1085 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

Hrothdane wrote...

If the Reaper Consciousness/Starbrat looks this bad from his own dialogue, imagine once we have the context of Leviathan's point of view, if we get to talk to him. He might have some choice words for everyone's least favorite child-shaped AI.

I can't wait to her him speak.

MY BODY IS READY.

[The Angry One]

Taking those dialogue strings as fact right now is an exercise in futility anyway.
They contradict each other multiple times, if BioWare puts those in as they are, then... yikes.

MegaSovereign wrote...

You're BOTH wrong.

The answer to your question is yes, Legion does have a soul.

Are you confused yet?

No, the answer is Reaper IFF.

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Oh for god's sake.
It changed it's own directive. It came up with a brand new method to solve the problem of it's new directive. It did this consciously, and creatively.

It is not a machine doing what it's told, it is fully aware of it's own actions.

Let me make it clear for you so you understand.
A machine does what it is programed to do and is a slave to it's programing if it can't change it. An AI can choose how it does it's programing.
It's creator gave the catalyst an opened ended quetion with no real awner to how to solve it. From the start it was allowed to pick how to solve how to solve problem is was give. It is with in it's programing to pick how to solve it.
As long as it is seeking to solve this problem it has not gone ageinst it's programing. It is still doing that. It matter not how it does it, if he find a salution  he is doing his programing.
His salution is to preserve organics. To the catalyst , this means he found a salution even if it is flawed.

Let me make this clear so YOU understand.
The solution, to preserve organics, is the solution to a problem IT MADE UP.
It's creator given directive was to end conflict between organics and synthetics. That synthetics would wipe out all organics is something it determined on it's own.

How many time must it be said to you that it's creator were the ones that felt there was a problem and forced it on the catalyst to solve it?
Where is it stated that the catalyst on it's own thought there was a synthetic /organic problem? It never pick what the problem was, it only picked the salution is.

Modifié par dreman9999, 07 août 2012 - 07:05 .

[dreman9999]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Do not use Orson Welles to mock me.

I always understood that he was not needed.

He's nothing more than the teller of a VERY unfunny joke.

....:mellow:I'm not mocking you.

[Ithurael]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

Also a point in this I hope someone can help me with. The reapers were described as "Synthetic representations of the ones who made us"

If I understand my ME1 and 2 lore - the Reapers were NEVER synthetic (absolute) they were Synthetic/Organic constructs. Billions of minds in one form. ME3 continues to wreck the Reaper mythos by saying the Reapers are just "machines" like the Geth. They are not just machines.

I'll Youtube it and read a wiki then I'll see how it plays out. Remember guys -this will NOT affect the ending. You will just get more dialog with starkid - nothing more.

Think about it this way. If I make a robot out of chichen bones...Is it synthesis?

I would say you made that a bit over-general. Though if it is for humorus purposes I do indeed like the joke.

Do I think that the reapers == synthesis. oh ya. They are living organics that were melted down against their will and used to create a reaper superstructure and conciousness. That is Synthesis! And look at the green ending...

Honestly though, the reapers just got screwed over in ME3. I loved the idea of "forcing evolution" on a race (in the way the reapers did) for "reasons unknown". It also made the reapers seem more dangerous to me. You are not just dealing with a machine, you are dealing with a living creature that has billions of consciousness' held within it.

[ThaDPG]

Nyoka wrote...

Once all the planned DLC for ME3 are out the conversation with the Catalyst is going to be seven hours long, he'll have sooo many excuses and rationalizations...

And we'll have enough war assets to roll all over the reapers

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...
How many time must it be said to you that it's creator were the once that felt there was a problem and forced it on the catalyst to solve?
Where isit sated that the catalyst on it's own thought there was a synthetic /organic problem? It never pick what the problem was, it only picked the salution is.

They felt there was a problem with conflict. *Not* with organic life being in danger of total extinction.

[MegaSovereign]

Handsome Devil wrote...

Its core programming didn't change, but its directive did. It's still considered going rogue.

Here's an analogy:

EDI was created to serve the Normandy crew. EDI still went rogue against Cerberus, but she still serves the Normandy.

Just leaving this here, again.

[Greed1914]

Flog61 wrote...

All i get from this is that they are publically acknowledging that they really want you to pick synthesis

This suggests that with dlc they'll try and convince as many people to the dark side as possible, and then declare it canon for ME4

Pretty much.  The outcome of Synthesis in the EC seemed like it was deliberately overdone because Bioware couldn't believe that people didn't think that it was the "best" ending so they had to beat us over the head with it.  Now, there is even more emphasis on how this is supposed to be the ideal solution.  It's still baffling to me that this is supposed to be the "best" option when the whole series emphasized strength through diversity.  Even Javik admitted that the homogeneity of the Prothean empire was its greatest weakness, and yet we're supposed to believe that this is the solution to the "problem?" 

[AresKeith]

@dreman9999 no, he started the Reaper solution, he killed his own creators against their will and order, the three end choices we're forced to make are on the Citadel which the Reapers built and are powered by the Crucible, he's behind it

Modifié par AresKeith, 07 août 2012 - 07:08 .

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

Also if the synthetics truly are the superior species ( which I don't believe for a second that they are) and they wipe us out because we could not adapt to this change in the environment then we deserve to die. Yea it sucks for me but that is evolution for you. The stronger better adaptable organism survives to propagate and the weaker one dies off, what right do the reapers have in meddling in evolution?

[dreman9999]

Nitrocuban wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So officially he is a shackled AI.....

He's not shackeled! He killed his creators!
The definition of an unshackeled AI!

He is shackled, but its creators forgot to implement "Don´t kill your creators, mkay?" in his thought routines. But he still works perfectly within its set of does and donts. "Preserve organic life, hinder war, search for an enduring chance of peace." but bends the rules in absurd ways. Not cause he is evil but because he is not able to think freely.
The catalyst is like a dog, teach him not to eat from the kitchen table and he will just drop the food on the floor and then eat it. And poo on the carpet.

Nah, it's creator forgot to put a"Don't remake our bodies into a giant robot" in it's routine.

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

@dreman9999 no, he started the Reaper solution, he killed his own creators against their will and order, the three end choices we're forced to make are on the Citadel which the Reapers built and are powered by the Crucible, he's behind it

1. Perserved creators.

2. He was give allowence from the start to pick how to solve the problem it was given. It picking the reaper salution is not going ageinst it's programing. For it to go ageint it's programing it would have not try and not solve the problem given to it at a all.

[Greed1914]

Nyoka wrote...

Once all the planned DLC for ME3 are out the conversation with the Catalyst is going to be seven hours long, he'll have sooo many excuses and rationalizations...

It'll actually be pretty short.  Just like we have now, its answers will amount to either, "Nope, you're wrong and I'm right," or "Too bad, do as I say." 

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
How many time must it be said to you that it's creator were the once that felt there was a problem and forced it on the catalyst to solve?
Where isit sated that the catalyst on it's own thought there was a synthetic /organic problem? It never pick what the problem was, it only picked the salution is.

They felt there was a problem with conflict. *Not* with organic life being in danger of total extinction.

They felt it was a problem to the extent of extinction. The entire reason why the catalyst was to make peace with synthtic so they don't uprise and kill organics. IT'S CREATOR WERE THAT PARANOID AND STUPID.
It did not pick what the problm was.  It was spacificly made to solve the problem it was given.The problem here is how it solved it.
The catalyst never on it's own think there was an organic/synthetic problem, it was made with the concept in it programed form the start.

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

@dreman9999 no, he started the Reaper solution, he killed his own creators against their will and order, the three end choices we're forced to make are on the Citadel which the Reapers built and are powered by the Crucible, he's behind it

1. Perserved creators.

2. He was give allowence from the start to pick how to solve the problem it was given. It picking the reaper salution is not going ageinst it's programing. For it to go ageint it's programing it would have not try and not solve the problem given to it at a all.

1. there dead, not preserved- yourr defending it

2. it caused more problems because it was the only one that said synthetics would kill all organics and your making it sound like a VI

[dreman9999]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Handsome Devil wrote...

Its core programming didn't change, but its directive did. It's still considered going rogue.

Here's an analogy:

EDI was created to serve the Normandy crew. EDI still went rogue against Cerberus, but she still serves the Normandy.

Just leaving this here, again.

1. From the start it was given full freedom to choose it's directive.
2.EDI did  change her dircetive. She was to serve the normady's cerberus crew till told otherwise.
She changed to to seving the normady's crew no matter what.

[ThaDPG]

Flog61 wrote...

Greed1914 wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Once all the planned DLC for ME3 are out the conversation with the Catalyst is going to be seven hours long, he'll have sooo many excuses and rationalizations...

It'll actually be pretty short.  Just like we have now, its answers will amount to either, "Nope, you're wrong and I'm right," or "Too bad, do as I say." 

You forgot:

'O_o ..............there is too little time to explain... *shifty eyes*'

And after all that....you still get the same ishy choices

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

They felt it was a problem to the extent of extinction. The entire reason why the catalyst was to make peace with synthtic so they don't uprise and kill organics. IT'S CREATOR WERE THAT PARANOID AND STUPID.
It did not pick what the problm was.  It was spacificly made to solve the problem it was given.The problem here is how it solved it.
The catalyst never on it's own think there was an organic/synthetic problem, it was made with the concept in it programed form the start.

No, they were just sick of conflict, and too unimaginative to come up with peace on their own.
The dialogue doesn't even imply there was a danger of extinction, this is something the Catalyst determined on it's own, and switched directives to.

I am constantly baffled as to why you think this supposedly advanced AI is about as sophisticated and flexible as Windows 7.

[D24O]

Nyoka wrote...

It would be hilarious if we had conversations with Leviathan in which he defends the logic of space kid.

Listen Shepard, when I try to kill you, AM I AT WAR?

That's when I hit the renegade interrupt to call down an orbital strike.

[D24O]

The Angry One wrote...

No, they were just sick of conflict, and too unimaginative to come up with peace on their own.
The dialogue doesn't even imply there was a danger of extinction, this is something the Catalyst determined on it's own, and switched directives to.

I am constantly baffled as to why you think this supposedly advanced AI is about as sophisticated and flexible as Windows 7.

WIndows 7 came out after the Catalyst. He's like a billion years obsolete.

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

@dreman9999 no, he started the Reaper solution, he killed his own creators against their will and order, the three end choices we're forced to make are on the Citadel which the Reapers built and are powered by the Crucible, he's behind it

1. Perserved creators.

2. He was give allowence from the start to pick how to solve the problem it was given. It picking the reaper salution is not going ageinst it's programing. For it to go ageint it's programing it would have not try and not solve the problem given to it at a all.

1. there dead, not preserved- yourr defending it

2. it caused more problems because it was the only one that said synthetics would kill all organics and your making it sound like a VI

1. Preserved....
 
And no I'm not defending it.

2.You need to understand what a VI is. A VI is not a synthetic that does what ever it's programed to do. A VI is a synthetic that is way too limited to do abstract thought. A VI is too dumb to do anything that the catalyst is doing.
A VI can't solve open end problems like the catalyst or EDI.
AI can be shakled and force o do there programing, look at EDI in ME2. Why do you think EDI is titles "unshakled AI " in ME3?