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[Pitznik]

Flog61 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins ending is pretty cliche Hollywood ending. Which is still good, and feels good. But it is not really art.

Planescape: Torment is probably closest to catharsis I felt at the end of the video game. That makes it art, in my opinion.

I think that art which has sections which have been done previously is still art.

What you are saying is similar to...........'Handel's messiah uses a lot of plagal cadences (chord progressions) and so any piece that uses plagal cadences from now on is not art'

Your analogy goes way too far. The point of being cliche is that it is so overused it loses meaning and force. there are some elements of Hollywood ending that employed properly can still be artistic enough, but if you just go with simple repeating, it probably won't be. Also I haven't said that "this is Hollywood ending, thus it is not art", but that is it is both Hollywood ending and not art.

Still, it is just my opinion, nothing else.

[blueumi]

at least dragon age 1 and 2 didn't forget what game they were in the last ten mins and change the enitre narrative structure that had been set up

they did not have anything as bad as star child

things you did ment something

I chose to let my warden die sometimes she would live I had choice

[Essalor]

I think that I should clarify that I used the word"art" in a very sarcastic way because apparently it's fashionable to justify the mess of ME3 ending with such an elusive concept.

In truth DA:O ending was just more fulfilling and honest and should have been used as a template for how to make a good ending. I could also go on and say that KOTOR ending was fulfilling, even though the choices were so blunt as Dark Side vs Light Side.

ME is a more emotional experience for sure, I don't think I'd be upset so much if they'd completely flip the ending in DA:O, but I'm sure they wouldn't establish a good franchise in that case. It's more of a testament of the overall quality of the franchise and the fact of how much of that is ruined by the ending.

[Pitznik]

Vox Draco wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins ending is pretty cliche Hollywood ending. Which is still good, and feels good. But it is not really art.

Planescape: Torment is probably closest to catharsis I felt at the end of the video game. That makes it art, in my opinion.

Because PST was from the point you woke up in the morgue a game fully focused on philosophy and deeper meanings etc. The ending of PST was far from being "happy", but it was still perfect for the game you played for many hours, it prepared you for this ending properly, and so the player wasn't really dissapointed the Nameless One didn't settle down with Annah or Grace to live happily ever after...

And that's also why ME3-ending fails so utterly...it is just not consistent with the overall game and story.

No. Just because PST ending evoked a strong emotional response from me, which kind of surprised me. It is all about execution.

ME3 could do the same, even with this ending we have, if it wasn't executed so poorly. Maybe with EC it would be better, but there is no second first impression, so I have settled with it being mediocre. Still, I'm ok with that, nothing would change it now, and I loved the game overall.

[SporkFu]

Vox Draco wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins ending is pretty cliche Hollywood ending. Which is still good, and feels good. But it is not really art.

Planescape: Torment is probably closest to catharsis I felt at the end of the video game. That makes it art, in my opinion.

Because PST was from the point you woke up in the morgue a game fully focused on philosophy and deeper meanings etc. The ending of PST was far from being "happy", but it was still perfect for the game you played for many hours, it prepared you for this ending properly, and so the player wasn't really dissapointed the Nameless One didn't settle down with Annah or Grace to live happily ever after...

And that's also why ME3-ending fails so utterly...it is just not consistent with the overall game and story.

PS:T was unfortunately nowhere near as popular then as the ME series is now, so the reaction to the NameIess One's fate was nowhere near as persistent, but I remember a lot of people being upset at the time. Personally, I would have loved for Fall-From-Grace to go looking for the Nameless One (she hinted she would), but I got over it.

[Vox Draco]

Pitznik wrote...
No. Just because PST ending evoked a strong emotional response from me, which kind of surprised me. It is all about execution.

ME3 could do the same, even with this ending we have, if it wasn't executed so poorly. Maybe with EC it would be better, but there is no second first impression, so I have settled with it being mediocre. Still, I'm ok with that, nothing would change it now, and I loved the game overall.

That's what I said I thought...the execution...over the entirety of teh series that leads to the ending, that is what makes an ending emotional...the cutscene alone? Without the experiences of the game prior won't work...

If the starchild, and all the silliness had been part of the series from at least ME2 onwards in one way or another it might inded have worked as a fitting ending. But as it is now, it feels slapped on like a last-minute-attempt to get over with the story-deadend they wrote themselves into since the end of ME1...

I loved the games too, but the ending was, even more with EC, so utterly a failure that it makes me understand that ME-series never was thought out as a proper trilogy at all...

[Pitznik]

SporkFu wrote...

PS:T was unfortunately nowhere near as popular then as the ME series is now, so the reaction to the NameIess One's fate was nowhere near as persistent, but I remember a lot of people being upset at the time. Personally, I would have loved for Fall-From-Grace to go looking for the Nameless One (she hinted she would), but I got over it.

She's eternal, and so is he, his punishment will end eventually... but it would be silly to show it, it would kill the mood completely. Not impossible, though.

Still, my poor Annah won't live til that day :'(

[SporkFu]

Pitznik wrote...

SporkFu wrote...

PS:T was unfortunately nowhere near as popular then as the ME series is now, so the reaction to the NameIess One's fate was nowhere near as persistent, but I remember a lot of people being upset at the time. Personally, I would have loved for Fall-From-Grace to go looking for the Nameless One (she hinted she would), but I got over it.

She's eternal, and so is he, his punishment will end eventually... but it would be silly to show it, it would kill the mood completely. Not impossible, though.

Still, my poor Annah won't live til that day :'(

I completely agree it would have killed the mood of the game, that's why I got over it. But for a little while there, I was like, "come on, man, don't tell her no!"

[Iakus]

Pitznik wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins ending is pretty cliche Hollywood ending. Which is still good, and feels good. But it is not really art.

Planescape: Torment is probably closest to catharsis I felt at the end of the video game. That makes it art, in my opinion.

How DAO ends depends on you.  Not what the writers say you should do.  The ending can be happy, bitter, or anything in between.

ME3, unless you like dead heroes, you're SOL.

Planescape:  Torment is a fine game, one of the best rpgs ever made, imo.  But it's story is completely different. 

[babymoon]

DA:O ending is very good and fulfilling, and stays true to the story and game throughout. I don't know about dat art though, but ME3 definitely should have taken some notes.

[Vox Draco]

babymoon wrote...

DA:O ending is very good and fulfilling, and stays true to the story and game throughout. I don't know about dat art though, but ME3 definitely should have taken some notes.

More important to me: DA3 should take some notes...a lot of notes...and have a look at ME1-ending as well

[Pitznik]

iakus wrote...

How DAO ends depends on you.  Not what the writers say you should do.  The ending can be happy, bitter, or anything in between.

ME3, unless you like dead heroes, you're SOL.

So does ME3. Except the final choice there is also a future of the galaxy, which you very heavily impacted. Will Krogans die out or will they expand aggressively or will they expand peacefully? Do Geth exist? Do Quarians exist? Do Rachni exist? Who lives, who does not? Does Shepard live?

It all depends on your decisions.

[Twinzam.V]

Vox Draco wrote...

babymoon wrote...

DA:O ending is very good and fulfilling, and stays true to the story and game throughout. I don't know about dat art though, but ME3 definitely should have taken some notes.

More important to me: DA3 should take some notes...a lot of notes...and have a look at ME1-ending as well

Lets hope they dont lose the notes under lots of speculations. 

[Iakus]

Pitznik wrote...

iakus wrote...

How DAO ends depends on you.  Not what the writers say you should do.  The ending can be happy, bitter, or anything in between.

ME3, unless you like dead heroes, you're SOL.

So does ME3. Except the final choice there is also a future of the galaxy, which you very heavily impacted. Will Krogans die out or will they expand aggressively or will they expand peacefully? Do Geth exist? Do Quarians exist? Do Rachni exist? Who lives, who does not? Does Shepard live?

It all depends on your decisions.

Shepard outright dies in every single permutation save Destroy+  Which has a single breath to hint at it, more easter egg than proper ending, as it has no impact on, well, anyhting.

DAO Allows the player to choose whether or not to die.  And choosing to live does not automatically doom the Dalish.

In addition the Warden's survival can affect the ending, based on the boon asked for, and whether Alistair/Logain survive.  SHepard, yeah Shepard's still on the CItadel lacking even the strength to call for help.

[Love Sherri]

One word thread win:

Alistair.

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

DA:O=well executed ending

ME3=very poorly executed ending

[jkflipflopDAO]

 I feel DA:O's ending was fantastic. IMO that entire game was a work of art. It really felt like MY Warden's story when it was all said and done. 

[Han Shot First]

DA:O had a good ending but not a great one.

While the various epilogues were great, DA:O stumbled by giving the player an 'out' when it came to the end game's final decision. One of the main drawbacks to being a Warden is that the method of killing an archdemon, also takes the life of the Warden slaying it.

Heavy stuff, right?

No, not really. Because after dumping that info on you, Bioware goes out of the way to allow the Warden to escape that fate. Morrigan suddenly reveals that impregnating her (LOL) would allow the Warden to survive that final confrontation. This is really only a tough choice if the Warden is female and romancing Alistair, and the Warden has to decide whether to let her boyfriend boink Morrigan. If the Warden is male this isn't a tough decision at all, particularly if that Warden was already romancing Morrigan.

[Edorian27]

DA:O setted the standards of what I expected of Bioware. Never played a better game, including the incredible well ending.
A game that took the player seriously and was mature and well thought of in every way.

BW didn't live up to this promise, they still do good, but not like DA:O.

[jkflipflopDAO]

Han Shot First wrote...

DA:O had a good ending but not a great one.

While the various epilogues were great, DA:O stumbled by giving the player an 'out' when it came to the end game's final decision. One of the main drawbacks to being a Warden is that the method of killing an archdemon, also takes the life of the Warden slaying it.

Heavy stuff, right?

No, not really. Because after dumping that info on you, Bioware goes out of the way to allow the Warden to escape that fate. Morrigan suddenly reveals that impregnating her (LOL) would allow the Warden to survive that final confrontation. This is really only a tough choice if the Warden is female and romancing Alistair, and the Warden has to decide whether to let her boyfriend boink Morrigan. If the Warden is male this isn't a tough decision at all, particularly if that Warden was already romancing Morrigan.

So then your answer to make a "better ending" is to take away all options that you personally don't agree with. You must be a genius.

[BatmanPWNS]

Han Shot First wrote...

DA:O had a good ending but not a great one.

While the various epilogues were great, DA:O stumbled by giving the player an 'out' when it came to the end game's final decision. One of the main drawbacks to being a Warden is that the method of killing an archdemon, also takes the life of the Warden slaying it.

Heavy stuff, right?

No, not really. Because after dumping that info on you, Bioware goes out of the way to allow the Warden to escape that fate. Morrigan suddenly reveals that impregnating her (LOL) would allow the Warden to survive that final confrontation. This is really only a tough choice if the Warden is female and romancing Alistair, and the Warden has to decide whether to let her boyfriend boink Morrigan. If the Warden is male this isn't a tough decision at all, particularly if that Warden was already romancing Morrigan.

Lol, that "out" was genius and love the game for the reason of it being in it.

[Fawx9]

Han Shot First wrote...

DA:O had a good ending but not a great one.

While the various epilogues were great, DA:O stumbled by giving the player an 'out' when it came to the end game's final decision. One of the main drawbacks to being a Warden is that the method of killing an archdemon, also takes the life of the Warden slaying it.

Heavy stuff, right?

No, not really. Because after dumping that info on you, Bioware goes out of the way to allow the Warden to escape that fate. Morrigan suddenly reveals that impregnating her (LOL) would allow the Warden to survive that final confrontation. This is really only a tough choice if the Warden is female and romancing Alistair, and the Warden has to decide whether to let her boyfriend boink Morrigan. If the Warden is male this isn't a tough decision at all, particularly if that Warden was already romancing Morrigan.

>Ignoring the part where the child could be considered the same as the kid from the Omen.

[Pitznik]

iakus wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

iakus wrote...

How DAO ends depends on you.  Not what the writers say you should do.  The ending can be happy, bitter, or anything in between.

ME3, unless you like dead heroes, you're SOL.

So does ME3. Except the final choice there is also a future of the galaxy, which you very heavily impacted. Will Krogans die out or will they expand aggressively or will they expand peacefully? Do Geth exist? Do Quarians exist? Do Rachni exist? Who lives, who does not? Does Shepard live?

It all depends on your decisions.

Shepard outright dies in every single permutation save Destroy+  Which has a single breath to hint at it, more easter egg than proper ending, as it has no impact on, well, anyhting.

DAO Allows the player to choose whether or not to die.  And choosing to live does not automatically doom the Dalish.

In addition the Warden's survival can affect the ending, based on the boon asked for, and whether Alistair/Logain survive.  SHepard, yeah Shepard's still on the CItadel lacking even the strength to call for help.

Shepard is alive at the end of Destroy+. Feel free to headcanon from this point, laws of reality point to death, laws of narrative point to life and rescue, nothing is said for certain. Still at the very end we have Shepard being alive.

Fact that Geth die doesn't matter - that is how it was, not everything depends on you. Fact that the choice is difficult doesn't make it stupid or badly written, it is like being angry at having to pick between Kaidan and Ash - there was no way to save both.

There is nothing wrong about ME3 ending, except for the execution, which was was very poor, and now it is well, mediocre.

Information that Warden has to die to kill Archdemon was last minute exposition, Morrigan's offer was last moment DEM. But it was fine, because it was well executed, not because it somehow makes more sense.

[Pitznik]

Han Shot First wrote...

(...)This is really only a tough choice if the Warden is female and romancing Alistair, and the Warden has to decide whether to let her boyfriend boink Morrigan.(...)

Haha. Actually knowing Alistair's very romantic view on sex and his dislike for Morrigan, he probably had as much pleasure and displeasure from the act.

[Vox Draco]

Han Shot First wrote...
No, not really. Because after dumping that info on you, Bioware goes out of the way to allow the Warden to escape that fate. Morrigan suddenly reveals that impregnating her (LOL) would allow the Warden to survive that final confrontation. This is really only a tough choice if the Warden is female and romancing Alistair, and the Warden has to decide whether to let her boyfriend boink Morrigan. If the Warden is male this isn't a tough decision at all, particularly if that Warden was already romancing Morrigan.

Yeah, as a female-warden-only-player that one was truly tough...and as a male warden romacing Morrigan...I always wondered what so many people saw in that witch ... its her revealing blouse I guess?

Anyway, it is a little like destroy in ME3 then, I suppose...I never cared for either the Geth or EDI, so not a tough choice for me either...

But envisioning my female warden staring into the blank void in a dark room while Alistair her one love is having sex with the woman he utterly despises because my WARDEN asked him of this, risking their love to possibly save it...that's why female warden - Alistair will always be my canon choice of endings, as it is far superior to any other combination, in my opinion...