4. I agree with you, the Catalyst is definitely responsble for the
Reaper's actions. So the directive to harvest organics would have come
from the Catalyst, but that doesn't mean the Catalyst thinks what it is
doing is killing, it means the Catalyst thinks it is doing the best
thing to preserve organic information.
[/quote]

DNA is different for everyone of us. The DNA of species (we know) is build up the same way, guanin, cytosin, adenin and thymin. Only the way it is connected is different for each of us.

If you liquify 5 different kind of frogs and put the goo in one bucket, you cannot say you preserved the species.
But that is what the spacebrat is doing.
Do you preserve the cows and vegetables by eating them and mixing them in your stomach?

The spacething has such idiotic solutions...
[/quote]
[/quote]

No, but if I blended 5 different frogs together and took the goo to a scientist they could figure out exactly what frogs I blended and probably clone them. And I don't think I need to tell you that digesting food breaks up the DNA strands of whatever you eat, fragmented DNA isn't functional and since the Reapers aren't eating humans, they probably got the DNA out intact. I mean if I get squashed by a falling airplane or fall into a wood chipper they can still recover my DNA.

I'm not a scientist, but I do know that real scientists managed to grow an ear on a mouse's back, clone a sheep, and make glow in the dark fish. I'd say that's not bad for a short lived species. What a group of hyper intelligent robots come up with in deep space after hundred of thousands of years is probably much better than glow in the dark fish or a five frog smoothie. A couple intact DNA strands and a consciousness could equal a brand new human, or they might be splicing together the perfect starnd of DNA to preserve the ideal human. I don't know, I'm not a giant space robot, but it seems likely. We're already splicing DNA together today.

Modifié par D1100111101, 11 août 2012 - 01:07 .

[The Spamming Troll]

dreman9999,

anything, because of any reason, right?

thats easy for you it seems.

[Armass81]

This is madness!

Madness? THIS IS MASS EFFECT 3!!! *Kick*

[dreman9999]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

dreman9999,

anything, because of any reason, right?

thats easy for you it seems.

I never said the catalyst is right. Just different. Understand this, morality is relitive. What you beleve is right and wrong is not what someon else thinks is right and wrong. And the catalyst has no right and wrong in concept.

What I'm trying to explain is empathy for the catalyst not forgiveness of the catalyst. Even with that empathy, I still destoryed it. Most only try to place blame on it which is point less. It's not a fault, it still has to be stoped and destroyed, but it's not at fault.

[JeffZero]

IsaacShep wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

I'm reading... this... whatever this is, now:

http://pastebin.com/v0LAW6fR

This Polish translation of what is allegedly learned in Leviathan... this thing about Omega, look, I dunno if someone out there is pulling a prank on us or what, but I love that idea of Omega having originally intended to be the Crucible. That blew my mind, real or not.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm so utterly confused what this thing is.

In Arrvial Shepard touches the artifact Leviathan, DLC is not canonical, but BioWare certainly is, somehow jump. 

Oh.

I'm Polish. Found the original pastebin (in Polish) since the translation was horrible. Looks like some happy fanfiction to me in some parts. I'm gonna check EC & Firefight TLK files in a second but if Polish TLK files in either of these 2 don't have this info that's claimed to be a summery of DLC, I'm calling BS on it

Thanks, Isaac.

Yeah, reading that was really, really weird. I did like the part about Leviathan fighting Harbinger during Priority: Earth though, lol.

[Mcfly616]

The Catalyst nor the Reapers are trying to be at war.....they are not organic, so they simply view what they are doing is performing a task(the purpose they were designed for)....

Think of a bee harvester......he doesn't hate bees, but the bees probably don't want to be bothered by the harvester so they try to sting him and swarm him....

It's the same with Reapers and us organics.....we are just bothering the Reapers while they perform their purpose.....that's how the Catalyst views it

[ananna21]

Well i figured as why trust it totally anyway?

[P_sutherland]

I wanna see levithan kick harbys butt.

[JShepppp]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

dreman9999,

anything, because of any reason, right?

thats easy for you it seems.

I never said the catalyst is right. Just different. Understand this, morality is relitive. What you beleve is right and wrong is not what someon else thinks is right and wrong. And the catalyst has no right and wrong in concept.

What I'm trying to explain is empathy for the catalyst not forgiveness of the catalyst. Even with that empathy, I still destoryed it. Most only try to place blame on it which is point less. It's not a fault, it still has to be stoped and destroyed, but it's not at fault.

Spamming troll living up to his/her name, I see. 

dreman999, I agree with you on pretty much everything (including past posts in this thread) but think that what you wrote here is especially important.

Empathy is not sympathy, and neither imply forgiveness nor support for the Catalyst. It still should be stopped. But it is not a mindlessly evil villain that contradicts itself or fails to do address its problem. Its problem is impossible to solve so it came up with an imperfect solution which it readily admits it tested and came to as a last resort of sorts (other methods failed, and surely diplomacy was tried by the creator race and that failed too). 

Truth be told, it only kills those that disagree with it, and thus the killing becomes a byproduct of the solution and not the solution itself. This is the same way with Shepard killing Cerberus troops in ME3 - the battle is against the Reapers and the war against Cerberus is a byproduct of the overall goal.

[3DandBeyond]

IsaacShep wrote...

But the reaping process is also about uploading the minds of millions of organics into the machine body, not just about the DNA goo. So yeah, I can see why he would see it as preserving

But after millions of years of doing this with the minds of trillions that never wanted this, wouldn't there be one mental voice saying, "kid you're crazy"?  Or, "this ain't a good idea.  Stop it!"  I mean reapers can talk and all and the logic of all those minds used as computing power would I think try to tell the silly little program that this is not logical.

[3DandBeyond]

Mcfly616 wrote...

The Catalyst nor the Reapers are trying to be at war.....they are not organic, so they simply view what they are doing is performing a task(the purpose they were designed for)....

Think of a bee harvester......he doesn't hate bees, but the bees probably don't want to be bothered by the harvester so they try to sting him and swarm him....

It's the same with Reapers and us organics.....we are just bothering the Reapers while they perform their purpose.....that's how the Catalyst views it

But if he is just using logic then it is obvious he isn't using logic at all.  No one said he hated people.  The result of what he is doing is evil and hateful, but his intent is irrelevant.

What is relevant is he specifically says he was created to find balance and peace between organics and synthetics.  He causes war and creates imbalance between them.  The geth and the quarians were in balance, tentatively for a very long time when Sovereign interceded.  Sovereign created mistrust of all geth by using the heretic to kill people.  You all keep ignoring that the kid doesn't admit to killing anyone and he is not ascending or preserving everyone, some are just killed.  When Shepard fights the reaper on Rannoch, if s/he does not kill it, Shepard dies.  As in dead.

Deception is an indication of understanding.  That doesn't mean he cares, but if I kill a bunch of bees I know darn well I've killed bees.

The kid also has a real odd way of fulfilling his purpose.  He seeds the galaxy with tech to advance organics along a path that makes it possible or probable they will create synthetics which he thinks will try to kill organics.  So, stop seeding the galaxy with tech.  But he does it so his reapers are needed, but they are the synthetics creating war and imbalance, instead of peace and balance-his purpose.  There's no way his logic if it existed would tell him that makes sense.  He's causing the problem so he can solve it and instead of getting rid of the synthetics causing the problem (the reapers), he gets rid of organics that didn't create them.  It would make more sense if he was just some crazy immature program collecting people specimens.  This sounds a lot like the ending of "Under the Dome".

@dreman9999,
I do understand that a simple program may have a different view of life, but he is not a simple AI.  He says he isn't and you think he doesn't lie.  If he doesn't lie he would understand the concept of being alive.  He would understand what it means.  He would also have an understanding (even if devoid of emotion) that people consider what he is doing to be killing them.  It's not that he doesn't care or that I think he should care-he would understand it is counter to logic. 

You think he would not give you destroy to use if the choices were his.  If you think he doesn't understand being alive as we do, then why wouldn't he give you destroy or control?  If he does not understand that death is the cessation of being, existing, then why would he "care" about being destroyed?  Why aren't the choices his if he does not understand death?  And don't say he's preserving people, because not all people are being preserved.  A lot are simply dying.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 11 août 2012 - 03:49 .

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

The Catalyst nor the Reapers are trying to be at war.....they are not organic, so they simply view what they are doing is performing a task(the purpose they were designed for)....

Think of a bee harvester......he doesn't hate bees, but the bees probably don't want to be bothered by the harvester so they try to sting him and swarm him....

It's the same with Reapers and us organics.....we are just bothering the Reapers while they perform their purpose.....that's how the Catalyst views it

But if he is just using logic then it is obvious he isn't using logic at all.  No one said he hated people.  The result of what he is doing is evil and hateful, but his intent is irrelevant.

What is relevant is he specifically says he was created to find balance and peace between organics and synthetics.  He causes war and creates imbalance between them.  The geth and the quarians were in balance, tentatively for a very long time when Sovereign interceded.  Sovereign created mistrust of all geth by using the heretic to kill people.  You all keep ignoring that the kid doesn't admit to killing anyone and he is not ascending or preserving everyone, some are just killed.  When Shepard fights the reaper on Rannoch, if s/he does not kill it, Shepard dies.  As in dead.

Deception is an indication of understanding.  That doesn't mean he cares, but if I kill a bunch of bees I know darn well I've killed bees.

The kid also has a real odd way of fulfilling his purpose.  He seeds the galaxy with tech to advance organics along a path that makes it possible or probable they will create synthetics which he thinks will try to kill organics.  So, stop seeding the galaxy with tech.  But he does it so his reapers are needed, but they are the synthetics creating war and imbalance, instead of peace and balance-his purpose.  There's no way his logic if it existed would tell him that makes sense.  He's causing the problem so he can solve it and instead of getting rid of the synthetics causing the problem (the reapers), he gets rid of organics that didn't create them.  It would make more sense if he was just some crazy immature program collecting people specimens.  This sounds a lot like the ending of "Under the Dome".

@dreman9999,
I do understand that a simple program may have a different view of life, but he is not a simple AI.  He says he isn't and you think he doesn't lie.  If he doesn't lie he would understand the concept of being alive.  He would understand what it means.  He would also have an understanding (even if devoid of emotion) that people consider what he is doing to be killing them.  It's not that he doesn't care or that I think he should care-he would understand it is counter to logic. 

You think he would not give you destroy to use if the choices were his.  If you think he doesn't understand being alive as we do, then why wouldn't he give you destroy or control?  If he does not understand that death is the cessation of being, existing, then why would he "care" about being destroyed?  Why aren't the choices his if he does not understand death?  And don't say he's preserving people, because not all people are being preserved.  A lot are simply dying.

It not a case of a simple AI have a different veiw. It matter not how advance or develop you are, you can easilly have differnt view and missunderstand the veiws of others to the point that one beleives only it's veiws are right.This is  called arragance. Any being can have it. Despite how advance the catalyst is it has  differnet views on being alive. No way is it just going to understand our view just because. You're not understanding it's not a case that it doesn't understand what alive is. It has it own view on it. It's view on what is alive being not your view is not it missunderstanding the concept  or being wrong about it. It just a different view. Just because it has a different view does not mean it's wrong about them. 
What makes it wrong is the fact that it forcing it's views on us.
But the problem is its forced into that veiw and force to impose that veiw.
That is what you not getting.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

But the reaping process is also about uploading the minds of millions of organics into the machine body, not just about the DNA goo. So yeah, I can see why he would see it as preserving

But after millions of years of doing this with the minds of trillions that never wanted this, wouldn't there be one mental voice saying, "kid you're crazy"?  Or, "this ain't a good idea.  Stop it!"  I mean reapers can talk and all and the logic of all those minds used as computing power would I think try to tell the silly little program that this is not logical.

If  person says they like red and a person says they like blue, which one is the correct one?

Any thing in that concept  you stating can be said to be just a different view. The only way that has any effect is if the being has a morality. If it has none, there is no effect.
Let's use an example of a being with a morality that thinks logicaly, Mordin. He believes that t the genophage is logically right. So it's causing millions of krogan to suffer but in contrast the danger of them over runing the galexy is still a point. Reguardless of the genophage being logicaly right, Mordin does see it as being moraly wrong. Thought he supports it logicaly, ethicly and moraly he hates the fact that he does support it.
Why? Because his morals are ageints it.

That's not the case of the catalyst...He has no morals. Why would he be bothed by other being morals if all that's left is logic.

[Applepie_Svk]

TSA_383 wrote...

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Much as I don't get on with dreman9999 and I find the majority of his posts almost indecipherable. He is right in broad strokes. In that:

1-The Catalyst never broke it's programming.
2-The Catalyst has never killed anyone
3-The 3 ending are _all_ due to the Crucible not the Catalyst (the AI)

4-Firstly the Reapers are not bound by the same restrictions that the Catalyst has. the Catalyst can give the Reapers purpose that doesn't explicitly including killing and then simply _allow_ the Reapers to kill, as long as the _end_ results are in-line with its programming.

I've numbered your points for easy reference:

1-Probably true, but it's possible that it altered its own programming (y'know, the way EDI does on several occasions in ME3).

2-Okay, so the trillions it's killed by waging war against whole civilisations in order to "harvest" them into goo and make a reaper don't count?

3-What are you basing this on? Oh that's right, what you've been told by the catalyst... the malevolent AI that's been using it's creations to try to kill you for the past 3 games...

4-How do you know? From what we've seen in ME2 & ME3, plus the leaks from Leviathan, Harbinger is the first reaper and the reaper "consciousness" (the catalyst) controls all of them, which is why they can fight as a perfect unit, and why those going into the later stages of indoctrination start having shared thoughts, memories and dreams - their minds become interconnected and they become slaves to the controlling presence (the "catalyst" AI). That makes the catalyst directly responsible for what they do.

2. So Hitler was also innocent ?

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Much as I don't get on with dreman9999 and I find the majority of his posts almost indecipherable. He is right in broad strokes. In that:

1-The Catalyst never broke it's programming.
2-The Catalyst has never killed anyone
3-The 3 ending are _all_ due to the Crucible not the Catalyst (the AI)

4-Firstly the Reapers are not bound by the same restrictions that the Catalyst has. the Catalyst can give the Reapers purpose that doesn't explicitly including killing and then simply _allow_ the Reapers to kill, as long as the _end_ results are in-line with its programming.

I've numbered your points for easy reference:

1-Probably true, but it's possible that it altered its own programming (y'know, the way EDI does on several occasions in ME3).

2-Okay, so the trillions it's killed by waging war against whole civilisations in order to "harvest" them into goo and make a reaper don't count?

3-What are you basing this on? Oh that's right, what you've been told by the catalyst... the malevolent AI that's been using it's creations to try to kill you for the past 3 games...

4-How do you know? From what we've seen in ME2 & ME3, plus the leaks from Leviathan, Harbinger is the first reaper and the reaper "consciousness" (the catalyst) controls all of them, which is why they can fight as a perfect unit, and why those going into the later stages of indoctrination start having shared thoughts, memories and dreams - their minds become interconnected and they become slaves to the controlling presence (the "catalyst" AI). That makes the catalyst directly responsible for what they do.

2. So Hitler was also innocent ?

Hitler's case was that he wanted to kill of other races to benifit his own. Completly different cases.

[Applepie_Svk]

dreman9999 wrote...
Hitler's case was that he wanted to kill of other races to benifit his own. Completly different cases.

He benefits from genocide, without killing species he would never built fleets of Reapers ... so tell me what´s different?
Catalyst came to conclusion that genocide and harvest is the best way to fulfill his programming despite that he was originally programmed to bring a peace.

Hitler want achieve world dominance thru war and genocide...

Catalyst want achieve solution thru war,harvest - genocide...

???  CUI LICITUS EST FINIS, ETIAM LICENT MEDIA   ???

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 11 août 2012 - 04:49 .

[D1100111101]

3DandBeyond wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

But the reaping process is also about uploading the minds of millions of organics into the machine body, not just about the DNA goo. So yeah, I can see why he would see it as preserving

But after millions of years of doing this with the minds of trillions that never wanted this, wouldn't there be one mental voice saying, "kid you're crazy"?  Or, "this ain't a good idea.  Stop it!"  I mean reapers can talk and all and the logic of all those minds used as computing power would I think try to tell the silly little program that this is not logical.

The chances are that it is very logical, that's the problem. The Catalyst knows that eventually organics create synthetics and then the synthetics wipe out all the humans. Presumable because, well the Catalyst is a synthetic and he killed the organics that made him. Anyway, so knowing this, the Reaper solution is the solution of logic, if the goal is to preserve organic life. So imagine if the computing power of trillions of beings is harnessed, the computing power increases exponentially, making the system ever more logical.

The theoretical debate is basically what does it mean to be organic and how does that dictate our decisions? If we remove pain, sorrow, happiness, love, hate etc. from the human equation, are we still 'human'? After thousands of years of not feeling emotion (like the consciousness in the Reapers, would we be able to sympathize (not empathize) with beings that do feel emotion?