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[AngryFrozenWater]

txgoldrush wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Shepard's willingness to sacrifice himself is pretty meaningless to your argument. Do you know how many fictional heroes there are who were willing to sacrifice themselves, but still lived in the end? It's a common trait in a hero.

An ending where I can't live unless I kill EDI and the geth is pretty bitter to me.

Agreed. I do not even intend to keep Shepard alive. After all, I know it is the end of the series, but exterminating the geth is not a sacrifice, but betrayal of an ally by genocide. I select destroy anyway, because I see no other way out to get rid of the reapers. It feels dirty and it also feels like stabbing EDI in the back. It's not even a choice comparable to Virmire, where both Ashley and Kaidan knew what was at stake. EDI and the geth were victims of idiocracy: Martyrs of a hypothetical cause.

Wrong

EDI declares that she is willing to risk non functionality to defeat the Reapers.

Of course you conveniently forget about the genocide of the geth and the reason why the geth and EDI had to die. If you want to discuss then respond in a comprehensible fashion. Do not try to isolate one argument and surround that with nonsense to derail this thread. I have no intention to discuss in such a destructive way. Pick someone else to project your aggression to.

Have a nice weekend.

Please tell me the reason that they had to die? Oh wait, it isn;t given, except for that the Crucible firing doesn;t discriminate between Reapers and synthetics. Nevermind it gets much worse at lower EMS.

If you are assuming its part of the Catalyst's plan, then where is your clear evidence?

In fact, the Catalyst tries to DISCOURAGE you from destroying the Reapers.

Do you have a bad day or so? Tone it down.

Whether it is given or not is unimportant to me. It is the genocide of the geth and the murder of EDI which are important in that solution to the non-existent problem. The sooner the brat and its boys disappear the better. In the last billion years or so they have already violated the right of self-determination of countless civilizations by exterminating them using the most horrific ways imaginable. Enough is enough.

[Nightwriter]

txgoldrush wrote...

No, Jacob going with someone else is supposed to make you a bit upset, however, this is actually a GOOD thing. Bioware has the balls to do this.....not everyone stays true, not everything works out the way you want them to.

No, Shepard dies in accordance with the theme of the story. Deal with it. Nevermind he doesn;t really die in high EMS Destroy and doesn't really die in Control either, however he does pay the price here. Only lower EMS destroy and synthesis does he die...and in low EMS destroy explanations.....Catalyst outright says that you will die. Not so with high EMS.

The Force is not strong with you.

I... tried.

[AngryFrozenWater]

iakus wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Shepard's willingness to sacrifice himself is pretty meaningless to your argument. Do you know how many fictional heroes there are who were willing to sacrifice themselves, but still lived in the end? It's a common trait in a hero.

An ending where I can't live unless I kill EDI and the geth is pretty bitter to me.

Agreed. I do not even intend to keep Shepard alive. After all, I know it is the end of the series, but exterminating the geth is not a sacrifice, but betrayal of an ally by genocide. I select destroy anyway, because I see no other way out to get rid of the reapers. It feels dirty and it even feels like stabbing EDI in the back. It's not even a choice comparable to Virmire, where both Ashley and Kaidan knew what was at stake. EDI and the geth were victims of idiocracy: Martyrs of a hypothetical cause.

Agreed 100%

 That we can't even we can't even warn EDI or the geth makes that feel more like a betrayal than a sacrifice..

DAO gave us several possible "sacrifices" to make, each with potential ups and downs. That's a "real" sacrifice. you choose what price is worth paying.

And most importantly, all the Grey Wardens knew the score, what may be asked of them.

Yeah. You cannot warn them. That's the essential difference. And like you said, that feels like betrayal.

[robertm2]

the ending of dragon age origins was exactly how me3's should have been.

[txgoldrush]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Shepard's willingness to sacrifice himself is pretty meaningless to your argument. Do you know how many fictional heroes there are who were willing to sacrifice themselves, but still lived in the end? It's a common trait in a hero.

An ending where I can't live unless I kill EDI and the geth is pretty bitter to me.

Agreed. I do not even intend to keep Shepard alive. After all, I know it is the end of the series, but exterminating the geth is not a sacrifice, but betrayal of an ally by genocide. I select destroy anyway, because I see no other way out to get rid of the reapers. It feels dirty and it also feels like stabbing EDI in the back. It's not even a choice comparable to Virmire, where both Ashley and Kaidan knew what was at stake. EDI and the geth were victims of idiocracy: Martyrs of a hypothetical cause.

Wrong

EDI declares that she is willing to risk non functionality to defeat the Reapers.

Of course you conveniently forget about the genocide of the geth and the reason why the geth and EDI had to die. If you want to discuss then respond in a comprehensible fashion. Do not try to isolate one argument and surround that with nonsense to derail this thread. I have no intention to discuss in such a destructive way. Pick someone else to project your aggression to.

Have a nice weekend.

Please tell me the reason that they had to die? Oh wait, it isn;t given, except for that the Crucible firing doesn;t discriminate between Reapers and synthetics. Nevermind it gets much worse at lower EMS.

If you are assuming its part of the Catalyst's plan, then where is your clear evidence?

In fact, the Catalyst tries to DISCOURAGE you from destroying the Reapers.

Do you have a bad day or so? Tone it down.

Whether it is given or not is unimportant to me. It is the genocide of the geth and the murder of EDI which are important in that solution to the non-existent problem. The sooner the brat and its boys disappear the better. In the last billion years or so they have already violated the right of self-determination of countless civilizations by exterminating them using the most horrific ways imaginable. Enough is enough.

Then destroy is your solution.....basically its the self determination option (nevermind the fact that you can claim self determination with a renegade option with the Catalyst (while Paragon appeals to hope)).

However, the fact is, as its presented, the death of synthetics is a side effect, nothing more. Which makes sense because the Reapers are also synthetic. This is when the "ruthless calculus of war: comes in.

[Nightwriter]

robertm2 wrote...

the ending of dragon age origins was exactly how me3's should have been.

I'm inclined to agree. But I'm wary about what would take the form of the demon god baby. Would Liara approach me telling me to "lay with her this night" so we could form a Reaper asari demonspawn? I shudder to think.

[AngryFrozenWater]

txgoldrush wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Shepard's willingness to sacrifice himself is pretty meaningless to your argument. Do you know how many fictional heroes there are who were willing to sacrifice themselves, but still lived in the end? It's a common trait in a hero.

An ending where I can't live unless I kill EDI and the geth is pretty bitter to me.

Agreed. I do not even intend to keep Shepard alive. After all, I know it is the end of the series, but exterminating the geth is not a sacrifice, but betrayal of an ally by genocide. I select destroy anyway, because I see no other way out to get rid of the reapers. It feels dirty and it also feels like stabbing EDI in the back. It's not even a choice comparable to Virmire, where both Ashley and Kaidan knew what was at stake. EDI and the geth were victims of idiocracy: Martyrs of a hypothetical cause.

Wrong

EDI declares that she is willing to risk non functionality to defeat the Reapers.

Of course you conveniently forget about the genocide of the geth and the reason why the geth and EDI had to die. If you want to discuss then respond in a comprehensible fashion. Do not try to isolate one argument and surround that with nonsense to derail this thread. I have no intention to discuss in such a destructive way. Pick someone else to project your aggression to.

Have a nice weekend.

Please tell me the reason that they had to die? Oh wait, it isn;t given, except for that the Crucible firing doesn;t discriminate between Reapers and synthetics. Nevermind it gets much worse at lower EMS.

If you are assuming its part of the Catalyst's plan, then where is your clear evidence?

In fact, the Catalyst tries to DISCOURAGE you from destroying the Reapers.

Do you have a bad day or so? Tone it down.

Whether it is given or not is unimportant to me. It is the genocide of the geth and the murder of EDI which are important in that solution to the non-existent problem. The sooner the brat and its boys disappear the better. In the last billion years or so they have already violated the right of self-determination of countless civilizations by exterminating them using the most horrific ways imaginable. Enough is enough.

Then destroy is your solution.....basically its the self determination option (nevermind the fact that you can claim self determination with a renegade option with the Catalyst (while Paragon appeals to hope)).

However, the fact is, as its presented, the death of synthetics is a side effect, nothing more. Which makes sense because the Reapers are also synthetic. This is when the "ruthless calculus of war: comes in.

Paragon or renegade has nothing to do with getting rid of the reapers.

It is not self-determination when you are forced to select one of three options which are solutions to a non-existent problem. You have to obey the brat by selecting one. Refusal is not an option, because the cycle continues, which causes the genocide of everyone.

There was no war. The reapers' cyclical maniacal genocidal "ascension through destruction" doctrine was a reproduction method to keep them on top of the food chain. It was slaughter. If the brat had friendly intentions and figured out that its solutions do not work then it would have found a way without the genocide of the geth and the murder of EDI. So far your calculus of war.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 10 août 2012 - 08:44 .

[txgoldrush]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Paragon or renegade has nothing to do with getting rid of the reapers.

It is not self-determination when you are forced to select one of three options which are solutions to a non-existent problem. You have to obey the brat by selecting one. Refusal is not an option, because the cycle continues, which causes the genocide of everyone.

There was no war. The reapers' cyclical maniacal genocidal "ascension through destruction" doctrine was a reproduction method to keep them on top of the food chain. It was slaughter. If the brat had friendly intentions and figured out that its solutions do not work then it would have found a way without the genocide of the geth and the murder of EDI. So far your calculus of war.

No, in fact Shepard never argues against his motives, but his methods....paragons will argue future and hope, reneagdes for choice and freedom. its not important what the motives of the Catalyst are to Shepard, its the cycle that must be stopped. Just like Shepard doesn't really question TIM's motives, but his methods and his indoctrination.

And once again, Destroy is not his solution, in fact, he tries to scare you away using his logic that the chaos will come back, that AI will be created, and that Reapers won't be there to contain it. You as the player can disagree, and choose destroy, leaving the fate of everyone to the choices that organic iife ultimately makes. Its the pro freedom and pro self determination choice. It just comes at the cost of synthetic life due to THE CRUCIBLE targeting synthetics.

If its the Crucible doing this, the destruction of synthetics here isn't in Catalsyt's design, tts just collaterial damage. The ruthless calculus of war.

[1Nosphorus1]

This is how TXgoldrush argues:

1: Start Conversation with please, wrong or no.
2: Strawman, Strawman
3: Mass nonsensical posting, pyramid quoting.
4. Barrage of insults.

ME3's ending destroyed all that ME1&2 had built up, I no longer play either of those games due to the way that not only Shepard and crew were handled, but also the reapers.
It's plot hole galore, you just need to remove the rose tinted glasses. I wanted Shepard to live because this was the end of his trilogy, EA&Bioware have never denied the fact that there will be more adventures in the Mass Effect universe since ME2 was well recieved.

I also wanted Shepard to die, where he chose to sacrifice himself, rather than "Choose your noose to kill yourself with".

[AngryFrozenWater]

txgoldrush wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Paragon or renegade has nothing to do with getting rid of the reapers.

It is not self-determination when you are forced to select one of three options which are solutions to a non-existent problem. You have to obey the brat by selecting one. Refusal is not an option, because the cycle continues, which causes the genocide of everyone.

There was no war. The reapers' cyclical maniacal genocidal "ascension through destruction" doctrine was a reproduction method to keep them on top of the food chain. It was slaughter. If the brat had friendly intentions and figured out that its solutions do not work then it would have found a way without the genocide of the geth and the murder of EDI. So far your calculus of war.

No, in fact Shepard never argues against his motives, but his methods....paragons will argue future and hope, reneagdes for choice and freedom. its not important what the motives of the Catalyst are to Shepard, its the cycle that must be stopped. Just like Shepard doesn't really question TIM's motives, but his methods and his indoctrination.

And once again, Destroy is not his solution, in fact, he tries to scare you away using his logic that the chaos will come back, that AI will be created, and that Reapers won't be there to contain it. You as the player can disagree, and choose destroy, leaving the fate of everyone to the choices that organic iife ultimately makes. Its the pro freedom and pro self determination choice. It just comes at the cost of synthetic life due to THE CRUCIBLE targeting synthetics.

If its the Crucible doing this, the destruction of synthetics here isn't in Catalsyt's design, tts just collaterial damage. The ruthless calculus of war.

Whatever you feel paragons and renegades are supposed to think, it does not matter to the decisions. Maybe you have some kind of color connection to the options or so, but I don't. To me they are equally evil, but only destroy is the way out.

Of course is destroy not a solution, because all options are solutions to a non-existent problem.

What the brat thinks or feels is irrelevant. It overstayed its welcome.

You assume that the Crucible is not the brat's design. You only have its word. Needless to say I do not trust the brat at all. It has already proven many times that it is able to lie. It has even created technology to force organics to believe its lies. That technology is called indoctrination.

The brat is your perfect tour guide. It knows the ins and outs of what the Crucible in combination with the Citadel and the mass relays are supposed to do. It describes the Crucible as merely a crude power source, effective and adaptive in its design. We know it is relatively easy to build. It wants the Crucible there. After all, the three platforms are built on the Citadel and it states that the Citadel is part of the brat and that it is its home. So it either built these themselves or did nothing to remove them. The same goes for the convenient elevator that brings an organic there. It even tells you it is a rather old idea, because Shepard is supposed to be the first organic standing there ever.

The plans and refinements for the Crucible could have been dropped just as the other knowledge and technology to force the civilizations to develop along the path it desires. The Citadel already was a trap to kick off their harvesting cycles. It fits its regular modus operandi just fine.

What is left is the design of the three options. Well, it also tells you that it already tried synthesis several times, but that these eugenic experiments have failed more than once. It seems that it has perfected it now, because it claims that it is safe to use. It also advertizes the idea as the best thing since sliced bread. Just like the hypothetical threat it calls synthesis inevitable, so it must be important. Ghehe. Again, synthesis violates the right of self-determination because the racial identity of all involved is mutilated without their consent. Looks like its handy work is dripping all over it to me. The other options must have been relatively easy to implement if it can pull off synthesis.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 10 août 2012 - 10:11 .

[Baronesa]

Nightwriter wrote...

robertm2 wrote...

the ending of dragon age origins was exactly how me3's should have been.

I'm inclined to agree. But I'm wary about what would take the form of the demon god baby. Would Liara approach me telling me to "lay with her this night" so we could form a Reaper asari demonspawn? I shudder to think.

That would be Liara for Femshep... but I think for maleshep the idea would be Wrex...

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

Agreed 100%

 That we can't even we can't even warn EDI or the geth makes that feel more like a betrayal than a sacrifice..

DAO gave us several possible "sacrifices" to make, each with potential ups and downs.  That's a "real" sacrifice.  you choose what price is worth paying.

And most importantly, all the Grey Wardens knew the score, what may be asked of them.

I still would like to know of this "sacrifice" that the Dark Ritual gave us. I don't recall seeing any concrete negative attached to it. I do recall Alistair surviving, the Warden surviving, and everyone celebrating the victory over the Darkspawn. Vague references to Morrigan disappearing does not a sacrifice make.

As I said, if we had DA:O2 this wouldn't be a problem. Then the victory celebration is more "good times today, suffer tomorrow". But amidst several other ending options and the fact that Bioware is unlikely to pick a canon for the series storyline, the Dark Ritual hasn't amounted to anything and at this point, I think it's unlikely to do so.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 10 août 2012 - 01:46 .

[1Nosphorus1]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...I still would like to know of this "sacrifice" that the Dark Ritual gave us. I don't recall seeing any concrete negative attached to it. I do recall Alistair surviving, the Warden surviving, and everyone celebrating the victory over the Darkspawn. Vague references to Morrigan disappearing does not a sacrifice make.

As I said, if we had DA:O2 this wouldn't be a problem. Then the victory celebration is more "good times today, suffer tomorrow". But amidst several other ending options and the fact that Bioware is unlikely to pick a canon for the series storyline, the Dark Ritual hasn't amounted to anything and at this point, I think it's unlikely to do so.

An unborn childs soul, it is replaced by the Archdemons untainted one, and the fact that it's an anomoly. By not sacrificing your life it could potentially lead to a greater threat in the future.

No-one else get that vibe?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

An unborn childs soul, it is replaced by the Archdemons untainted one, and the fact that it's an anomoly.

An anomaly is not by definition a sacrifice. An anomaly is an oddity, which the child, whether good or evil, would definitely be given his unique origins.

By not sacrificing your life it could potentially lead to a greater threat in the future.
 

Potentially. But we don't exactly have DA:O2 to make that call, and I doubt we're going to see the God Baby in the future, unless Bioware is going to give into canon endings. Hence the point that DA:O is all celebration. The sacrifice is all head-canon. Not unlike the current situation with people complaining that Shepard surviving is headcanoned rather than concrete.

It also doesn't help that when we next see Morrigan in Witch Hunt, she refers to the child as "innocent".

No-one else get that vibe?

Certainly not anyone in the game, since it's never brought up again, aside from Morrigan's disappearance. I mentioned this before, but Riordan would have been great for creating a concrete consequence for the ritual. He's a Warden and could easily have been written to be more "aware" of the consequences.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 10 août 2012 - 02:31 .

[1Nosphorus1]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
1: An anomaly is not by definition a sacrifice. An anomaly is an oddity, which the child, whether good or evil, would definitely be given his unique origins.

2: Certainly not anyone in the game, since it's never brought up again, aside from Morrigan's disappearance. I mentioned this before, but Riordan would have been great for creating a concrete consequence for the ritual. He's a great Warden and could easily have been written to be more "aware" of the consequences.

1: The sacrifice was the unborn child's soul, the anomaly is referred to the changed child, for better or worse he's still an unknown.

2: Does Riordan know about the ritual though? Is it part of Grey Warden history? If they had of known about it surely it would've been almost common place or referenced in against the other blights.

The ritual must've been something cooked up by Flemeth, afterall didn't Morrigan say that was why she had sent her in the first place? That and Flemeth being some kind of skinchanger.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

1: The sacrifice was the unborn child's soul, the anomaly is referred to the changed child, for better or worse he's still an unknown.

Ah, but that's never established. I just rewatched the conversation now. Morrigan never specifies that the Dark Ritual destroys the child's soul to replace it with the Archdemon. Even upon asking whether the child will be hurt, her reply is merely that it will be "changed", but will exist apart from the taint of the Darkspawn.  

Either way, unknowns aren't by definition sacrifices. We don't have DA:O2 to tell us the nature of the God child in the way that ME3 reveals that the Rachni from ME1 are our allies. If Bioware were going for continuity, DA:O's ending isn't a problem. But the Dark Ritual, out of all the endings, presents the greatest potential for a new plot, which we haven't seen any real expansion on. Hence why the Dark Ritual isn't really a sacrifice. All the characters are too busy celebrating that the story doesn't tell us about what we did wrong, only informing us that Morrigan disappeared.

To adapt Iakus' sig: Dead Wardens get consequences. The Dark Ritual gives us vague implications.

2: Does Riordan know about the ritual though? Is it part of Grey Warden history? If they had of known about it surely it would've been almost common place or referenced in against the other blights.

Does he need to have prior knowledge of the ritual? All we really need from Riordan is more knowledge on the nature of the Archdemon and the Old Gods.

Hell, considering how the Wardens managed to keep the nature of the Joining and the fate of any Warden who kills the Archdemon a secret, hidden knowledge of the Dark Ritual wouldn't exactly be a problem for them.

The ritual must've been something cooked up by Flemeth, afterall didn't Morrigan say that was why she had sent her in the first place? That and Flemeth being some kind of skinchanger.

Not necessarily. Remember, Flemeth knows about the Ritual, but during that conversation with Morrigan, I don't recall her saying that Flemeth invented, only that she gave it to Morrigan. But either way, Riordan knowing about the Ritual itself isn't necessary. My point was simply that he needs to find about the ritual via either Morrigan or the PC. He just needs to know more about the nature of the Darkspawn and the souls of the Old Gods. And given that the Grey Wardens are all about knowing the darkspawn and keeping secrets, it certainly wouldn't break the story.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 10 août 2012 - 02:55 .

[TheRealJayDee]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

By not sacrificing your life it could potentially lead to a greater threat in the future.

No-one else get that vibe?

Absolutely - one of the hardest choices there was for my Warden because of this. Sadly I'm convinced now that Bioware will never give us a proper conclusion to this arc, as they've proven (and said) that choices leading to exclusive content is just not how they want to tell their stories.

[1Nosphorus1]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...Ah, but that's never established. I just rewatched the conversation now. Morrigan never specifies that the Dark Ritual destroys the child's soul to replace it with the Archdemon. Even upon asking whether the child will be hurt, her reply is merely that it will be "changed", but will exist apart from the taint of the Darkspawn.

It depends, is the ritual a creation of a vessel for which the Archdemon's soul may enter, or is the child a normal child that carries the taint which is then  over-written by the Archdemon.

Since most of it is headcannon, that is why it's a choice, on my first and my own canon playthrough my Warden sacrificed himself because the suggestion felt wrong, and admitabbly I never thought I would die due to Riordan being alive.

The decision came about that I'd rather sacrifice my own life for Alistair to reign as king.

I think DA2 took the series into the wrong direction completely (Concerning art-style and plot), sadly I don't think a third game can even repair the damage that was done.

[Essalor]

txgoldrush wrote...

Essalor wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Essalor wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Essalor wrote...



And once again, in all 3 choices he sacrifices himself. That's like a non-choice considering his options.

However, once again, the main theme of ME3 is victory through sacrifice...I wonder why the choices revolve around this theme.

Main theme of the series is not victory through sacrifice though. You can't take ME3 as a separate game because it doesn't work solo. Just as ME2 and ME1 don't because they have litterary no ending to the overarching plot.

Why are we pigeonholing the ending of the whole trilogy into the contrived-by-your-logic-only theme of one game?

If last Star Wars went suddenly all dark and everyone would die in Death Star explosion, or shot by Empire would it be okay, or totally against the adventure theme of the previous two movies, especially the cheer of New Hope? I mean Darth Vader sacrificed himself so i suppose that was the theme of all the franchize... like when Ben sacrificed himself for Luke....

Speaking of Star Wars, you prove my point. A single entry can have its own theme not introduced as the trilogy's theme and then have the finale revolve around it. The first trilogy was never about Vader's redemption until Return of the Jedi. But what destroys the Sith, the main problem of the trilogy and brings final victory....the redemption of Vader. The theme of corruption is throughout the trilogy, but the theme of redemption is only ROTJ., Both themes take part in the ending.

Nevermind that sacrifice was a big part of ME1 and ME2 as well.

Erm... the theme of redemption is not the theme of Star Wars. If you think that you completely missed the point just as Lucas has when he decided that was the main point and made prequels focused on the most marketable character he had. 

Sacrifice was never a theme of ME1 or ME2, in fact almost noone willingly sacrifices himself in any of the first two game. You can choose who to KILL on Virmire and you can screw up and choose who to KILL on Collector base. But willful sacrifice... no.

No, redemption is the theme of ROTJ. Why does Luke go through all that effort to help redeem his father? To see the good in him. Its quite clear.

And its not just willing self sacrifice, it is also the burden that a leader may have to be willing to sacrifice his men or the few to save the many. The theme of sacrifice is much more than just self sacrifice. Hell, TIM is a villianous representation of forceful sacrifice, but instead of good, its for lust for power.

Both are displayed on Virmire...Ash or Kaiden are willing to sacrifice their lives for the mission while Shepard has teh burden to choose who lives or dies.

Vigil on Ilos shut down life pods of non essential staff to conserve nergy for essential staff, to sabatoge the Keepers, giving the next cycle the chance.

Shepard dying to svae Joker in ME2.

Many paragon and renegade options throughout the trilogy involve sacrifice.

ME2 Arrival, need I say more.

Then it becomes the main theme of ME3.

Redemption is one of the themes introdudec in RoTJ for the character of Darth Vader and Luke, but once again it's not the main theme of the movie, nor does it dominate the finale. It's just one of the sublplots, reappearing here and there but not suddenly taking over the fina; 10 minutes of the movie. Nor is the theme of sacrifice even though in theory Luke does sacrifice his life to redeem his father and tells to the Emperor that they will both die. And then he survives... 

Ash or Kaidan don't have a choice but to sacrifice their lives once Sheaprd chooses. Once again it's a forced sacrifice. That mission is almost identical to all others only it turns awry and you have to make a decision killing off one of them. 

And once again Shepard certainly doesn't sacrifice himself to save Joker. Where did you get that? He was expecting to board the escape pod with him until he got blown away. 

In ME2 arrival once again he has no choice in the matter. What sacrifice are you even talking about? Batarians? They would be harvested anyway straightaway instead of blown up so I guess that doesn't count.  

[Iakus]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

I still would like to know of this "sacrifice" that the Dark Ritual gave us. I don't recall seeing any concrete negative attached to it. I do recall Alistair surviving, the Warden surviving, and everyone celebrating the victory over the Darkspawn. Vague references to Morrigan disappearing does not a sacrifice make.

As I said, if we had DA:O2 this wouldn't be a problem. Then the victory celebration is more "good times today, suffer tomorrow". But amidst several other ending options and the fact that Bioware is unlikely to pick a canon for the series storyline, the Dark Ritual hasn't amounted to anything and at this point, I think it's unlikely to do so.

 First, you're trusting that Morrigan isn't lying or wrong.  She can be, and has been both in the past.

Second, assuming that this ritual works out as planned, you will be unleashing a Tevinter Old God on Thedas again.  a being which, according to the codex, forst introduced blood magic to the magisters.  To be raised by Morrigan.  Even without the taint, this will undoubtably change the face of Thedas in ways no one could possibly predict.  

Yes, I wish the consequences were shown better for this decision.  But it's still a choice a had to sit and think about for some time.  And it's a choice I only made once.  The DAO end choices were all tough calls.  Not like ME3 where I just went "this is stupid"

[Vox Draco]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...
An unborn childs soul, it is replaced by the Archdemons untainted one, and the fact that it's an anomoly. By not sacrificing your life it could potentially lead to a greater threat in the future.

No-one else get that vibe?

Of course, it is the main point it is called the Dark Ritual. But none of my Wardens see a point in sacrificing their live or that of a potential love-interest. Loghain may perish, that is fine, but there are constellations where this is not possible.

And I also see it the other way around...what if sacrificing the Warden or someone else leads to an even greater threat? Maybe the Warden could have stopped a great danger in the future, saving thousands, if s/he had not perished at the top of the tower, throwing his/her life away.

The future is unwritten, death at the hands of the Archdemon a certainty for one Warden at least...the threat Morrigan's offer poses is hypothetical at best. The Ritual is the human choice to take, and I admit I hate that whole heroic sacrifice stuff...why death when there seems to be a way around it. We deal with one problem after another, and I think it is only human that we want to actually be alive to encounter this new problem

Of course for me personally it helps that almost none of my Wardens have any love for the doctrines of the Wardens, or sympathy for Duncan. Especially my "canon" female Couslands despise Duncan as a murderer who forced her into the Wardens by threat of killing her like poor Ser Jory...so she has no problem (well....at least not with the outcome...*cough*) with the Dark Ritual...it is like a middle finger to the Wardens for her to kill the demon and survive...and my headcanon even frees her of the taint forever...thanks to Morrigan again...

[Outamyhead]

Atakuma wrote...

The ending of DAO did not reflect any of your choices.

You have to kill the
Arch-Demon, your choice is send Alstair, send potential other guy, you
do it...Either way a grey warden has to kill the Arch Demon or take it's
place, that was the mission all along...what choices you made along the way was up to you.

That was a brilliant story, and knowing your cursed with an early death, or an even earlier death depending on your choice at the end, you already know your choices are limited.

[Novate]

MerchantGOL wrote...

Flog61 wrote...


And i don't need  nor  want  to read a bunch of paragraphs of trivial bull ****, iam fine wiht a genuine feeling  of  the future

That one sentence explains everything,
Its because some gamers thinks like this that we have defenders for the ME3 ending.  They aren't wrong in any way, its their right as Gamers and Consumers to feel the way they do, same for everyone else that doesn't.
Same for different Religious Beliefs , same for different Political Views.

In this world, there are those that believed that the Twin Tower were never destroyed, there are those that believed that World War 2 was made up in the History Books, there are those that still believed that the Holocaust never happened. Regardless of the evidence, regardless of the facts, people's own belief systems will never change.
IF you never believe in Heaven or Hell and an Angel and Demon appears before you, they will still be people in costumes.

Someone in another thread, posted an similiar encounter by Kirk and Spock in Star Trek where they talked the AI into self destruction through logic. The original Poster of this Thread shown that the same company Bioware whom created ME3 also created an Earlier Game called DA:O that shown everyone the possibilities of endings that was universally acclaimed for wonderful Story Telling. Regardless of personal preference, many more liked it than those that disliked it. And provided the reasons as being the ability to make the Main Character feel like we the Gamers are in Control .

ME3 provided that feeling until the encounter with Starchild. Its a fact that we as Gamers was not given an option to talk the Starchild down, nor given the options in our dialogue tree to try to use Logic as Kirk and Spock did, nor were we given an Option to call for help. The only options that was given to us by the Developers was the 3 choices. The 3 choices that provides no connections to everyone's Shepard, unlike DA:O, your Warden feels like your warden, you were given enough variations that comes close to what your Warden would do.

I know someone will disagree with me in providing this next statement.
" ME3 is Flawed, It could have been better, but its not" No reason to linger any longer, they will never retcon the ending nor improve on it. My shepard is dead, Mass Effect has ended and the last hope I have from the DLC leviathan was struck down. Good luck to all in your efforts.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

First, you're trusting that Morrigan isn't lying or wrong.  She can be, and has been both in the past.

Sure, but whether this has any meaning isn't clear. Your analysis only has meaning if we eventually get to see whether Morrigan was lying or wrong. I've pointed this out a few times now, but there isn't a DA:O2 for what you're saying to matter. Can you tell me what exactly we sacrificed by trusting Morrigan? If not, it's not really relevant since the sacrifices we made don't extend beyond Origins itself.

That everyone is alive and safe via the Dark Ritual is confirmed in Origins. I can point you to the sequence illustrating this. That we have caused a potential disaster in the future is not clear. There's nothing in the game beyond possibilities, meaning you sacrificed nothing via the Dark Ritual. You "might have" sacrificed something. Which is suspiciously close to Shepard "possibly" surviving.

Second, assuming that this ritual works out as planned, you will be unleashing a Tevinter Old God on Thedas again.  a being which, according to the codex, forst introduced blood magic to the magisters.  To be raised by Morrigan.  Even without the taint, this will undoubtably change the face of Thedas in ways no one could possibly predict.  

But given your interpretation of the end result, I would think that the ending sequence should reflect this more accurately. Something more substantial then "Hey, Archdemon's dead. Let's drink and party". The Dark Ritual only has consequences as headcanon, since we don't actually have any idea what happens in the aftermath. 

Again, Dead Wardens get consequences. The Dark Ritual gives vague implications.  

Yes, I wish the consequences were shown better for this decision.  But it's still a choice a had to sit and think about for some time.  And it's a choice I only made once.  The DAO end choices were all tough calls.  Not like ME3 where I just went "this is stupid"

 It was a choice I made fairly easily. And it appears to have worked out for the best when limited to DA:O.

My overall point: ME3 screws up in many ways, but that does not mean I consider DA:O an excellent model to follow. Examples like using the Circle of Magi to save Connor and the Dark Ritual nullify the concept of sacrifice/consequences.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 10 août 2012 - 06:55 .

[BatmanPWNS]

I find it hilarious and sad that we can make get more pages about a Dragon Age topic in the ME section then the dragon age section usually does.