1085 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

AresKeith wrote...


there is no morality in those endings, each ending is one of the Catalyst solutions with a twist

I have decided to leave the black hole of the ever changing thinking of one person.  I feel it necessary to advise you do the same.  It's like trying to catch mercury with your hand.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

The catalyst doesn't control the crucible. the curcible controls the catalyst. Even the catalyst stated he is being forced into these choices.  

What direct the crucible is the past races that design it.

And so it begins. 

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 11 août 2012 - 05:47 .

[AresKeith]

3DandBeyond wrote...

AresKeith wrote...


there is no morality in those endings, each ending is one of the Catalyst solutions with a twist

I have decided to leave the black hole of the ever changing thinking of one person.  I feel it necessary to advise you do the same.  It's like trying to catch mercury with your hand.

yep, especially with Dreman

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

AresKeith wrote...


there is no morality in those endings, each ending is one of the Catalyst solutions with a twist

I have decided to leave the black hole of the ever changing thinking of one person.  I feel it necessary to advise you do the same.  It's like trying to catch mercury with your hand.

My thinking did not change. Only the way I been explining my view. It's just you are not getting it , mr. "deception is a morality".

Modifié par dreman9999, 11 août 2012 - 05:50 .

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

AresKeith wrote...


there is no morality in those endings, each ending is one of the Catalyst solutions with a twist

I have decided to leave the black hole of the ever changing thinking of one person.  I feel it necessary to advise you do the same.  It's like trying to catch mercury with your hand.

yep, especially with Dreman

Back on tiopic...

The catalyst doesn't control the crucible. the curcible controls the catalyst. Even the catalyst stated he is being forced into these choices.  

What direct the crucible is the past races that design it. 

[shepskisaac]

AresKeith wrote...

there is no morality in those endings, each ending is one of the Catalyst solutions with a twist

Catalyst doesn't look forward to either being destroyed along with Reapers in Destroy, nor erased in Control by Shep who he knows can do whatever he feels like with the Reapers and the cycle. Besides, we knew about these solutions even before meeting Catalyst. Only synthesis is his idea.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 11 août 2012 - 05:56 .

[PsyrenY]

I see nothing in this "leak" that hurts Synthesis. He says Leviathan was a result of his "solution" (i.e. Reaping), not a result of Synthesis, which he admits he had no idea how to accomplish until the Crucible was done.

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I see nothing in this "leak" that hurts Synthesis. He says Leviathan was a result of his "solution" (i.e. Reaping), not a result of Synthesis, which he admits he had no idea how to accomplish until the Crucible was done.

Any further information regarding this will poison minds. That's your issue.

[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

I see nothing in this "leak" that hurts Synthesis. He says Leviathan was a result of his "solution" (i.e. Reaping), not a result of Synthesis, which he admits he had no idea how to accomplish until the Crucible was done.

Any further information regarding this will poison minds. That's your issue.

"Poison minds?" What?

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

I see nothing in this "leak" that hurts Synthesis. He says Leviathan was a result of his "solution" (i.e. Reaping), not a result of Synthesis, which he admits he had no idea how to accomplish until the Crucible was done.

Any further information regarding this will poison minds. That's your issue.

"Poison minds?" What?

You know what I mean. Any sentence with Synthesis and Leviathan in it will rustle jimmies.

Synthesis fans will never get a good side to this.

All this has done is paint him as more fallacious.

[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...


You know what I mean. Any sentence with Synthesis and Leviathan in it will rustle jimmies.

Synthesis fans will never get a good side to this.

All this has done is paint him as more fallacious.

I honestly don't.

And my... "jimmies" aren't rustled at all. I have yet to see any connection between Leviathan and the green ending. Nor is there anything in this thread to stop me from picking green yet again.

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...


You know what I mean. Any sentence with Synthesis and Leviathan in it will rustle jimmies.

Synthesis fans will never get a good side to this.

All this has done is paint him as more fallacious.

I honestly don't.

And my... "jimmies" aren't rustled at all. I have yet to see any connection between Leviathan and the green ending. Nor is there anything in this thread to stop me from picking green yet again.

Read the text again. All this does is paint him as more fallacious. A truly rouge AI.

Like the enchanted brooms in Fantasia.

[PsyrenY]

His attitude prior to us installing the crucible was never much of a factor for me. It's forcing him to explain the options just as surely as it forced him to bring me up there. Else he would have simply said "thank you organic for building the Synthesizer!" and never mentioned Destroy or Control at all.

So again, nothing changes from where I'm sitting.

[Nitrocuban]

So what if the crucible is just a device to implant new thought routines into the catalyst´s mind designed by the only creature that has the knowledge to do such things, namely the Leviathan?

[PsyrenY]

Nitrocuban wrote...

So what if the crucible is just a device to implant new thought routines into the catalyst´s mind designed by the only creature that has the knowledge to do such things, namely the Leviathan?

If the origins of the Crucible's blueprints are the Catalyst's creators, made into a rogue Reaper, it would explain a lot. And since the Catalyst is out of control and needs to be stopped, all the more reason to trust the Crucible.

[Applepie_Svk]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...


You know what I mean. Any sentence with Synthesis and Leviathan in it will rustle jimmies.

Synthesis fans will never get a good side to this.

All this has done is paint him as more fallacious.

I honestly don't.

And my... "jimmies" aren't rustled at all. I have yet to see any connection between Leviathan and the green ending. Nor is there anything in this thread to stop me from picking green yet again.

Read the text again. All this does is paint him as more fallacious. A truly rouge AI.

Like the enchanted brooms in Fantasia.

Ok just recap... 

Catalyst said that he tried similiar solutions, each of them failed...
From leak it looks like Leviathan´s harvest was best thing which Catalyst could achieved - his best solution is creating abominations which commiting crimes on his order.

Question stands - Do you realy believe to AI which said that rebelled against own Creators - so it´s denied own agenda, and turn them into goo in order to destroy chaos in galaxy? AI which tried who knows how many solutions since it was created and always failed ? What´s your collateral that Catalyst solution will work now ? 

Your answer is 0... sooner or later your Catalyst and Reapers will arise in their vicious cycle again.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 11 août 2012 - 06:58 .

[D1100111101]

3DandBeyond wrote...


If he doesn't think he's killing people then he can't be "bad". He had no intent. But this is crap. His intent does not matter. The game ignores that. He in fact continues to try and prove there is no intent (but it shows the opposite). He says the reapers are just doing what they must do. Ok, that means he knows what intent is.

Actually intent makes a huge difference. The Catalyst's intent is to save the core of an organic species each cycle, hence harvesting DNA and downloading the consciouness of a species. I'm not saying that the Catalyst is nice about it, but over millions of years I'm guessing it figured organics are going to fight back because they usually can't supercede their emotional disposition to bodily death.

Even our laws take into account whether there is intent. That's why there is a difference between crimes like accidental death, manslaughter, and 1st degree murder. It's also the reason assault can sometimes be considere a hate crime. Legally and emotionally speaking, humans make room for intent.

[PsyrenY]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

From leak it looks like Leviathan was beta version of failed synthesis 

This is the part where I throw up [citation needed]. Leviathan was his first attempt at a Reaper, not his first attempt at Synthesis. He settled on Reapers after negotiations kept breaking down and his attempts at Synthesis failed. They're not the same thing.

Perhaps the actual DLC will change that, but as of now, I see no link between the two except the standard "omg every combo of organic + tech = Saren/Reaper!!" argument that has been leveled at Synthesis since March.

If Reapers were his idea of synthesis, why would he be happy with the Crucible's version? Why not just win the war and keep making Reapers? If Harbinger was truly his idea of what the finished product would look like, he has no reason to negotiate with you at all - he was already getting what he wanted. It makes no sense.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 11 août 2012 - 07:00 .

[s0mbo]

When it comes to trusting the Catalyst it is important to remember that it is an unchained AI, which means that regardless of how it got there (take note of that qualifier Dreman) it is now an intelligent life form with a basic hierarchy of goals/needs. The top of that "pyramid", above completing any missions, regardless of who came up with it is self-preservation. Therefore if lying to make the option where it survives seem more enticing, then of course it will lie.

The proof that is an unchained AI, is that a chained AI lacks the ability to make complex decisions, it is essentially a VI with a much stronger computation power for achieving direct commands that are given to it. As a result, a chained AI would have been forced to terminate if its creators said no to its solution, thus a chained AI would have a kill-switch.

That considered, when one looks at the possible options, and examines long term effects looking at what the Catalyst doesn't say, drawing conclusions with simple logic and evidence from previous events, then the options look quite different.
For destroy, all that is apparently destroyed are the relays, probably because they are unable to withstand the force of the blast from the signal being sent through them, as well as the "minds" of the Reapers and apparently EDI and the Geth. The evidence of this is that ships do continue flying (in spite of the claim by the Catalyst), and Shepard apparently breathing at the end.
For Control, Shepard essentially becomes what David Archer was for the Geth in Overlord, except this time there is no ability to turn it off. While Shepard does have a stronger personality then David, the whispers of 300,000,000 Reapers over time will eventually drive him bananas leading a result that is likely not good.
For Synthesis, if the Catalyst is not lying about the impact of the DNA-like structure in combining minds (synthetics gain understanding) than the impact of those 300,000,000 Reapers is once again felt, this time on everything, and as the Catalyst is a major part of their thoughts, it is free to continue acting and influencing, thus a long-term result of bad things happening. EDI speaking at the end is evidence of the possibility of that.
Even if I'm wrong about the possible consequences of Synthesis there is still the Shepard making a decision for everything in spite of a lack of consent, informed or otherwise.
Even without those possibilies I chose destroy, because Shepard needs to find Tali.

Modifié par s0mbo, 15 août 2012 - 05:55 .

[tyrvas]

have you guys read the leaked script...

Catalyst: I was designed to control synthetics, and protect and preserve organic life.


you never said that before you little ****

[PsyrenY]

tyrvas wrote...

have you guys read the leaked script...

Catalyst: I was designed to control synthetics, and protect and preserve organic life.


you never said that before you little ****

In EC he says he harvests them both. It's pretty much the same thing.

[Applepie_Svk]

Optimystic_X wrote...

tyrvas wrote...

have you guys read the leaked script...

Catalyst: I was designed to control synthetics, and protect and preserve organic life.


you never said that before you little ****

In EC he says he harvests them both. It's pretty much the same thing.

[tyrvas]

Optimystic_X wrote...

tyrvas wrote...

have you guys read the leaked script...

Catalyst: I was designed to control synthetics, and protect and preserve organic life.


you never said that before you little ****

In EC he says he harvests them both. It's pretty much the same thing.

In EC he says...

Catalyst: "I was created to bring balance, to be the Catalyst of Peace between organics and synthetics"

Modifié par tyrvas, 11 août 2012 - 07:37 .

[TSA_383]

tyrvas wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

tyrvas wrote...

have you guys read the leaked script...

Catalyst: I was designed to control synthetics, and protect and preserve organic life.


you never said that before you little ****

In EC he says he harvests them both. It's pretty much the same thing.

In EC he says...

Catalyst: "I was created to bring balance, to be the Catalyst of Peace between organics and synthetics"

Exactly, whilst these are all subtle changes, they make it clearer with each iteration that it shouldn't be trusted...

[Applepie_Svk]

TSA_383 wrote...


Exactly, whilst these are all subtle changes, they make it clearer with each iteration that it shouldn't be trusted...

Retcon own art with each DLC is realy bad way to create games...