557 réponses à ce sujet

[Headcount]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Yeah, you get a slideshow and some text. How is that any different?

Haters gonna hate.

Because we didn't even have that before the EC which BW gave to us just for damage control.  With the original ME3 ending, the only text I read was that dumb pop up window telling us to Buy more DLC. 

[1Nosphorus1]

Headcount wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Yeah, you get a slideshow and some text. How is that any different?

Haters gonna hate.

Because we didn't even have that before the EC which BW gave to us just for damage control.  With the original ME3 ending, the only text I read was that dumb pop up window telling us to Buy more DLC. 

That, and a fan made theory actually made not only more sense, but was indeed a better story that should've been expanded upon.

[TheRealJayDee]

iakus wrote...

Kilkia123 wrote...

The ending to ME3, in my opinion, felt like it fit in perfectly with the darker tone of the game and did not abandon the themes found throughout the trilogy.

Too dark.  Too bleak.  Bioware writers have been playing too many Witcher games and reading too much George R R Martin.  All choices go beyond sacrifice and into war crime territory.  Shepard beomes a messianic war criminal.  How messed up is that? 

And forced sacrifice isn't sacrifice, it's railroading. 

What iakus said.

[spirosz]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Yeah, you get a slideshow and some text. How is that any different?

Haters gonna hate.

Regardless of how the ending is shown; text/cinematic,etc - it still reflected what you did throughout the game - Side with Templars - it is shown, side with Werewolves, what you did with your companions, etc.  

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

And forced sacrifice isn't sacrifice, it's railroading. 

Of course, then it's not really sacrifice if you're choosing to kill yourself for no reason, is it? Sure, it would be better if we had a choice in what to sacrifice,  but the correct solution isn't to dispel choices and consequences. The Dark Ritual ruins this great opportunity that DA:O presented to make a difficult decision.

[1Nosphorus1]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

iakus wrote...

And forced sacrifice isn't sacrifice, it's railroading. 

Of course, then it's not really sacrifice if you're choosing to kill yourself for no reason, is it? Sure, it would be better if we had a choice in what to sacrifice,  but the correct solution isn't to dispel choices and consequences. The Dark Ritual ruins this great opportunity that DA:O presented to make a difficult decision.

I think many of you misunderstood the aspect of the Dark Ritual.

People chose to sacrifice their Grey Warden to defeat the archdemon, they also chose to refuse the Dark Ritual on the merits of the byproduct being an unknown, not only is the original "soul" of the child destroyed and replaced by the demons untainted one, but you have no idea how Morrigan is going to use this child or if the child would eventually become an enemy in the future.

Witch hunt kind of retconned this, Morrigan got what she wanted despite what happened.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

I think many of you misunderstood the aspect of the Dark Ritual.

People chose to sacrifice their Grey Warden to defeat the archdemon, they also chose to refuse the Dark Ritual on the merits of the byproduct being an unknown, not only is the original "soul" of the child destroyed and replaced by the demons untainted one, but you have no idea how Morrigan is going to use this child or if the child would eventually become an enemy in the future.

Witch hunt kind of retconned this, Morrigan got what she wanted despite what happened.

I understood what it was attempting to do. And thought it was executed horribly. Essentially, the Dark Ritual is a cop-out whose consequences are predicated on two things:

1) Danger presented by the Archdemon
2) Trust in Morrigan 

#2 presents a non-issue since Morrigan has been a trustworthy ally up until this point. And the game doesn't give us enough information to base any judgment off of #1.

My solution? Riordan should have been involved to outline more concrete consequences for letting the Archdemon's soul go, rather than just throwing our hands up in the air and saying "Who knows?". Most choices in Bioware games involve two characters supporting different options and to persuade the PC why their method is better. The Dark Ritual doesn't do this. It exchanges a known, deadly consequence for a less deadly (and easily beneficial) end result. After you actually perform the Dark Ritual, the game pretends it never happened and focuses on the celebration. Choices without consequences, essentially.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 09 août 2012 - 04:26 .

[Paranoidal nemesis]

The ending to Origins I found to be one of the most moving endings I've ever seen in a game. Dragon age 2 was a crime against humanity in almost every regard.

[Iakus]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

iakus wrote...

And forced sacrifice isn't sacrifice, it's railroading. 

Of course, then it's not really sacrifice if you're choosing to kill yourself for no reason, is it? Sure, it would be better if we had a choice in what to sacrifice,  but the correct solution isn't to dispel choices and consequences. The Dark Ritual ruins this great opportunity that DA:O presented to make a difficult decision.

Personally I prefer Redeemer to Dark Ritual.  But yes, DAO lets you decide from an array of choices what to sacrifice.  Mass Effect doesn't.

In ME3, Shepard is always the sacrifice:

Synthesis:  Apparantly a blood sample or TIM's corpse won't do to trigger the space magic.  Meat's gotta be fresh, I guess?

Control:  Someone turned the power up too high on the electrodes

Destroy:  "No, Shepard!  Don't go into the light!"

Refuse Shepard:  "I'm just gonna stand here and bleed out"  Catalyst:  "So be it"

[1Nosphorus1]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
1) Trust in Morrigan 
2) the game pretends it never happened and focuses on the celebration. Choices without consequences, essentially.

1: I always distrusted Morrigan, due to her training and general attitude, she was my Devil's advocate, someone who suggested doing the unpopular or evil way of doing things. My Dwarf who romanced her and went through the portal did end up changing her for the better though.

2: During the celebrations at the end, you can actually name it as one of your choices to Alistair ("I'm going to find Morrigan"), it ends up on her character card that she's spotted travelling somewhere with a baby bump too.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
1) Trust in Morrigan 
2) the game pretends it never happened and focuses on the celebration. Choices without consequences, essentially.

1: I always distrusted Morrigan, due to her training and general attitude, she was my Devil's advocate, someone who suggested doing the unpopular or evil way of doing things. My Dwarf who romanced her and went through the portal did end up changing her for the better though.

2: During the celebrations at the end, you can actually name it as one of your choices to Alistair ("I'm going to find Morrigan"), it ends up on her character card that she's spotted travelling somewhere with a baby bump too.

You can pursue Morrigan. But that's not a negative consequence of the Dark Ritual, which I should have been more clear about. The Dark Ritual is a cop-out because it offers the player the ability to cheat death without a consequence to it, hence the choice is meaningless. Only seconds before, you were confronted with the reality that either you or Alistair were condemned to death.  

Better example of handling the material can be seen in Mass Effect 1 alone:

Virmire: Ashley or Kaidan? Choice, with a clear negative and positive associated with it.

Bringing down the Sky: Stop the insane terrorist from escaping, but at the cost of innocent lives. Or let the terrorist get away, neglecting justice/revenge.

The point is that after the player performs the Dark Ritual, the game gives such apt attention to the "happy" part of the ending (feast, celebration, boons for the Warden), but whatever dark tidings the Ritual might bring are.... utterly non-existent. Contrast that in scenarios where you refuse the ritual, and either you or Alistair are condemned to death.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 09 août 2012 - 05:02 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

Personally I prefer Redeemer to Dark Ritual.  But yes, DAO lets you decide from an array of choices what to sacrifice.  Mass Effect doesn't.

In ME3, Shepard is always the sacrifice:

Synthesis:  Apparantly a blood sample or TIM's corpse won't do to trigger the space magic.  Meat's gotta be fresh, I guess?

Control:  Someone turned the power up too high on the electrodes

Destroy:  "No, Shepard!  Don't go into the light!"

Refuse Shepard:  "I'm just gonna stand here and bleed out"  Catalyst:  "So be it"

Sacrifice is a bit of a strong word for what DA:O lets you do. As I said before, it's not really a sacrifice when the game cops out by letting the player preserve everything. Especially when there were a number of ways to create a concrete consequence for the Dark Ritual via Riordan. This is why I consider the Redeemer ending to be so hollow: what's the point of you or Alistair dying when there's an easy bit of magic to get us out of this mess?

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 09 août 2012 - 05:03 .

[Essalor]

Because the choice is not that clear. When you do the dark ritual Alistair and Riordan are alive and you don't know whether you'll have to sacrifice yourself. So in a way when you do it, you might be

1) cheating on your LI if it isn;t Morrigan (yes, I went for Leliana so sue me)
2) making a demon baby just as an insurance, even though Riordan said he'd sacrifice himself anyway, you got Alistair or sometimes Loghain who can do the whole thing

There;s a lot of options not to die. You sacrifice yourself because you believe it's the best course of events for this universe. While we still don't know what the Demon Child is about, the whole thing is ominous and not very necessary. Bioware better not ruin it by making him all good and mushy.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Games are not art, they are products to be sold. .

Modifié par DinoSteve, 09 août 2012 - 05:48 .

[Iakus]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

iakus wrote...

Personally I prefer Redeemer to Dark Ritual.  But yes, DAO lets you decide from an array of choices what to sacrifice.  Mass Effect doesn't.

In ME3, Shepard is always the sacrifice:

Synthesis:  Apparantly a blood sample or TIM's corpse won't do to trigger the space magic.  Meat's gotta be fresh, I guess?

Control:  Someone turned the power up too high on the electrodes

Destroy:  "No, Shepard!  Don't go into the light!"

Refuse Shepard:  "I'm just gonna stand here and bleed out"  Catalyst:  "So be it"

Sacrifice is a bit of a strong word for what DA:O lets you do. As I said before, it's not really a sacrifice when the game cops out by letting the player preserve everything. Especially when there were a number of ways to create a concrete consequence for the Dark Ritual via Riordan. This is why I consider the Redeemer ending to be so hollow: what's the point of you or Alistair dying when there's an easy bit of magic to get us out of this mess?

A bit of blood magic.  Which the game showed over and over to be a Bad Thing in almost every case.

SUre the consequences of it could have been done better, but you're assuming everyone trusts Morrigan.  Which not everyone does.

Oh, and Logain dies in Redeemer.  The villai atones for teh deaths he caused by sacrificing his own life to save Ferelden.  Friendship with Alistair is damaged, but you are both alive.

[BatmanPWNS]

I don't know how people can say the dark ritual is an easy cop out. Not everyone loves Morrigan, not everyone trusts morrigan, not everyone wants to have babies and lose them. People who loved and trust Morrigan are ok with it but there were people who didn't. It made the choices very hard. It made you think of questions like: Do I want to let my companion dies? Is this sacrifice worth it if we all get to live? Do I really think Morrigan will lead the child to the path of good?

In ME3, there was no questions like that. With Wrex alive, the salarians plan is a joke. Not to mention the war asset for siding with the krogans is huge compare to the salarians. The legion/tali thing is easy too because you can make peace and so there's no lose or consequence for your action. In ME3, there was no risk, no danger compare to how DA:O did it.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

A bit of blood magic.  Which the game showed over and over to be a Bad Thing in almost every case.

"Some might call it blood magic, but that is but a name. There is far more to fear in this world than names."

SUre the consequences of it could have been done better, but you're assuming everyone trusts Morrigan.  Which not everyone does.

The consequences of it are non-existent. If you can outline one consequence seen or referred to in game, I'll give up all argumentation. But it's not there.

You did this with making Loghain a warden, below: you lose Alistair's friendship. Very clear, very direct. You can die killing the Archdemon- consequence. Alistair can die- consequence. Ashley can die, Kaidan can die. You can let Balak escape, or sacrifice the hostages. We're even shown the future of the various factions we helped (Orzammar, the Elves, etc). These are all examples of consequences.

All the Dark Ritual offers us is variations on "this might happen". What might happen? Who knows. When will it happen? A million years down the line. And one among a series of optional endings. In other words: there's no consequence to be seen for this.

Oh, and Logain dies in Redeemer.  The villai atones for teh deaths he caused by sacrificing his own life to save Ferelden.  Friendship with Alistair is damaged, but you are both alive.

A consequence of making Loghain a Warden, not of the Dark Ritual.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

I don't know how people can say the dark ritual is an easy cop out. Not everyone loves Morrigan, not everyone trusts morrigan, not everyone wants to have babies and lose them. People who loved and trust Morrigan are ok with it but there were people who didn't. It made the choices very hard. It made you think of questions like: Do I want to let my companion dies? Is this sacrifice worth it if we all get to live? Do I really think Morrigan will lead the child to the path of good?.

It's simple: I'm not everyone. I see no reason to distrust Morrigan, so I see no moral dilemma offered.

[BatmanPWNS]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

I don't know how people can say the dark ritual is an easy cop out. Not everyone loves Morrigan, not everyone trusts morrigan, not everyone wants to have babies and lose them. People who loved and trust Morrigan are ok with it but there were people who didn't. It made the choices very hard. It made you think of questions like: Do I want to let my companion dies? Is this sacrifice worth it if we all get to live? Do I really think Morrigan will lead the child to the path of good?.

It's simple: I'm not everyone. I see no reason to distrust Morrigan, so I see no moral dilemma offered.

Some do. Some don't. That's the whole point of the ritual......... it's up to you and your opinion to decide if you agree with it or not. In ME3, it's die and no alternate. And please don't say rubble scene Shep's proof his alive. It's just more speculations from Bioware.

[txgoldrush]

Kabraxal wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Essalor wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

iakus wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

DAO is pretty much the way I think most people believed the ending would be handled, excpet with a few more varioations on the endings such as the Reaper's truly winning, no need for a ritual, and varying levels of loss in comparison to DAO.

What ME3 gave us was, as it stands right now, an ending badly rushed with an antagonist thrown in at the last step and suddenly Shepard going stupid to accept what this glowing brat is saying.  I'm sorry, that isn't good writing no matter how many of you wish to defend it.  There was no build to the starchild, there was no logic to why Shepard would suddenly bow to its bull, and it completely altered the thematic style of the trilogy that had been built to that point.  

The only way this ending can truly be salvaged to where it isn't a disappointment is either with another EC that vastly improves the epilogues to give better closure for all characters/decisions or to eventually reveal that not everything is what it seemed to begin with.  Though really, any truly good designer should have known that if you build a game based on choice you damn well better offer actual choice in the end... ranging from consequences of complete loss, sorrow, darkness all the way to slightly bittersweet leaning more towards a victory well earned (newsflash, we still lose people even if we get a damned clean victory with Shepard surviving... that doesn't change the losses that have occured from ME1 onward).  But instead, some designer got it into their head that they had to pound sacrifice and grim bull to be a good ending... that doesn't work in a game where not only are you offering choice, but IT DOESN"T MATCH THE PRIOR THEMATIC SETUP OF THE SERIES.

So yeah... DAO's ending is vastly superior to the moment of stupidity that is ME3's ending.  

Everything you said.  But the bolded part especially.

This whole "sacrifice" theme completely overrode player choice.  That's...not a good thing,.

Just because you have player choice doesn't mean its better written.

Though really, any truly good designer should have known that if you build a game based on choice you damn well better offer actual choice in the end... ranging from consequences of complete loss, sorrow, darkness all the way to slightly bittersweet leaning more towards a victory well earned (newsflash, we still lose people even if we get a damned clean victory with Shepard surviving..

Guess what? Thats what the EC does.

So by this logic you agree that the Original ending was so bad it had to be retconned to boot. You should be the one admitting that even with EC the endings have a logical and lore dissonance. 

I don't really remember Vigil that vividly now, and unfortunately due to the lame endings I have no wish to replay the story. That's why the endings irk so much. They don't just ruin one game. Even if DA2 had a lame ending it doesn't really relate to DA:O that much to be a game changer. In ME3 they end and therefore decide the whole franchise.

The player choice now is atrociously written. Introducing a new character in the end is not a good writing, retconning the whole franchise is not good writing, making three choices which come out of the blue is not good writing, crushing solid lore with magic is not good writing. 

Wow....

1. Plenty of works have introduced a new character at the end of the story, if it was bad writing, no one would do it.

2. And how is the franchise "retconned"...nothing is retconned, unlike Leliana, Wynne, and Morrigan's deaths in Dragon Age. Also DA2's ending definitely fit the game and was far from lame....hell it starts at the end.

3. The original endings did not have lore dissonance, they were just underdeveloped and far too ambigious. But it isn't the only game that got its ending fixed this year...so did The Witcher 2. But the EC sure as hell does strengthen and easily connect better to the themes of the franchise.

4. And once again, the Destroy and Control options were talked about throughout the game, they just don;t show up out of the blue in the ending. And while synthesis does come as a suprise in ME3....Saren was a proponent for synthesis in ME1.

5. Sorry but Prothean VI's don't make "solid lore", their knowledge is limited. Hell Vendetta was wrong about the Catalyst. And as for space magic, whats "The Lazarus Project", explain that to me. Thats not only space magic, thats opening ME2 with a Deus Ex Machina.

Uh... actually those same stories are slammed for it just as much as ME3 has been.  It i s just plain bad writing.  It doesn't work as a RULE.

Please, explain how control and synthetic are different from one another in any really meaningful fashion?  Reapers remain alive, the same races remain alive... the only difference is some space magic that makes no sense at all and the writers only want you to think it is profound in concept when it simply isn't.  It's magic from nowhere with no explanation.

Destroy and refuse... the only other viable alternatives, end up in genocide regardess, with only the reapers dying now instead of later.  Oooo... so different.

Thematically, all of them are smothered in grim dark "THERE MUST BE SACRFICE! "  For crying out loud.. you can get the exact same endings for the most part while killing everyone in 2 and completely screwing up 3.  The only difference, it's somehow even darker.  

ME3's ending is the perfect example of what NOT to do with a video game ending based on offering choice and MARKETING that as a HUGE ASPECT of the franchise.  But then, reading some comments from people saying they didn't want to lock out players from content based on previous choices.. we really shouldn't be surprised we got such a badly written joke of an ending.  Have to appeal to the casuals you know, how dare Bioware actually craft a trilogy where the 3rd game would require 10+ runs to see every major bit of content.  That was what it should have been.. instead we got "another perfect entry for first timers".  The end of a trilogy... being a great entry piont.. that really should have warned us how bad that ending would be.  

Please, they do lock out content....starting the game new, many of the ME2 characters are dead, Wrex is dead, Tali is exiled, and Tali and Garrus are not romancable. In fact the opposite is true, new players get shafted. New players can't bring peace between the geth and the quarians either.

They did not want to lock out entire major missions, which is fine. But do not act like choices don't matter. The future of the Krogan is determined a lot based on ME1.

Speaking of genocide or sacrifice....didn't Shepard have no choice in killing 300,000 Batarians to stop the Reapers? How about wiping out a whole geth city that was connected to the Reapers to save Quarian liveships? Face it, Destroy works because making hard choices that result in many deaths is part of the series themes.

And once again...they do explain how the Crucible works and what it is in the EC, its not space magic or not as much as say The Lazarus Project.

Face it, ME is a dark sci fi series that has the right to be dark, DAO is a wannabe grim dark power fantasy with blood decals on faces to add to "the darkness".

[BaladasDemnevanni]

BatmanPWNS wrote...


Some do. Some don't. That's the whole point of the ritual......... it's up to you and your opinion to decide if you agree with it or not. In ME3, it's die and no alternate. 

Not when I consider the solution to be so straightforward to the Archdemon problem. As I said, if you could outline a single consequence for the dark ritual, it would be a good point. But there's no DA:O2 for us to see what (if anything) I sacrificed in exchange for the Warden's life. DA:O doesn't indicate a consequence for the dark ritual. Maybe Morrigan will arrive at the head of an army of Darkspawn, but the game is so obsessed with beating us over the head with our own victory that I can't say I felt any misgivings about the situation. Hence the Riordan point.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 09 août 2012 - 09:31 .

[txgoldrush]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

ticklefist wrote...

Jesus Christ. Is there a particularly good reason some of you have wasted the better part of a day trying to get a reasonable discussion out of someone using that antagonistic banner in their sig?

Not only that, but I think he's played a different version of Mass Effect 3 to everyone else.

Only he truly understands what Bioware has made, whatever the hell it was it sure wasn't artistic in any way or form.

Or maybe because i get it and you don't.

Hint: The triumph against overwhelming odds is not the only MAJOR theme in play in the ending. Get over it.

[txgoldrush]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...


Some do. Some don't. That's the whole point of the ritual......... it's up to you and your opinion to decide if you agree with it or not. In ME3, it's die and no alternate. 

Not when I consider the solution to be so straightforward and obvious. As I said, if you could outline a single consequence for the dark ritual, you'd have a point. There's no DA:O2 for us to see what (if anything) I sacrificed in exchange for the Warden's life. DA:O doesn't even hint at the cost, meaning there isn't one.  

This.....

Other than the Dwarven king decision, in which Bhelens and Harrowmonts plans for the dwarves were never fleshed out, DAO is simple black and white choices, it just tries to hide it. Its the same as the old Bioware games.

If Leliana approves, its good, if Morrigan approves, its bad.

Nevermind they never follow through on the dark ritual.

[txgoldrush]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

iakus wrote...

Kilkia123 wrote...

The ending to ME3, in my opinion, felt like it fit in perfectly with the darker tone of the game and did not abandon the themes found throughout the trilogy.

Too dark.  Too bleak.  Bioware writers have been playing too many Witcher games and reading too much George R R Martin.  All choices go beyond sacrifice and into war crime territory.  Shepard beomes a messianic war criminal.  How messed up is that? 

And forced sacrifice isn't sacrifice, it's railroading. 

What iakus said.

Please....once again, Arrival and the Geth Consensus, where even paragon Shep has to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of "lives" to accomplish his goal to stop the Reapers.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 09 août 2012 - 09:27 .

[Peranor]

txgoldrush wrote...

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

ticklefist wrote...

Jesus Christ. Is there a particularly good reason some of you have wasted the better part of a day trying to get a reasonable discussion out of someone using that antagonistic banner in their sig?

Not only that, but I think he's played a different version of Mass Effect 3 to everyone else.

Only he truly understands what Bioware has made, whatever the hell it was it sure wasn't artistic in any way or form.

Or maybe because i get it and you don't.

Hint: The triumph against overwhelming odds is not the only MAJOR theme in play in the ending. Get over it.

Oh please... All the threads you've made show that you don't have any frakking clue either. You're just self convinced that you hold the truth. With nothing at all to back up your statements but your baseless assumptions, narrow mind, arrogance and insults.

The only thing you've succeeded in so far is to prove your own sign right.
Shepard do need better fans. Not arrogant and pretentious idiots such as yourself.