1085 réponses à ce sujet

[Benny8484]

Awesome, more plot holes.  Do they even care anymore?  Seriously

[Jadebaby]

Taboo-XX wrote...

If this is true, Synthesis is going to take another beating.

[dreman9999]

Stornskar wrote...

Greed1914 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

That's the problem as well. It's a shackled AI. It's forced into views that only helps it's salution. You have to understand that using EDI is not a good example because she is unshackled, she has the freddom to do what ever she wants. The catalyst is shaclked and does not have EDI's freedom. The reapers are examples of the dangers of shakled AI's. They don't take account of morality to it's choices, it only thinks to doing it's programing no matter what, even it if means  billions die.
A shackled Ai ether has to be freed ,reprogramed, destroyed or given a new way to do it's programing to stop it.

Then why does it claim to be some sort of ultra-advanced AI?  It talks about how calling it an AI would be like saying humans are just animals.  If it's shackled, then it is no more advanced than a standard AI.  If it is shackled, as you say, then it is either lying or has an inflated ego, which doesn't sound like something a shackled AI is capable of.  Either way, I cannot trust what I'm being told by it. 

Dreman makes the conclusion that since the Catalyst says it will be forced to accept our solution, that means it's shackled. I maintain if it was shackled, it never would have turned on its masters in the first place ... 

Then you need toread /watch odyssey 2001. A shakled AI can still rebel.

[dreman9999]

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Oh for god's sake.
It changed it's own directive. It came up with a brand new method to solve the problem of it's new directive. It did this consciously, and creatively.

It is not a machine doing what it's told, it is fully aware of it's own actions.

Let me make it clear for you so you understand.
A machine does what it is programed to do and is a slave to it's programing if it can't change it. An AI can choose how it does it's programing.
It's creator gave the catalyst an opened ended quetion with no real awner to how to solve it. From the start it was allowed to pick how to solve how to solve problem is was give. It is with in it's programing to pick how to solve it.
As long as it is seeking to solve this problem it has not gone ageinst it's programing. It is still doing that. It matter not how it does it, if he find a salution  he is doing his programing.
His salution is to preserve organics. To the catalyst , this means he found a salution even if it is flawed.

Let me make this clear so YOU understand.
The solution, to preserve organics, is the solution to a problem IT MADE UP.
It's creator given directive was to end conflict between organics and synthetics. That synthetics would wipe out all organics is something it determined on it's own.

How many time must it be said to you that it's creator were the ones that felt there was a problem and forced it on the catalyst to solve it?
Where is it stated that the catalyst on it's own thought there was a synthetic /organic problem? It never pick what the problem was, it only picked the salution is.

Bingo. It picked the solution, meaning it is responsible for the events that happened later.

It's programing is to pick the salution. The one it can do.  It picking is not it changing it's programing. It just it blindly  doing the only salution it can do. That's how machines are.

Modifié par dreman9999, 08 août 2012 - 08:21 .

[dreman9999]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

1) All the Catalyst seems to be saying is what it said before: it tried Synthesis at some point but failed because the organic race(s) involved were not receptive/ready/willing. It ultimately came up with the solution of harvesting organic races, and it said that the creator race was unwillingly transformed into the first Reaper(s) to carry out the harvesting.

2) The Catalyst neither specified nor equated failed Synthesis with the creation of the first Reaper(s)/Leviathan(s).

3) Even if it turns out that the creation of the Reapers/Leviathan was the result of failed Synthesis (pending more of the Leviathan dialogue), that's perfectly fine. Under those conditions, it would still be exactly what the Catalyst said: a failed attempt at merging synthetic and organic life.

4) The ultimate outcome in the EC endings is that successful Synthesis is a boon for all civilizations. Whether it's through Shepard's knowledge being shared in an instant or people's readiness and willingness to make an evolutionary leap, Synthesis ends up working this time. Who knows, maybe in the moment of transformation, there's the mental equivalent of a consent form being signed. *rolleyes*

The current dialogue doesn't seem to prove anything other than that the Catalyst is an AI that came up with one or more flawed solutions as it tried to follow its directives to the best of its abilities. And if Synthesis was its very first choice, good. That's probably what it should have been shooting for anyway.

The Catalyst's previous failure(s) only shows that not everything works the first time out. As for any implication that Synthesis was some massively evil plan for brainwashing everyone and turning them into slaves, I'm pretty sure that the resulting golden age in the Synthesis epilogue pretty much kills that idea completely (unless you're one of those people who really want to grasp at straws).

Understand that the problem here is that it's forced. Even if the new salution is better then the old one, it still has the same problem.

[TSA_383]

dreman9999 wrote...
It progrpming is to pick the salution. The one it can do.  It picking is not it changing it's programing. It just it blindly  doing the only salution it can do. That's how machines are.

Exactly.
It's a cold emotionless AI.

Tell it to stop organics and synthetics from fighting... how can it do that?
By making it so that there's no distinction. The ultimate nightmare. The ultimate solution. Synthesis.

[dreman9999]

hoodaticus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I think it's simply a machine that wants a solution and it can't do it.

So, just like a machine, it harvests synthetics and organics and says it's peace. But it isn't really a solution.

It's a work around. So is Synthesis. He's trying to solve it through the most blunt manner possible. LITERALLY fusing the two together.

That's right Taboo. Now you getting it. He is a machine doing what he is programed to do. He is a slave to his programing. People have been saying this for weeks after ec.

Everything and everyone is a slave to its programming.  The Catalyst may as well be human.

Free will is nothing more and nothing less than the mind choosing what it is programmed to prefer.
- Jonathan Edwards, Religious Affections (1746)

BS, organic have full freedom to choose from the start. We are only limited by our ignorance. We don't have something wired it to up to constatly  fallow a state of thought.

Modifié par dreman9999, 08 août 2012 - 08:23 .

[dreman9999]

TSA_383 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
It progrpming is to pick the salution. The one it can do.  It picking is not it changing it's programing. It just it blindly  doing the only salution it can do. That's how machines are.

Exactly.
It's a cold emotionless AI.

Tell it to stop organics and synthetics from fighting... how can it do that?
By making it so that there's no distinction. The ultimate nightmare. The ultimate solution. Synthesis.

Synthesis is not he problem here. One way or another it's happening.....

It being forced is the problem.
The new salution is no different then the old salution because of this.

[chidingewe8036]

HEY.................WHO CARES?!?!?/??!

[chidingewe8036]

WAKE UP SHEPARD, THE REAL BATTLE HAS JUST BEGUN!!!!!

[Discouraged_one]

Starchild, the biggest troll in history

[dorktainian]

Discouraged_one wrote...



Starchild, the biggest troll in history

Nice.

[Hendrik.III]

Is it me or is the Catalyst the epitome of the problem he's trying to solve? That's why he can't solve it, he IS the problem.

If the OP speaks truth, the Leviathans tried to solve a problem between organics and synthetics by creating a AI (synthetic) to solve their problem for them... which is about the stupidest thing you can do.

After they lost control of it, it retained it's core programming of protecting organics, while he was also destined to destroy it (his own words...). It speaks from it's own experience with it's masters and having experienced nothing else, for him it is fact.
He tried to fuse both parties by synthesis, which is not a solution, but a removal of the problem - which is not the same thing - in a rather forced and genocidal manner.

On a sidenote, I keep getting the feeling that BW is still trying to fix the problems in their story by slightly changing the angle on their original story - it IS crucial information for the plot which is presented in post-release DLC. It changes the story greatly, but does it improve on the ending?

[Brovikk Rasputin]

I don't get it.

[dreman9999]

Hendrik.III wrote...

Is it me or is the Catalyst the epitome of the problem he's trying to solve? That's why he can't solve it, he IS the problem.

If the OP speaks truth, the Leviathans tried to solve a problem between organics and synthetics by creating a AI (synthetic) to solve their problem for them... which is about the stupidest thing you can do.

After they lost control of it, it retained it's core programming of protecting organics, while he was also destined to destroy it (his own words...). It speaks from it's own experience with it's masters and having experienced nothing else, for him it is fact.
He tried to fuse both parties by synthesis, which is not a solution, but a removal of the problem - which is not the same thing - in a rather forced and genocidal manner.

On a sidenote, I keep getting the feeling that BW is still trying to fix the problems in their story by slightly changing the angle on their original story - it IS crucial information for the plot which is presented in post-release DLC. It changes the story greatly, but does it improve on the ending?

He is a self fulling prophacy. Or more it's creators cause what they feared to happen. It's a machine forced to do it's programing, That was clear form EC and most people did not get it. 

Remeber this line..
"When fire burn is it at war, conflict , or doing whatit's programed to do? We(the catalyst and reapers ) are no different."

Won't that mean that it's nothing but a tool?

[dreman9999]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

I don't get it.

Machine do what they are programed to do. If they can't changed there programing, they are slaves to it's programing. An AI can choose how it does it's programing as long as it fallows the limits of it's programing. An AI that is forced to do it's programing has no moral base like any machine and is not allowed to gain one because of it.
If an AI is forced to do it's prpgraming and has no moral base it will do what ever it takes to do it's programing, even if that means people have to die for it to do it's programing.

Modifié par dreman9999, 08 août 2012 - 08:54 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

dreman9999 wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

I don't get it.

Machine do what they are programed to do. If they can't changed there programing, they are slaves to it's programing. An AI can choose how it does it's programing as long as it fallows the limits of it's programing. An AI that is forced to do it's programing has no moral base like any machine and is not allowed to gain one because of it.
If an AI is forced to do it's prpgraming and has no moral base it will do what ever it takes to do it's programing, even if that means people have to die for it to do it's programing.

Oh, yeah I get that. I still don't get how any of those Leviathan lines should make us trust the Catalyst even less, though.

Modifié par Brovikk Rasputin, 08 août 2012 - 08:58 .

[someguy1231]

"Nobody will trust the Catalyst after Leviathan"

Did anybody trust the Catalyst before Leviathan?

Modifié par someguy1231, 08 août 2012 - 09:10 .

[BleedingUranium]

dreman9999 wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
It progrpming is to pick the salution. The one it can do.  It picking is not it changing it's programing. It just it blindly  doing the only salution it can do. That's how machines are.

Exactly.
It's a cold emotionless AI.

Tell it to stop organics and synthetics from fighting... how can it do that?
By making it so that there's no distinction. The ultimate nightmare. The ultimate solution. Synthesis.

Synthesis is not he problem here. One way or another it's happening.....

It being forced is the problem.
The new salution is no different then the old salution because of this.

No.

[legion999]

Discouraged_one wrote...



Starchild, the biggest troll in history

Have you met Javik?

[Ozzy]

In any case, I'm just curious why some of the writers haven't been active in the discussions. It's like the complete opposite of the DA team. I mean, the DA team didn't respond for the first month or so after the game was released but then started getting more and more involved.
It just doesn't feel that way with the ME team. Well, it's a lot more sparse at least.

[TSA_383]

AstusOz wrote...

In any case, I'm just curious why some of the writers haven't been active in the discussions. It's like the complete opposite of the DA team. I mean, the DA team didn't respond for the first month or so after the game was released but then started getting more and more involved.
It just doesn't feel that way with the ME team. Well, it's a lot more sparse at least.

Because this was planned all along and the ending was supposed to be a trick to see how many people would be made to side with the reaper AI (read: indoctrinated)?
Feels like they're making it steadily more and more obvious with each DLC what's really going on in the end sequence. Before the EC it was suspicious, after the EC it was fairly obvious that it was a reaper AI and wanted you to side with it in synthesis... Leviathan seems to take that another step or three.

[Asebstos]

Why would you create an AI to find a solution to conflict between AI and organics? Seems like a conflict of interest.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

The Angry One wrote...
Once again Atreiya superimposes her headcanon onto the ending and presents it as fact. No surprises there.

Because what you're saying about EDI spouting propoganda totally isn't headcanon amirite?

[TSA_383]

Asebstos wrote...

Why would you create an AI to find a solution to conflict between AI and organics? Seems like a conflict of interest.

Seems like a fairly poor idea. There aren't many ways to permanently ensure that war will never happen again...
It seems like the AI just did exactly as it was designed to do, and exactly as it plans to continue doing through further synthesis.

It must be destroyed.