1085 réponses à ce sujet

[SKiLLYWiLLY2]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I honestly don't.

And my... "jimmies" aren't rustled at all.

lol

[PsyrenY]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Look at it from his perspective. Harvesting preserves organics, according to his logic, by storing them in Reaper form. Ditto for synthetics, as their advances in technology (if any) are also retained.

Also: of course the reason he was created, and the solution he came up with, are at odds. It's unlikely his creators WANTED him to liquefy them and pour them into a crunchy robo-shell.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 11 août 2012 - 09:41 .

[Applepie_Svk]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Look at it from his perspective. Harvesting preserves organics, according to his logic, by storing them in Reaper form. Ditto for synthetics, as their advances in technology (if any) are also retained.

Also: of course the reason he was created, and the solution he came up with, are at odds. It's unlikely his creators WANTED him to liquefy them and pour them into a crunchy robo-shell.

According to his assumption he is presserving species inside Reaper, Legion said that connection with Reaper is overwhelming like a speaking with thousand organics - but Catalyst said that Reapers obey to each of his commands, which is not disproving presence of organics inside but it disproving any kind of free will of these organics or whatever they are - simply said each Reaper is prison of race for an eternity... it´s mercy to kill them. If those organics inside have a free will than Reapers sooner or later would kill each other or Catalyst - but they haven´t they are shackled to Catalyst´s will. Only real desire of Catalyst can be reproduction and that´s why he always trying to achieve his synthesis - I don´t believe single words which he said because there is too many flaws and contradictions and yes that thing - child form.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 11 août 2012 - 10:04 .

[TSA_383]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...


Exactly, whilst these are all subtle changes, they make it clearer with each iteration that it shouldn't be trusted...

Retcon own art with each DLC is realy bad way to create games...

Lucrative though.

[Applepie_Svk]

TSA_383 wrote...


Lucrative though.

It´s milking of franchise, they should deliver complete game at first place and not selling it on parts - it´s not right and very suspicious...

Edit: Imagine that in ME1 they would cut out Sovereign and in ME2 they would did it with TIM or Harbinger... pay DLC for knowing what´s going on... hurray !

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 11 août 2012 - 09:54 .

[Alikain]

This is why i never trusted control and synthesis, because i felt like the catalyst missed calculated and couldn't account for variables in each cycle.

@Megasovereign

but EDi had Shepard and the crew of the Normandy, so in other words she acquired the organic attribute. You also have to remember without EDI's heuristics and expert system evolving to a level which she began to show sign of emotions, she would have been just like the catalyst. same can be said about legion way of think or should say the geth. the more they interact with organics the more they copy their attribute and from what i can tell catalyst didn't have that much interaction.

[aries1001]

3DAndBeyond wrote:

By harvesting and saving the consciousness and DNA of a species, that species lives on in perpetuity, or until Shepard destroys a Reaper. Actually, think about that. Every Reaper that Shepard destroys is an entire civilization whose consciousness is completely wiped out. And since we've discussed that consciousness is 'life' I ask is the Catalyst the monster here, or is Shepard? Or are they both heroes and villains at the same time? There is always a very fine line between hero and villain.

I agree - however, if you look way back to BG1 (from 1998) the motto or pr-line for this game was:
In the fighting of a monster your risk becoming one yourself - a quote from Nietzhe, I believe? Is Shepard a monster or are the Reapers or the Starchild monsters?

Doesn't the kid (the starchild) say something about that he was ctread many eons ago to overcome a problem and that someone created the Crucible to help overcome this problem. The kid must then hve had a programmed AI that told what to do....or rather how he could overcome the problem. In this process, it seemed he created the Reapers, or the Crucible did? In doing so, he - or the Crucible - programmed the Reapers to do what they must do e.g. they have a specifik program. As such, they obey their programming.....therefore they do what they must do, have to to do, so to speak....

Let me take the dog analogy one step further: If - or when - a dog bites a human person, does it know it is wrong? Or will it only know this is wrong if its human master scolds it, yells at it, and thus makes it clear that it is not OK to bite a human being, say a child. And as such, alter the dog's program.....if you will...

Wouldn't it then be possible to alter the Reapers's program, so that the Reapers no longer wouldn't be doing what they originally were programmed to do? And isn't this what the kid, the starchild, suggests to Shepard, cognitive dissonance or not?

[PsyrenY]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

According to his assumption he is presserving species inside Reaper, Legion said that connection with Reaper is overwhelming like a speaking with thousand organics - but Catalyst said that Reapers obey to each of his commands, which is not disproving presence of organics inside but it disproving any kind of free will of these organics or whatever they are - simply said each Reaper is prison of race for an eternity... it´s mercy to kill them. If those organics inside have a free will than Reapers sooner or later would kill each other or Catalyst - but they haven´t they are shackled to Catalyst´s will.

Precisely. This is why the Catalyst must be replaced. He has all that knowledge, technology and culture at his beck and call, yet he either can't or won't put it to any purpose except to make more Reapers. 

Synthesis removes him from the equation; EDI makes it clear that we now have access to all the information of prior cycles. We then use it both to restore our existing cultures and surpass previous boundaries. The singularity is no longer a threat to one faction, because both sides achieve it simultaneously. It is literally win/win.

[3DandBeyond]

D1100111101 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...


If he doesn't think he's killing people then he can't be "bad". He had no intent. But this is crap. His intent does not matter. The game ignores that. He in fact continues to try and prove there is no intent (but it shows the opposite). He says the reapers are just doing what they must do. Ok, that means he knows what intent is.

Actually intent makes a huge difference. The Catalyst's intent is to save the core of an organic species each cycle, hence harvesting DNA and downloading the consciouness of a species. I'm not saying that the Catalyst is nice about it, but over millions of years I'm guessing it figured organics are going to fight back because they usually can't supercede their emotional disposition to bodily death.

Even our laws take into account whether there is intent. That's why there is a difference between crimes like accidental death, manslaughter, and 1st degree murder. It's also the reason assault can sometimes be considere a hate crime. Legally and emotionally speaking, humans make room for intent.

Our laws are irrelevant as to what he's doing.

His intent doesn't matter-his actions do.  I don't care if he thinks he's making wedding decorations by turning people into goo.  The story is told from the perspective of people, not reapers.  If this was a story told where reapers are the good guys, then what they and the kid thinks would matter.

His intent especially does not matter in regard to the deaths of trillions of people.  It does not matter what he even thinks he is doing, preserving or ascending or whatever.  From the perspective of people, he is killing them and from the perspective of people what he is doing is wrong.  That's what matters. 

Do you honestly think Shepard should just act like it's all ok because the kid is killing people and means well?  I don't think that if some guy comes into your house and kills your family because he thinks he's sending them to God or because he thinks it will make them happy, that you would say his intent mattered.

The very fact that the kid thinks he's doing a good thing (if he does, but some of the things he says indicates he may not think that), still calls into question all that he says. 

His intent may not be evil and he literally may not be crazy, but his actions are evil and his interpretation of his purpose is crazy.  So, he is doing evil things for crazy reasons, no matter his intent.

As a person, I wouldn't want to be ascended.  Period.  And any being that would force that upon me is my enemy.  His further statements on just what the choices are merely solidifies that for me. 

[P_sutherland]

the reapers gaining "free will" or destroying each other would have been a better ending.

[3DandBeyond]

aries1001 wrote...

3DAndBeyond wrote:

By harvesting and saving the consciousness and DNA of a species, that species lives on in perpetuity, or until Shepard destroys a Reaper. Actually, think about that. Every Reaper that Shepard destroys is an entire civilization whose consciousness is completely wiped out. And since we've discussed that consciousness is 'life' I ask is the Catalyst the monster here, or is Shepard? Or are they both heroes and villains at the same time? There is always a very fine line between hero and villain.

I agree - however, if you look way back to BG1 (from 1998) the motto or pr-line for this game was:
In the fighting of a monster your risk becoming one yourself - a quote from Nietzhe, I believe? Is Shepard a monster or are the Reapers or the Starchild monsters?

Doesn't the kid (the starchild) say something about that he was ctread many eons ago to overcome a problem and that someone created the Crucible to help overcome this problem. The kid must then hve had a programmed AI that told what to do....or rather how he could overcome the problem. In this process, it seemed he created the Reapers, or the Crucible did? In doing so, he - or the Crucible - programmed the Reapers to do what they must do e.g. they have a specifik program. As such, they obey their programming.....therefore they do what they must do, have to to do, so to speak....

Let me take the dog analogy one step further: If - or when - a dog bites a human person, does it know it is wrong? Or will it only know this is wrong if its human master scolds it, yells at it, and thus makes it clear that it is not OK to bite a human being, say a child. And as such, alter the dog's program.....if you will...

Wouldn't it then be possible to alter the Reapers's program, so that the Reapers no longer wouldn't be doing what they originally were programmed to do? And isn't this what the kid, the starchild, suggests to Shepard, cognitive dissonance or not?

That is not my quote.

[Stella-Arc]

So....the foundation for the existence of the Reapers was started by Organics.

Oh, the irony.

[3DandBeyond]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

According to his assumption he is presserving species inside Reaper, Legion said that connection with Reaper is overwhelming like a speaking with thousand organics - but Catalyst said that Reapers obey to each of his commands, which is not disproving presence of organics inside but it disproving any kind of free will of these organics or whatever they are - simply said each Reaper is prison of race for an eternity... it´s mercy to kill them. If those organics inside have a free will than Reapers sooner or later would kill each other or Catalyst - but they haven´t they are shackled to Catalyst´s will.

Precisely. This is why the Catalyst must be replaced. He has all that knowledge, technology and culture at his beck and call, yet he either can't or won't put it to any purpose except to make more Reapers. 

Synthesis removes him from the equation; EDI makes it clear that we now have access to all the information of prior cycles. We then use it both to restore our existing cultures and surpass previous boundaries. The singularity is no longer a threat to one faction, because both sides achieve it simultaneously. It is literally win/win.

Actually, in synthesis we don't know what happens to the kid.  He may consider he is not needed for now, but people could create organic life and synthetic life, and the reapers may still exist.

It's not a win/win at all.  Knowledge to be valid and to have meaning must be earned.  Being given augmentation that advances knowledge beyond what people are ready or have earned is problematic and lessons of that exist within the game itself.  It's also done to people without their consent.  And the geth are just given understanding of organics.  Guess who said they didn't want that?  Legion.  That was a major point of contention that split the heretic geth from the true geth.  The true geth did not want to be given full understanding, they wanted to learn it, to evolve.  So, that is now forced upon them.  They chose to use the earlier reaper upgrades, but that was their choice.  They did not want it done to them.  Being made to have tech augmentation for full knowledge or full understanding creates people whose future possible learning will be based on that reaper tech.  Exactly what they wouldn't want.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 12 août 2012 - 03:22 .

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...


You know what I mean. Any sentence with Synthesis and Leviathan in it will rustle jimmies.

Synthesis fans will never get a good side to this.

All this has done is paint him as more fallacious.

I honestly don't.

And my... "jimmies" aren't rustled at all. I have yet to see any connection between Leviathan and the green ending. Nor is there anything in this thread to stop me from picking green yet again.

Read the text again. All this does is paint him as more fallacious. A truly rouge AI.

Like the enchanted brooms in Fantasia.

Ok just recap... 

Catalyst said that he tried similiar solutions, each of them failed...
From leak it looks like Leviathan´s harvest was best thing which Catalyst could achieved - his best solution is creating abominations which commiting crimes on his order.

Question stands - Do you realy believe to AI which said that rebelled against own Creators - so it´s denied own agenda, and turn them into goo in order to destroy chaos in galaxy? AI which tried who knows how many solutions since it was created and always failed ? What´s your collateral that Catalyst solution will work now ? 

Your answer is 0... sooner or later your Catalyst and Reapers will arise in their vicious cycle again.

.....:blink:This one understands.

[dreman9999]

tyrvas wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

tyrvas wrote...

have you guys read the leaked script...

Catalyst: I was designed to control synthetics, and protect and preserve organic life.


you never said that before you little ****

In EC he says he harvests them both. It's pretty much the same thing.

In EC he says...

Catalyst: "I was created to bring balance, to be the Catalyst of Peace between organics and synthetics"

He later says he harvests both.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

D1100111101 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...


If he doesn't think he's killing people then he can't be "bad". He had no intent. But this is crap. His intent does not matter. The game ignores that. He in fact continues to try and prove there is no intent (but it shows the opposite). He says the reapers are just doing what they must do. Ok, that means he knows what intent is.

Actually intent makes a huge difference. The Catalyst's intent is to save the core of an organic species each cycle, hence harvesting DNA and downloading the consciouness of a species. I'm not saying that the Catalyst is nice about it, but over millions of years I'm guessing it figured organics are going to fight back because they usually can't supercede their emotional disposition to bodily death.

Even our laws take into account whether there is intent. That's why there is a difference between crimes like accidental death, manslaughter, and 1st degree murder. It's also the reason assault can sometimes be considere a hate crime. Legally and emotionally speaking, humans make room for intent.

Our laws are irrelevant as to what he's doing.

His intent doesn't matter-his actions do.  I don't care if he thinks he's making wedding decorations by turning people into goo.  The story is told from the perspective of people, not reapers.  If this was a story told where reapers are the good guys, then what they and the kid thinks would matter.

His intent especially does not matter in regard to the deaths of trillions of people.  It does not matter what he even thinks he is doing, preserving or ascending or whatever.  From the perspective of people, he is killing them and from the perspective of people what he is doing is wrong.  That's what matters. 

Do you honestly think Shepard should just act like it's all ok because the kid is killing people and means well?  I don't think that if some guy comes into your house and kills your family because he thinks he's sending them to God or because he thinks it will make them happy, that you would say his intent mattered.

The very fact that the kid thinks he's doing a good thing (if he does, but some of the things he says indicates he may not think that), still calls into question all that he says. 

His intent may not be evil and he literally may not be crazy, but his actions are evil and his interpretation of his purpose is crazy.  So, he is doing evil things for crazy reasons, no matter his intent.

As a person, I wouldn't want to be ascended.  Period.  And any being that would force that upon me is my enemy.  His further statements on just what the choices are merely solidifies that for me. 

Ask your self this. Did anyone yet to say they were ok with what the catalyst did? I sure did not.

[shepskisaac]

Applepie_Svk wrote...
What´s your collateral that Catalyst solution will work now ?

Ending cutscenes after you make the green choice that show that it worked? Including the scene that happens like tens of thousands of years later with Stargazer and some kiddo that show that there's still pace and Reaper threat trully ended?

[dreman9999]

IsaacShep wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...
What´s your collateral that Catalyst solution will work now ?

Ending cutscenes after you make the green choice that show that it worked? Including the scene that happens like tens of thousands of years later with Stargazer and some kiddo that show that there's still pace and Reaper threat trully ended?

We'll ...Everyone is indoctrianted.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ask your self this. Did anyone yet to say they were ok with what the catalyst did? I sure did not.

I was not referring to anything you said. 

And actually anyone that thinks that the kid's intent matters really is basically saying what the kid does is ok.  I'm not talking about you and I don't want to get into some black hole discussion with you again.  Please.

Just for grins, let's say the kid thinks he is doing good and that he has Mother Theresa's soul.  It does not matter.  From the perspective of people, he is doing evil  That's all that matters.

Knowing his intent doesn't help you kill the reapers.  Knowing his purpose only lets you know his actions (if not his intent) are evil and based on craziness.  That's enough to make me wonder if the 3 consoles are even tied to the crucible.

See even if you think the crucible changed him, you don't know that it (the crucible) created the 3 choices.  Maybe he did change.  He used to think one thing, maybe now he thinks something else.  He said the crucible changed him.  He didn't say it created the choices.  The choices might always have been there.  Maybe they just didn't work.  And maybe the crucible only changed him by making him look like a little kid.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 12 août 2012 - 04:48 .

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ask your self this. Did anyone yet to say they were ok with what the catalyst did? I sure did not.

I was not referring to anything you said. 

And actually anyone that thinks that the kid's intent matters really is basically saying what the kid does is ok.  I'm not talking about you and I don't want to get into some black hole discussion with you again.  Please.

Just for grins, let's say the kid thinks he is doing good and that he has Mother Theresa's soul.  It does not matter.  From the perspective of people, he is doing evil  That's all that matters.

Knowing his intent doesn't help you kill the reapers.  Knowing his purpose only lets you know his actions (if not his intent) are evil and based on craziness.  That's enough to make me wonder if the 3 consoles are even tied to the crucible.

See even if you think the crucible changed him, you don't know that it (the crucible) created the 3 choices.  Maybe he did change.  He used to think one thing, maybe now he thinks something else.  He said the crucible changed him.  He didn't say it created the choices.  The choices might always have been there.  Maybe they just didn't work.  And maybe the crucible only changed him by making him look like a little kid.

No that 's not it at all. Your missing the point of empathy. Empathy is understand. Understanding doesnto mean you in line with the person or okwith what he is doing. It just means you understand them. This also makes it esier to judge them and more so destory them.
Why? Becaue you not understand how they think but you understand how to destroy them mentally and physically. It also to understand what the problem was to prevent it later.

And with the crucible he did change. Think hardware upgrade. Look at the crucible as a new cd play doc for your computer. The computer uses it but does not chooes it's role. 

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

No that 's not it at all. Your missing the point of empathy. Empathy is understand. Understanding doesnto mean you in line with the person or okwith what he is doing. It just means you understand them. This also makes it esier to judge them and more so destory them.
Why? Becaue you not understand how they think but you understand how to destroy them mentally and physically. It also to understand what the problem was to prevent it later.

And with the crucible he did change. Think hardware upgrade. Look at the crucible as a new cd play doc for your computer. The computer uses it but does not chooes it's role. 

Yes, empathy works best when helping to destroy people.  How can you have empathy for something you think is just following his programming and is just thinking like a plain old machine.  Empathy is about feelings.  You said he has none.

I am saying I have no need to understand him.  If he can't change his programming what good would understanding him do?  You try to understand someone in order to either agree with them or get them to agree with you or to help them or stop them.  Understanding him won't help Shepard do any of these things.  The kid indicates he's not open to suggestions.  It's not like Shepard could say s/he promises not to fight with synthetics if the reapers will go away.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 12 août 2012 - 05:24 .

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No that 's not it at all. Your missing the point of empathy. Empathy is understand. Understanding doesnto mean you in line with the person or okwith what he is doing. It just means you understand them. This also makes it esier to judge them and more so destory them.
Why? Becaue you not understand how they think but you understand how to destroy them mentally and physically. It also to understand what the problem was to prevent it later.

And with the crucible he did change. Think hardware upgrade. Look at the crucible as a new cd play doc for your computer. The computer uses it but does not chooes it's role. 

Yes, empathy works best when helping to destroy people.  How can you have empathy for something you think is just following his programming and is just thinking like a plain old machine.  Empathy is about feelings.  You said he has none.

I am saying I have no need to understand him.  If he can't change his programming what good would understanding him do?  You try to understand someone in order to either agree with them or get them to agree with you or to help them or stop them.  Understanding him won't help Shepard do any of these things.  The kid indicates he's not open to suggestions.  It's not like Shepard could say s/he promises not to fight with synthetics if the reapers will go away.

I didn't not say he did not have fellings or emotions. I said he had no morality. Big difference. Any being can be understood.You clearly see his emotions if you act hostal to it or have low ems.

Also, of course understanding him helps him choose. Every person has different morals and concept of morals. That goes with every Shepard. Understanding him help with the morality of the choices you have to deal with the choices you have to make. Also, it helps to find the solution to the problem of AI's rebelling.

[tyrvas]

dreman9999 wrote...

tyrvas wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

tyrvas wrote...

have you guys read the leaked script...

Catalyst: I was designed to control synthetics, and protect and preserve organic life.


you never said that before you little ****

In EC he says he harvests them both. It's pretty much the same thing.

In EC he says...

Catalyst: "I was created to bring balance, to be the Catalyst of Peace between organics and synthetics"

He later says he harvests both.

....are you a parrot?  I don't intend to repeat myself.

what did I ask in my post?

you don't seem to understand that it is changing what it originally was saying. (by 'it' I mean the catalyst)

in other words go to the OP and read the new points it will tell you.

Modifié par tyrvas, 12 août 2012 - 09:34 .

[AxStapleton]

IsaacShep wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...
What´s your collateral that Catalyst solution will work now ?

Ending cutscenes after you make the green choice that show that it worked? Including the scene that happens like tens of thousands of years later with Stargazer and some kiddo that show that there's still pace and Reaper threat trully ended?

That's a poor argument because everything supposedly works for every ending, even in Refuse the next cycle beats the Reapers.

[Applepie_Svk]

IsaacShep wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...
What´s your collateral that Catalyst solution will work now ?

Ending cutscenes after you make the green choice that show that it worked? Including the scene that happens like tens of thousands of years later with Stargazer and some kiddo that show that there's still pace and Reaper threat trully ended?

Stargazer scene is foreshadowing some event, because each of Catalyst´s endings shoud lead to new reality but there is only two realities: refuse - Shepard / colors - Catalyst