1085 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

Hitler's case was that he wanted to kill of other races to benifit his own. Completly different cases.

Actually not that different.  The kid supposedly likes Synthesis.  He says people try for perfection through tech.  So people according to him, want to be like him because he is perfection.  His view of things is that that's the end state of evolution and that evolution will get there eventually.  Well this is moronic.  Synthetic means not naturally occurring, so someday evolution is going to form an organic (naturally occuring) and synthetic (not naturally occurring) lifeform when evolution is a natural process?  But what he would do is make it occur unnaturally.  And the kid says the reapers are a part of him-you even said he is the reapers in your opinion.  If he is then what he is doing just by harvesting people is to benefit his own race, of reapers.  It does that.  And he came up with them as a solution.

Ok, this sounds a lot like Hitler.  The final solution.  He saw not just his race but his idea of his race as perfection, so anyone whose face did not have the right measurements or that didn't have the right eye color was imperfect and not of "his race" though he himself looked far from his own idea of perfection.  The ****s performed eugenics to try to "improve" the genetics of their "race".  They formed Lebensborn in order to do this and no doubt if the could-if they known enough-they would have loved Synthesis (though Control would have worked and been 2nd and Destroy would have appealed to them on another level).  It's all there-totalitarian godhood, eugenics, and genocide-sure sounds familiar to me.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 11 août 2012 - 05:00 .

[D1100111101]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

The Catalyst nor the Reapers are trying to be at war.....they are not organic, so they simply view what they are doing is performing a task(the purpose they were designed for)....

Think of a bee harvester......he doesn't hate bees, but the bees probably don't want to be bothered by the harvester so they try to sting him and swarm him....

It's the same with Reapers and us organics.....we are just bothering the Reapers while they perform their purpose.....that's how the Catalyst views it

But if he is just using logic then it is obvious he isn't using logic at all.  No one said he hated people.  The result of what he is doing is evil and hateful, but his intent is irrelevant.

What is relevant is he specifically says he was created to find balance and peace between organics and synthetics.  He causes war and creates imbalance between them.  The geth and the quarians were in balance, tentatively for a very long time when Sovereign interceded.  Sovereign created mistrust of all geth by using the heretic to kill people.  You all keep ignoring that the kid doesn't admit to killing anyone and he is not ascending or preserving everyone, some are just killed.  When Shepard fights the reaper on Rannoch, if s/he does not kill it, Shepard dies.  As in dead.

Deception is an indication of understanding.  That doesn't mean he cares, but if I kill a bunch of bees I know darn well I've killed bees.

The kid also has a real odd way of fulfilling his purpose.  He seeds the galaxy with tech to advance organics along a path that makes it possible or probable they will create synthetics which he thinks will try to kill organics.  So, stop seeding the galaxy with tech.  But he does it so his reapers are needed, but they are the synthetics creating war and imbalance, instead of peace and balance-his purpose.  There's no way his logic if it existed would tell him that makes sense.  He's causing the problem so he can solve it and instead of getting rid of the synthetics causing the problem (the reapers), he gets rid of organics that didn't create them.  It would make more sense if he was just some crazy immature program collecting people specimens.  This sounds a lot like the ending of "Under the Dome".

@dreman9999,
I do understand that a simple program may have a different view of life, but he is not a simple AI.  He says he isn't and you think he doesn't lie.  If he doesn't lie he would understand the concept of being alive.  He would understand what it means.  He would also have an understanding (even if devoid of emotion) that people consider what he is doing to be killing them.  It's not that he doesn't care or that I think he should care-he would understand it is counter to logic. 

You think he would not give you destroy to use if the choices were his.  If you think he doesn't understand being alive as we do, then why wouldn't he give you destroy or control?  If he does not understand that death is the cessation of being, existing, then why would he "care" about being destroyed?  Why aren't the choices his if he does not understand death?  And don't say he's preserving people, because not all people are being preserved.  A lot are simply dying.

How would any artificial being know what it means to be alive? To use your own analogy, lets say you did kill a lot of bees, do you feel bad? Most people don't because we have no concept of what it's like to be a bee. And even within our own species we can't relate to one another. The rich have difficulty relating to the lives of the poor. I'm sure the Catalyst knows that organics think he's an evil bastard, but I'm sure your dog wasn't your biggest fan when you took him to the vet to get his testicles cut off so he stopped humping the couch. Actually neutering your dog is even worse, at least the Catalyst thinks he's doing good, when you neuter your dog your doing it because you're tired of watching it hump your friend's leg.

And why would he ever think that the death of the physical body is the cessation of being? Scientists don't even think that,the brain and consciousness dictate our 'life'. That's why they don't stop brain fucntion during surgery but they'll stop a heart for a few minutes. The Catalyst has, literally, an army of giant sentient robots, none of which are purely organic, but all of which think. The debate you seem to be having is what it means to be alive.

[KiwiQuiche]

...The thread title really confuses me; who the hell does trust the genocidal lunatic Starbrat to begin with?

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Hitler's case was that he wanted to kill of other races to benifit his own. Completly different cases.

Actually not that different.  The kid supposedly likes Synthesis.  He says people try for perfection through tech.  So people according to him, want to be like him because he is perfection.  His view of things is that that's the end state of evolution and that evolution will get there eventually.  Well this is moronic.  Synthetic means not naturally occurring, so someday evolution is going to form an organic (naturally occuring) and synthetic (not naturally occurring) lifeform when evolution is a natural process?  But what he would do is make it occur unnaturally.  And the kid says the reapers are a part of him-you even said he is the reapers in your opinion.  If he is then what he is doing just by harvesting people is to benefit his own race, of reapers.  It does that.  And he came up with them as a solution.

Ok, this sounds a lot like Hitler.  The final solution.  He saw not just his race but his idea of his race as perfection, so anyone whose face did not have the right measurements or that didn't have the right eye color was imperfect and not of "his race" though he himself looked far from his own idea of perfection.  The ****s performed eugenics to try to "improve" the genetics of their "race".  They formed Lebensborn in order to do this and no doubt if the could-if they known enough-they would have loved Synthesis (though Control would have worked and been 2nd and Destroy would have appealed to them on another level).  It's all there-totalitarian godhood, eugenics, and genocide-sure sounds familiar to me.

He's not doing it for synthetics. Remeber, he is reaper both organics and synthics and his goal is to perserve both races. Hitler only wanted his own veiw of a perfect race to be in place in over the other races and kill off the other races. Added, hitler though of that concept on his own. The catalyst did not.

Modifié par dreman9999, 11 août 2012 - 05:08 .

[garrusfan1]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

...The thread title really confuses me; who the hell does trust the genocidal lunatic Starbrat to begin with?

Hmmmm I don't know I sure as f*** don't

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Hitler's case was that he wanted to kill of other races to benifit his own. Completly different cases.

He benefits from genocide, without killing species he would never built fleets of Reapers ... so tell me what´s different?
Catalyst came to conclusion that genocide and harvest is the best way to fulfill his programming despite that he was originally programmed to bring a peace.

Hitler want achieve world dominance thru war and genocide...

Catalyst want achieve solution thru war,harvest - genocide...

???  CUI LICITUS EST FINIS, ETIAM LICENT MEDIA   ???

His goal is not to build the fleet but to preserve the race he harveses. The reapers are just a means to an end.
 Not the same case as Hitler.
Added, it came to the concluution that persering is the best case. It does not see what he is doing is genocide.

Modifié par dreman9999, 11 août 2012 - 05:17 .

[MassEffect762]

Heh. This thread made me want to watch Tron Legacys ending.



I'll likely youtube Leviathan as well.

[KiwiQuiche]

Lmao Godwin's Law is strong in this thread.

[3DandBeyond]

D1100111101 wrote...

How would any artificial being know what it means to be alive? To use your own analogy, lets say you did kill a lot of bees, do you feel bad? Most people don't because we have no concept of what it's like to be a bee. And even within our own species we can't relate to one another. The rich have difficulty relating to the lives of the poor. I'm sure the Catalyst knows that organics think he's an evil bastard, but I'm sure your dog wasn't your biggest fan when you took him to the vet to get his testicles cut off so he stopped humping the couch. Actually neutering your dog is even worse, at least the Catalyst thinks he's doing good, when you neuter your dog your doing it because you're tired of watching it hump your friend's leg.

And why would he ever think that the death of the physical body is the cessation of being? Scientists don't even think that,the brain and consciousness dictate our 'life'. That's why they don't stop brain fucntion during surgery but they'll stop a heart for a few minutes. The Catalyst has, literally, an army of giant sentient robots, none of which are purely organic, but all of which think. The debate you seem to be having is what it means to be alive.

How did EDI?  It certainly could understand what it means to be alive-it wouldn't know what it is like to be alive maybe but it understands the concept of it.  The kid also seems to understand the difference between existing and not existing because dreman believes it wouldn't want you to choose destroy because it would destroy him.  He also has the benefit of a lot of organic minds within the reapers if we are to believe they were preserved and added to the intelligence of the reapers.

Ok never mind.  Not really interested in this discussion with you on your view about dogs and such.  Your attitude on that is rather repellant.  I can only think you have no idea why it's done.

I wasn't having a debate on what it means to be alive.  I said the kid as an advanced AI could understand the concept.  And since Shepard says he's killing people and he then says he isn't killing people, instead of asking Shepard what "killing people" means, I think it's safe to say he knows what it means.  EDI understood that before being unshackled as did the geth (Legion did) and so did the AI that was stealing money on the Citadel.  He tried to kill Shepard by blowing himself up.  He also understood he would cease to exist.

He would think it's the cessation of being because all of those minds in those sentient reapers would tell him that it is.  He knew his own creators didn't want to be reapers and he did it anyway.

The only reason some rich people or even most rich people have trouble relating to the poor is because they don't want to.  But they could relate if they tried.  It's not because they can't, it's because they won't.

And seriously your statement about the brain and why they don't stop it during surgery is really funny.  I don't even know where to begin with that one.  I'm sorry I laughed out loud because I thought it was a joke at first.  You do understand that patients that are brain dead are not considered alive truly, right?  So they don't "stop" the brain because it would kill the patient, and they even many times do brain surgery with fully conscious patients.

And yes, if I killed a lot of bees I would feel bad because they are beneficial and we've already lost a lot of them (particularly honey bees) which could really cause all of us a problem.  Beyond that, I don't run around killing anything unless I need to.  But there to is some science that can help me feel better when squashing bugs that bite or sting.  They can cause disease.  They can cause allergic reactions.  They can do "bad" things. 

The kid is killing people not for doing something bad but to stop bad things from happening to them supposedly-even though he wants them to be synthesized to become perfect and he's really just trying to synthesize them.  And now that Shepard's there it isn't that his old solution won't work anymore (it still does).  It's because he finally has a way to make synthesis work if Shepard will choose it.  He couldn't make it happen, but Shepard can. 

[dreman9999]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lmao Godwin's Law is strong in this thread.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Hitler's case was that he wanted to kill of other races to benifit his own. Completly different cases.

Actually not that different.  The kid supposedly likes Synthesis.  He says people try for perfection through tech.  So people according to him, want to be like him because he is perfection.  His view of things is that that's the end state of evolution and that evolution will get there eventually.  Well this is moronic.  Synthetic means not naturally occurring, so someday evolution is going to form an organic (naturally occuring) and synthetic (not naturally occurring) lifeform when evolution is a natural process?  But what he would do is make it occur unnaturally.  And the kid says the reapers are a part of him-you even said he is the reapers in your opinion.  If he is then what he is doing just by harvesting people is to benefit his own race, of reapers.  It does that.  And he came up with them as a solution.

Ok, this sounds a lot like Hitler.  The final solution.  He saw not just his race but his idea of his race as perfection, so anyone whose face did not have the right measurements or that didn't have the right eye color was imperfect and not of "his race" though he himself looked far from his own idea of perfection.  The ****s performed eugenics to try to "improve" the genetics of their "race".  They formed Lebensborn in order to do this and no doubt if the could-if they known enough-they would have loved Synthesis (though Control would have worked and been 2nd and Destroy would have appealed to them on another level).  It's all there-totalitarian godhood, eugenics, and genocide-sure sounds familiar to me.

He's not doing it for synthetics. Remeber, he is reaper both organics and synthics and his goal is to perserve both races. Hitler only wanted his own veiw of a perfect race to be in place in over the other races and kill off the other races. Added, hitler though of that concept on his own. The catalyst did not.

Ok please read and think dreman.  The kid wants to make synthesis happen because that creates his ideal race.  He sees perfection as tech for organics and understanding for synthetics.  The fact that he thinks perfection exists or is THE goal is in and of itself crazy.

He has been trying to achieve synthesis and can't.  A synthesized race is his idea of perfection just as an Aryan race was Hitler's.  Hitler's cronies tried many ways to achieve the perfect Aryans and even created Lebensborn.  Every attempt at creating the perfect race was less than fully successful-they'd steal Aryan looking babies and do experimentation.  The kid also wants a perfect race.  His goal has changed because he changed it.  His creators didn't come up with synthesis, nor would nature, but he is sure it will happen and he wants it to happen now. 

[3DandBeyond]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lmao Godwin's Law is strong in this thread.

Well it's kind of hard not to get to the **** thing when so much does point to it.  But this is nowhere near the first thread where it's been mentioned so it's amazing it didn't come out sooner.  Wonder if the kid looks like Hitler as a boy.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

D1100111101 wrote...

How would any artificial being know what it means to be alive? To use your own analogy, lets say you did kill a lot of bees, do you feel bad? Most people don't because we have no concept of what it's like to be a bee. And even within our own species we can't relate to one another. The rich have difficulty relating to the lives of the poor. I'm sure the Catalyst knows that organics think he's an evil bastard, but I'm sure your dog wasn't your biggest fan when you took him to the vet to get his testicles cut off so he stopped humping the couch. Actually neutering your dog is even worse, at least the Catalyst thinks he's doing good, when you neuter your dog your doing it because you're tired of watching it hump your friend's leg.

And why would he ever think that the death of the physical body is the cessation of being? Scientists don't even think that,the brain and consciousness dictate our 'life'. That's why they don't stop brain fucntion during surgery but they'll stop a heart for a few minutes. The Catalyst has, literally, an army of giant sentient robots, none of which are purely organic, but all of which think. The debate you seem to be having is what it means to be alive.

How did EDI?  It certainly could understand what it means to be alive-it wouldn't know what it is like to be alive maybe but it understands the concept of it.  The kid also seems to understand the difference between existing and not existing because dreman believes it wouldn't want you to choose destroy because it would destroy him.  He also has the benefit of a lot of organic minds within the reapers if we are to believe they were preserved and added to the intelligence of the reapers.

Ok never mind.  Not really interested in this discussion with you on your view about dogs and such.  Your attitude on that is rather repellant.  I can only think you have no idea why it's done.

I wasn't having a debate on what it means to be alive.  I said the kid as an advanced AI could understand the concept.  And since Shepard says he's killing people and he then says he isn't killing people, instead of asking Shepard what "killing people" means, I think it's safe to say he knows what it means.  EDI understood that before being unshackled as did the geth (Legion did) and so did the AI that was stealing money on the Citadel.  He tried to kill Shepard by blowing himself up.  He also understood he would cease to exist.

He would think it's the cessation of being because all of those minds in those sentient reapers would tell him that it is.  He knew his own creators didn't want to be reapers and he did it anyway.

The only reason some rich people or even most rich people have trouble relating to the poor is because they don't want to.  But they could relate if they tried.  It's not because they can't, it's because they won't.

And seriously your statement about the brain and why they don't stop it during surgery is really funny.  I don't even know where to begin with that one.  I'm sorry I laughed out loud because I thought it was a joke at first.  You do understand that patients that are brain dead are not considered alive truly, right?  So they don't "stop" the brain because it would kill the patient, and they even many times do brain surgery with fully conscious patients.

And yes, if I killed a lot of bees I would feel bad because they are beneficial and we've already lost a lot of them (particularly honey bees) which could really cause all of us a problem.  Beyond that, I don't run around killing anything unless I need to.  But there to is some science that can help me feel better when squashing bugs that bite or sting.  They can cause disease.  They can cause allergic reactions.  They can do "bad" things. 

The kid is killing people not for doing something bad but to stop bad things from happening to them supposedly-even though he wants them to be synthesized to become perfect and he's really just trying to synthesize them.  And now that Shepard's there it isn't that his old solution won't work anymore (it still does).  It's because he finally has a way to make synthesis work if Shepard will choose it.  He couldn't make it happen, but Shepard can. 

Here is whatyounot understanding about EDI.... EDI is free. EDI she can do whatshe want and has the freedom to take the time to understand , even to rewrite her programing. She is not a slave.
That is the solution.
The problem here is the the catalyst is a slave to it's programing and to logic. Logic is black and white and absolute. It has no morality. It would not think on the case of morality ever. It will only think of what it has to do. What it is programed to do.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Hitler's case was that he wanted to kill of other races to benifit his own. Completly different cases.

Actually not that different.  The kid supposedly likes Synthesis.  He says people try for perfection through tech.  So people according to him, want to be like him because he is perfection.  His view of things is that that's the end state of evolution and that evolution will get there eventually.  Well this is moronic.  Synthetic means not naturally occurring, so someday evolution is going to form an organic (naturally occuring) and synthetic (not naturally occurring) lifeform when evolution is a natural process?  But what he would do is make it occur unnaturally.  And the kid says the reapers are a part of him-you even said he is the reapers in your opinion.  If he is then what he is doing just by harvesting people is to benefit his own race, of reapers.  It does that.  And he came up with them as a solution.

Ok, this sounds a lot like Hitler.  The final solution.  He saw not just his race but his idea of his race as perfection, so anyone whose face did not have the right measurements or that didn't have the right eye color was imperfect and not of "his race" though he himself looked far from his own idea of perfection.  The ****s performed eugenics to try to "improve" the genetics of their "race".  They formed Lebensborn in order to do this and no doubt if the could-if they known enough-they would have loved Synthesis (though Control would have worked and been 2nd and Destroy would have appealed to them on another level).  It's all there-totalitarian godhood, eugenics, and genocide-sure sounds familiar to me.

He's not doing it for synthetics. Remeber, he is reaper both organics and synthics and his goal is to perserve both races. Hitler only wanted his own veiw of a perfect race to be in place in over the other races and kill off the other races. Added, hitler though of that concept on his own. The catalyst did not.

Ok please read and think dreman.  The kid wants to make synthesis happen because that creates his ideal race.  He sees perfection as tech for organics and understanding for synthetics.  The fact that he thinks perfection exists or is THE goal is in and of itself crazy.

He has been trying to achieve synthesis and can't.  A synthesized race is his idea of perfection just as an Aryan race was Hitler's.  Hitler's cronies tried many ways to achieve the perfect Aryans and even created Lebensborn.  Every attempt at creating the perfect race was less than fully successful-they'd steal Aryan looking babies and do experimentation.  The kid also wants a perfect race.  His goal has changed because he changed it.  His creators didn't come up with synthesis, nor would nature, but he is sure it will happen and he wants it to happen now. 

Machines by nature thinks in absolutes. A machine has to learn to think in abstracts. A machines think numericly, this by it's nature is  absolutes and logic. 
Being that it thinks in absolutes it not going to causre about the impossible. It will only care about it's limits. Being that it only cares about it's limits, it will only do what it can with those limits. If it end wit an imperfict solution, it will do that imperfict solution.

Modifié par dreman9999, 11 août 2012 - 05:45 .

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

Here is whatyounot understanding about EDI.... EDI is free. EDI she can do whatshe want and has the freedom to take the time to understand , even to rewrite her programing. She is not a slave.
That is the solution.
The problem here is the the catalyst is a slave to it's programing and to logic. Logic is black and white and absolute. It has no morality. It would not think on the case of morality ever. It will only think of what it has to do. What it is programed to do.

 I understand about EDI.  Now you think the kid is not just a tragic figure and a victim, but a slave.  But you also said he fooled his programming.  Ok, enjoy.  I wasn't talking primarily about morality.  I was talking about even just what the kid would know.  But since he has been deceptive, he must have some concept of what others think is right or wrong.  Knowledge not emotional concern, but knowledge as in using all those trillions of brains to form one single thought.  Or is he too advanced?  Or not advanced enough?

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 11 août 2012 - 06:05 .

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

Machines by nature thinks in absolutes. A machine has to learn to think in abstracts. A machines think numericly, this by it's nature is  absolutes and logic. 
Being that it thinks in absolutes it not going to causre about the impossible. It will only care about it's limits. Being that it only cares about it's limits, it will only do what it can with those limits. If it end wit an imperfict solution, it will do that imperfict solution.

Advanced AIs don't.  They aren't mere machines.  And now we're back to shackled or not.  Ok, you have a shackled/not shackled, dumb, advanced AI that is just a machine, that is limited by its programming but fooled its programming, that has not been killing people "technically" even though actually and technically it is.  It can only do what is can within its limits which means it can put its creators in a reaper against their will.  It doesn't understand dying or ceasing to exist but it never made the choices because it wouldn't want to be destroyed.  Okey dokey.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

dreman what is with your determination to misspell everything you can?

It makes your already nonsensical posts that much more inane.

[JShepppp]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Machines by nature thinks in absolutes. A machine has to learn to think in abstracts. A machines think numericly, this by it's nature is  absolutes and logic. 
Being that it thinks in absolutes it not going to causre about the impossible. It will only care about it's limits. Being that it only cares about it's limits, it will only do what it can with those limits. If it end wit an imperfict solution, it will do that imperfict solution.

Advanced AIs don't.  They aren't mere machines.  And now we're back to shackled or not.  Ok, you have a shackled/not shackled, dumb, advanced AI that is just a machine, that is limited by its programming but fooled its programming, that has not been killing people "technically" even though actually and technically it is.  It can only do what is can within its limits which means it can put its creators in a reaper against their will.  It doesn't understand dying or ceasing to exist but it never made the choices because it wouldn't want to be destroyed.  Okey dokey.

Ok. I'm normally not a blunt person on the forums, but I have to dissect this "what is this I don't even" statement. I'll assume some of what you're saying is needless hyperbole, but I'm still going to look at every statement.

Advanced AIs don't.  They aren't mere machines.

All advanced AIs in Mass Effect are TRYING to get the kind of morality, abstract thinking, and EDI says she "feels" alive, but only synthesis does she express the level of emotions of organics. They are NOT on the same emotional level as organics. This is a fundamental difference, advanced or not. No machine we see pre-synthesis expresses abstract thinking, only a desire to understand it. All machines don't understand organic morality before Synthesis. The Catalyst is included in this timeframe. It does not mean the Catalyst does not understand morality, but it does support the idea that it doesn't. If all evidence points to synthetics not having organic understanding, then the prudent course is to give the Catalyst the same benefit of doubt.

And now we're back to shackled or not.  Ok, you have a shackled/not shackled, dumb, advanced AI that is just a machine

It is shackled because it follows and is limited by its programming.

It is not dumb in the conventional sense of the word - it created the Reapers, which are beyond the comprehension of any organic technologically, so it is FAR SMARTER than any organic. If you are saying it is MORALLY dumb, then that goes without saying as it does not understand morality. If you are saying it's dumb because it thinks uploading minds is preserving organics, then that's a difference of perspective, because the minds of the organics are saved. It readily accepts that the physical bodies are not and readily accepts the Reapers as an imperfect solution because of this. It comes down to a difference of perspective. Some say that organics have a "soul" and thus cannot be preserved mechanically, but this is irrelevant because there is no evidence and it is only pure opinion and speculation. Not saying that you say that.

that is limited by its programming but fooled its programming

What is this I don't even...it did not fool its programming if it is limited by it. By definition, it must follow it and it says it still does. If it does follow its programming, it has not fooled it. If it is shackled, by definition, it cannot fool its programming.

that has not been killing people "technically" even though actually and technically it is.

Technically it has killed organic bodies and flesh. Technically it has saved organic minds. It defines life differently. Why is your definition better? Who made you the person who defines life for the entire universe? If synthetics, as life, can be moved around as minds, why can't organics, as life, have the same? If they aren't the same, then are organics and synthetics so fundamentally different, as the Catalyst rightfully suggests?

All that matters is that organics initially do NOT want to be Reapers and thus fight for that right. 

The Catalyst kills those who get in its way, just like Shepard kills non-Reaper forces who get in his way (e.g. mercs). Killing those who get in the way of its solution is a byproduct of its solution and programming and is not the primary thing it is trying to do. You cannot blame it for outright killing those who disagree with its solution because the ultimate bigger picture is bigger than any single cycle and thus it will always be justified by its programming; it is internally consistent without a moral code. 

It can only do what is can within its limits which means it can put its creators in a reaper against their will.

Yes. Its creators never told it to obey them; the creators told the Catalyst to find peace. Finding a solution (peace) was more important than listening to the creators, so their objections were overruled by its programming. Since it is following its programming, it is not rogue. It did not turn on its creators because it was not made to serve them. It did not "rebel".

It doesn't understand dying or ceasing to exist but it never made the choices because it wouldn't want to be destroyed.

??? It COULD NOT ACTIVATE THE CRUCIBLE. Period. Also, it states that AFTER THE CRUCIBLE IS CONNECTED, the Reaper solution becomes less valid. Let me give a rough numerical example here of how much each solution is "worth" to the Catalyst:

Pre-Crucible-Attached-to-Citadel:

Reapers: 10
Synthesis (but it doesn't work): 3
Destroy: 4
Control: 5

All that matters is that the Reapers were the preferred solution, not as the best, but as the least worst. 

After-Crucible-Attached-to-Citadel:

Reapers (not as effective because they failed to be "airtight" and stop the Crucible): 6
Synthesis (works): 9
Control: 8
Destroy: 7

There you go. The numbers are arbirary and ordinal (a value of 6 is not twice as good as 3, only just better than 3) but you can see how the way thigns played out do NOT violate any programming based on what the Catalyst tells us.

[JShepppp]

Come to think of it, I didn't see dialogue in the OP that indicated that Leviathan was the first failed attempt at Synthesis, only a summary. Is there dialogue that details that somewhere? If not, how did that info come about?

[The_Crazy_Hand]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

dreman what is with your determination to misspell everything you can?

It makes your already nonsensical posts that much more inane.

I dunno, nitpicking the guy on spelling...........I'd rather we beat up on the catalyst defenders for the right reasons............

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

dreman what is with your determination to misspell everything you can?

It makes your already nonsensical posts that much more inane.

I dunno, nitpicking the guy on spelling...........I'd rather we beat up on the catalyst defenders for the right reasons............

Constantly killing all advanced life in the galaxy to build giant death cuttlefish to kill people to build giant death cuttlefish is all well and horrible.

But bad spelling? That is something truly monstrous.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 11 août 2012 - 07:12 .

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Here is whatyounot understanding about EDI.... EDI is free. EDI she can do whatshe want and has the freedom to take the time to understand , even to rewrite her programing. She is not a slave.
That is the solution.
The problem here is the the catalyst is a slave to it's programing and to logic. Logic is black and white and absolute. It has no morality. It would not think on the case of morality ever. It will only think of what it has to do. What it is programed to do.

 I understand about EDI.  Now you think the kid is not just a tragic figure and a victim, but a slave.  But you also said he fooled his programming.  Ok, enjoy.  I wasn't talking primarily about morality.  I was talking about even just what the kid would know.  But since he has been deceptive, he must have some concept of what others think is right or wrong.  Knowledge not emotional concern, but knowledge as in using all those trillions of brains to form one single thought.  Or is he too advanced?  Or not advanced enough?

I never said he fooled his programing and I always said he was a slave. As I said before he is doing his programing. The thing is he is doing it by the turms of his defintion. An AI has the freedom to do it's programing as it sees fit aslong as it is with in his programing. It's not a case of deseption, it's a case of different perseption. As I said before what he believes is different. And to decave is not a case of morality, it's a case of logic. Decepton is a calculation.
And you keep not understand he has no morals.What trillions of being think and feel will not matter to him.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Constantly killing all advanced life in the galaxy to build giant death cuttlefish to kill people to build giant death cuttlefish is all well and horrible.

But bad spelling? That is something truly monstrous.

Oh yeah?  Well........

SO BE IT!!!!!!!

Modifié par The_Crazy_Hand, 11 août 2012 - 07:19 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Constantly killing all advanced life in the galaxy to build giant death cuttlefish to kill people to build giant death cuttlefish is all well and horrible.

But bad spelling? That is something truly monstrous.

Oh yeah?  Well........

SO BE IT!!!!!!!

Though to be fair I'm pretty certain that star brat and his pet abominations cover most of the categories for "Obviously Evil".

[Postman778]

IsaacShep wrote...

But the reaping process is also about uploading the minds of millions of organics into the machine body, not just about the DNA goo. So yeah, I can see why he would see it as preserving

That is something I didn´t fully understand when I read about the Leviathan DLC. The Leviathan went rogue (I got the main information’s are from a German page). At the beginning of that thread it is said, that Leviathan was a failed try to build a reaper. The species intended to ascend into a reaper form was not willing to do so, the result was a being that turned against the spacebrat and kills other reapers.
If a species is not willing to be turned into a reaper form, why aren´t there more rogue leviathans out there.
If a reaper consists all minds of millions of organics, who were fighting the reapers, why is that reaper fighting for the spacebrat in the next cycle? If the minds are “brainwashed” or whatever, you cannot say the mind is uploaded and saved.

D1100111101 wrote...

Postman778 wrote...

DNA is different for everyone of us. The DNA of species (we know) is build up the same way, guanin, cytosin, adenin and thymin. Only the way it is connected is different for each of us.

If you liquify 5 different kind of frogs and put the goo in one bucket, you cannot say you preserved the species.
But that is what the spacebrat is doing.
Do you preserve the cows and vegetables by eating them and mixing them in your stomach?

The spacething has such idiotic solutions...

No, but if I blended 5 different frogs together and took the goo to a scientist they could figure out exactly what frogs I blended and probably clone them. And I don't think I need to tell you that digesting food breaks up the DNA strands of whatever you eat, fragmented DNA isn't functional and since the Reapers aren't eating humans, they probably got the DNA out intact. I mean if I get squashed by a falling airplane or fall into a wood chipper they can still recover my DNA.

I'm not a scientist, but I do know that real scientists managed to grow an ear on a mouse's back, clone a sheep, and make glow in the dark fish. I'd say that's not bad for a short lived species. What a group of hyper intelligent robots come up with in deep space after hundred of thousands of years is probably much better than glow in the dark fish or a five frog smoothie. A couple intact DNA strands and a consciousness could equal a brand new human, or they might be splicing together the perfect starnd of DNA to preserve the ideal human. I don't know, I'm not a giant space robot, but it seems likely. We're already splicing DNA together today.

Sure DNA is not preserved by eating meat. It is a different process. Playing with DNA is somehow “easy” today for scientist. If you have your five frogs smoothie you might be able to figure out which species are in there.
Your second aspect is pretty interesting, building up the perfect DNA for preserving the perfect human. Although that would speak against the uploading of people´s mind.