1085 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Nyoka wrote...

It would be hilarious if we had conversations with Leviathan in which he defends the logic of space kid.

Listen Shepard, when I try to kill you, AM I AT WAR?

Leviathan: "Conflict is bad, conflict is the reason this whole cycle started."

Shepard: "But the Reapers are at war with us."

Leviathan: "They may be in conflict with you, but they are not at war."

Shepard: ".... wait, you said *conflict* was bad, not just all out war. Any conflict!"

Leviathan: "...... damn that stupid kid's logic filling my mind with nonsense again!"

Shepard: "Kid? What kid?"

Leviathan: "You'll see... meh heh heh heh..."

Shepard: "... what's with the creepy laugh? You trying to intimidate me? I'm not afraid!"

Leviathan: "You will be..... you will be."

Modifié par The Angry One, 07 août 2012 - 07:23 .

[Greed1914]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

@dreman9999 no, he started the Reaper solution, he killed his own creators against their will and order, the three end choices we're forced to make are on the Citadel which the Reapers built and are powered by the Crucible, he's behind it

1. Perserved creators.

2. He was give allowence from the start to pick how to solve the problem it was given. It picking the reaper salution is not going ageinst it's programing. For it to go ageint it's programing it would have not try and not solve the problem given to it at a all.

1. there dead, not preserved- yourr defending it

2. it caused more problems because it was the only one that said synthetics would kill all organics and your making it sound like a VI

I have to agree with point 1.  I don't see how making Reapers was any kind of preservation.  The collective genetic material, sure, but the species is effectively still destroyed.  There is no culture, its history is all but wiped out, and there are zero individuals.  Mordin talks about how it is merciful to end the Collectors because they are no longer Prothean in any meaninful sense.  They exist, and that is it.  Sure, they technically were preserved as servants of the Reapers, but what kind of preservation is that? 

[Mcfly616]

I cannot wait for this DLC



And, to those discussing it above....The catalyst is a rogue AI.....however, it views itself as simply performing its purpose

Modifié par Mcfly616, 07 août 2012 - 07:24 .

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

They felt it was a problem to the extent of extinction. The entire reason why the catalyst was to make peace with synthtic so they don't uprise and kill organics. IT'S CREATOR WERE THAT PARANOID AND STUPID.
It did not pick what the problm was.  It was spacificly made to solve the problem it was given.The problem here is how it solved it.
The catalyst never on it's own think there was an organic/synthetic problem, it was made with the concept in it programed form the start.

No, they were just sick of conflict, and too unimaginative to come up with peace on their own.
The dialogue doesn't even imply there was a danger of extinction, this is something the Catalyst determined on it's own, and switched directives to.

I am constantly baffled as to why you think this supposedly advanced AI is about as sophisticated and flexible as Windows 7.

Sorry, if they made the catalyst and gave it the first synthetic reapers to impose it's salutions, that means its creator feared syntheitc up rising and killing them off.

[dreman9999]

Greed1914 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

@dreman9999 no, he started the Reaper solution, he killed his own creators against their will and order, the three end choices we're forced to make are on the Citadel which the Reapers built and are powered by the Crucible, he's behind it

1. Perserved creators.

2. He was give allowence from the start to pick how to solve the problem it was given. It picking the reaper salution is not going ageinst it's programing. For it to go ageint it's programing it would have not try and not solve the problem given to it at a all.

1. there dead, not preserved- yourr defending it

2. it caused more problems because it was the only one that said synthetics would kill all organics and your making it sound like a VI

I have to agree with point 1.  I don't see how making Reapers was any kind of preservation.  The collective genetic material, sure, but the species is effectively still destroyed.  There is no culture, its history is all but wiped out, and there are zero individuals.  Mordin talks about how it is merciful to end the Collectors because they are no longer Prothean in any meaninful sense.  They exist, and that is it.  Sure, they technically were preserved as servants of the Reapers, but what kind of preservation is that? 

It's a concept of perspective. They are still alive but not in a way we would want to stay alive.

[dreman9999]

Mcfly616 wrote...

I cannot wait for this DLC



And, to those discussing it above....The catalyst is a rogue AI.....however, it views itself as simply performing its purpose

Thank you. This one understands.

[MegaSovereign]

dreman9999 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

I cannot wait for this DLC



And, to those discussing it above....The catalyst is a rogue AI.....however, it views itself as simply performing its purpose

Thank you. This one understands.

But.

Thats.

What.

I've.

Been.

FREAKING SAYING. WOJRHOWRQHY@R)(QU_41-294381-2390-20

[GreyLycanTrope]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Handsome Devil wrote...

Its core programming didn't change, but its directive did. It's still considered going rogue.

Here's an analogy:

EDI was created to serve the Normandy crew. EDI still went rogue against Cerberus, but she still serves the Normandy.

Just leaving this here, again.

QFT

[dreman9999]

MegaSovereign wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

I cannot wait for this DLC



And, to those discussing it above....The catalyst is a rogue AI.....however, it views itself as simply performing its purpose

Thank you. This one understands.

But.

Thats.

What.

I've.

Been.

FREAKING SAYING. WOJRHOWRQHY@R)(QU_41-294381-2390-20

You missed the point that it always had the freedom to change it's directive.
It's obvious the AI and it's creators did not agree but it still is doing what it's programed to do.

[BDelacroix]

It looks like more push to synthesis. I still wouldn't do it. The Catalyst is messed up. Time to pull the plug.

[Memnon]

Never trusted the little bastard before Leviathan ...

[GreyLycanTrope]

BDelacroix wrote...

It looks like more push to synthesis. I still wouldn't do it. The Catalyst is messed up. Time to pull the plug.

If this turns out to be true it'll be worth watching just for the laughs.

[Applepie_Svk]

If Leviathan will so fundamentaly change the meaning of Catalyst´s presence than thx for unfinished product - BiowEAre, otherwise this will ****** every who blindly followed Control and Synthesis. Haha finaly fire start burning from different direction ...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 07 août 2012 - 07:47 .

[Greed1914]

dreman9999 wrote...

Greed1914 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

@dreman9999 no, he started the Reaper solution, he killed his own creators against their will and order, the three end choices we're forced to make are on the Citadel which the Reapers built and are powered by the Crucible, he's behind it

1. Perserved creators.

2. He was give allowence from the start to pick how to solve the problem it was given. It picking the reaper salution is not going ageinst it's programing. For it to go ageint it's programing it would have not try and not solve the problem given to it at a all.

1. there dead, not preserved- yourr defending it

2. it caused more problems because it was the only one that said synthetics would kill all organics and your making it sound like a VI

I have to agree with point 1.  I don't see how making Reapers was any kind of preservation.  The collective genetic material, sure, but the species is effectively still destroyed.  There is no culture, its history is all but wiped out, and there are zero individuals.  Mordin talks about how it is merciful to end the Collectors because they are no longer Prothean in any meaninful sense.  They exist, and that is it.  Sure, they technically were preserved as servants of the Reapers, but what kind of preservation is that? 

It's a concept of perspective. They are still alive but not in a way we would want to stay alive.

Meaning that it failed.  If the people you're supposedly saving would rather be dead, then you haven't found a viable solution.  The Catalyst's perspective cannot be taken seriously as it is looking to solve a problem that doesn't necesserily exist. 

[BDelacroix]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
How many time must it be said to you that it's creator were the once that felt there was a problem and forced it on the catalyst to solve?
Where isit sated that the catalyst on it's own thought there was a synthetic /organic problem? It never pick what the problem was, it only picked the salution is.

They felt there was a problem with conflict. *Not* with organic life being in danger of total extinction.

So an AI version of Neville Chamberlain with too much power at hand to achieve his peace at any price.

[dreman9999]

Greed1914 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Greed1914 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

@dreman9999 no, he started the Reaper solution, he killed his own creators against their will and order, the three end choices we're forced to make are on the Citadel which the Reapers built and are powered by the Crucible, he's behind it

1. Perserved creators.

2. He was give allowence from the start to pick how to solve the problem it was given. It picking the reaper salution is not going ageinst it's programing. For it to go ageint it's programing it would have not try and not solve the problem given to it at a all.

1. there dead, not preserved- yourr defending it

2. it caused more problems because it was the only one that said synthetics would kill all organics and your making it sound like a VI

I have to agree with point 1.  I don't see how making Reapers was any kind of preservation.  The collective genetic material, sure, but the species is effectively still destroyed.  There is no culture, its history is all but wiped out, and there are zero individuals.  Mordin talks about how it is merciful to end the Collectors because they are no longer Prothean in any meaninful sense.  They exist, and that is it.  Sure, they technically were preserved as servants of the Reapers, but what kind of preservation is that? 

It's a concept of perspective. They are still alive but not in a way we would want to stay alive.

Meaning that it failed.  If the people you're supposedly saving would rather be dead, then you haven't found a viable solution.  The Catalyst's perspective cannot be taken seriously as it is looking to solve a problem that doesn't necesserily exist. 

And that's the problem with the satution it pick. But what your not understanding is that the catalystis just a machining doing what it's programed to do. I t does care if the salution is flawed, he only cares to solve the problem it was given. It forced to solve the probelm.

[TSA_383]

Stornskar wrote...

Never trusted the little bastard before Leviathan ...

Precisely.
Seems even less trustworthy now, doesn't it? 

[dreman9999]

BDelacroix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
How many time must it be said to you that it's creator were the once that felt there was a problem and forced it on the catalyst to solve?
Where isit sated that the catalyst on it's own thought there was a synthetic /organic problem? It never pick what the problem was, it only picked the salution is.

They felt there was a problem with conflict. *Not* with organic life being in danger of total extinction.

So an AI version of Neville Chamberlain with too much power at hand to achieve his peace at any price.

AKA a machine does what's it programed to do no matter what.

[dreman9999]

TSA_383 wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

Never trusted the little bastard before Leviathan ...

Precisely.
Seems even less trustworthy now, doesn't it? 

Not really. What you put up just make his creators look more stupid for giving the job of solving this open end problem to a morally baseless machine.

[BDelacroix]

Greed1914 wrote...

Meaning that it failed.  If the people you're supposedly saving would rather be dead, then you haven't found a viable solution.  The Catalyst's perspective cannot be taken seriously as it is looking to solve a problem that doesn't necesserily exist. 

There may be an answer.  In the story "The Naked Sun" the robots there were given a definition of human that was so narrow they were allowed to kill humans that didn't fit that very narrow definition.  Naked Sun is an Asimov story so his three laws of robotics applied there.

What I am saying is maybe the definition of alive for the Catalyst is not quite the same as what we call alive.  It doesn't care about their happiness, just that they are alive.  In some manner.  Though it does seem to be as goo.

[SHARXTREME]

Wow, everything that we discussed and speculated to death in some topics is now actually in game, haha.
-Synthesis being the first thing that Catalyst did, Synthesis being the final thing Catalyst wants to do.
-Catalyst being a broken AI(wasn't it obvious that they would actually write this directly after the backlash?)
-Funny thing is that, in original cut and EC, they tried to make something completely different, send completely different message, now they are practically changing the ending without actually changing it, and they're practically invalidating Synthesis themselves, the ending that BW (and Catalyst) aimed for as ideal solution. Hilarious.

Question remains:
Why the hell should Shepard choose to destroy the Geth along with Reapers? Why would Shepard even talk to Catalyst at all?
That will be obviously answered in next DLC. Geth will be the bad guys, again, what a surprise that will be.
Plot hole + plot hole+ catalyst+ rabbit hole+ plot hole filler DLC = artistic vision and integrity?
Yeah, no.

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

If Leviathan will so fundamentaly change the meaning of Catalyst´s presence than thx for unfinished product - BiowEAre, otherwise this will ****** every who blindly followed Control and Synthesis. Haha finaly fire start burning from different direction ...

This doesn't undo the control choice. It just shows the flaws of synthesis more.

[dreman9999]

BDelacroix wrote...

Greed1914 wrote...

Meaning that it failed.  If the people you're supposedly saving would rather be dead, then you haven't found a viable solution.  The Catalyst's perspective cannot be taken seriously as it is looking to solve a problem that doesn't necesserily exist. 

There may be an answer.  In the story "The Naked Sun" the robots there were given a definition of human that was so narrow they were allowed to kill humans that didn't fit that very narrow definition.  Naked Sun is an Asimov story so his three laws of robotics applied there.

What I am saying is maybe the definition of alive for the Catalyst is not quite the same as what we call alive.  It doesn't care about their happiness, just that they are alive.  In some manner.  Though it does seem to be as goo.

^This...a THOUSANDS TIMES THIS.

[Greed1914]

dreman9999 wrote...


]And that's the problem with the satution it pick. But what your not understanding is that the catalystis just a machining doing what it's programed to do. I t does care if the salution is flawed, he only cares to solve the problem it was given. It forced to solve the probelm.

But if it's truly as advanced as it claims, then surely it could acknowledge that there are better ways, or to seek new perspectives if it can't find those other ways.  EDI sought input from Shepard and the crew because she was able to alter her programming, but lacked perspective.  She collaborated in order to find out what options were available.  The Catalyst claims it is no simple AI, but something more.  Yet, it is unable to seek out help from other sources to this non-existent problem.  The whole point of putting an AI in charge of finding a solution is that it is supposed to be able to go beyond its original programming and seek out alternatives.  It might as well be a simple VI since it goes through countless cycles seeking the exact same outcome.  

[dreman9999]

SHARXTREME wrote...

Wow, everything that we discussed and speculated to death in some topics is now actually in game, haha.
-Synthesis being the first thing that Catalyst did, Synthesis being the final thing Catalyst wants to do.
-Catalyst being a broken AI(wasn't it obvious that they would actually write this directly after the backlash?)
-Funny thing is that, in original cut and EC, they tried to make something completely different, send completely different message, now they are practically changing the ending without actually changing it, and they're practically invalidating Synthesis themselves, the ending that BW (and Catalyst) aimed for as ideal solution. Hilarious.

Question remains:
Why the hell should Shepard choose to destroy the Geth along with Reapers? Why would Shepard even talk to Catalyst at all?
That will be obviously answered in next DLC. Geth will be the bad guys, again, what a surprise that will be.
Plot hole + plot hole+ catalyst+ rabbit hole+ plot hole filler DLC = artistic vision and integrity?
Yeah, no.

1. EC always pointed out the catalyst is an AI that was for to solving the salution it was given. This just that this dlc makes it more clear it was the creators fault.

2.The choice in the end of the game are not controled by the catalyst. It's controled by who ever design the crucible. The catalyst isas much of a slave to the choices as you are.