BatmanPWNS wrote...
I find it hilarious and sad that we can make get more pages about a Dragon Age topic in the ME section then the dragon age section usually does.
Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 10 août 2012 - 06:56 .
BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Sure, but whether this has any meaning isn't clear. Your analysis only has meaning if we eventually get to see whether Morrigan was lying or wrong. I've pointed this out a few times now, but there isn't a DA:O2 for what you're saying to matter. Can you tell me what exactly we sacrificed by trusting Morrigan? If not, it's not really relevant since the sacrifices we made don't extend beyond Origins itself.
But given your interpretation of the end result, I would think that the ending sequence should reflect this more accurately. Something more substantial then "Hey, Archdemon's dead. Let's drink and party". The Dark Ritual only has consequences as headcanon, since we don't actually have any idea what happens in the aftermath.
Again, Dead Wardens get consequences. The Dark Ritual gives vague implications.
It was a choice I made fairly easily. And it appears to have worked out for the best when limited to DA:O.
BatmanPWNS wrote...
I find it hilarious and sad that we can make get more pages about a Dragon Age topic in the ME section then the dragon age section usually does.
BatmanPWNS wrote...
I find it hilarious and sad that we can make get more pages about a Dragon Age topic in the ME section then the dragon age section usually does.
Vox Draco wrote...Though I am still afraid DA3 will reveal the true origin of the Darkspawn...made by the Maker to prevent humans from wiping out humans, so they wipe out humans...something like that...
iakus wrote...
Female Wardens who romanced Alistair are not always happy with this "non sacrifice"
In addition, Wardens may not like the idea of using blood magic to live. And Morrigan admits that's what it is. Throughout the game we've seen what sort of damage Blood magic can do. It's "role playing"
I did say I wished the consequences were laid out better. And to this day people want to know what becomes of the OGB. But keep in mind the Dark Ritual is only one of four sacrifices. As opposed to ME3, where there's really Just Ultimate Sacrifice.
You found one you liked. Congrats. I like Redeemer. Congrats on me.
Now if only ME3 offered choices each of us could live with. And I mean that in more than one sense of the word.
Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 10 août 2012 - 07:43 .
BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
You misunderstand. DA:O provided me with what I consider an easy solution. That doesn't make it a solution I enjoyed. About a post ago, you mentioned how you had to think heavily on your decision before making it. I did not, hence I find it handled terribly.
Let there be no illusions: I want my decisions to be difficult (see Virmire). That it wasn't, that I don't consider there to have been a sacrifice, is exactly the problem. You're suggesting there were four potential sacrifice endings without being able to identify four. I'm pointing out that there were only three: Loghain, you, and Alistair, since we still have no idea where the Dark Ritual will lead us.
Modifié par Vox Draco, 10 août 2012 - 08:04 .
iakus wrote...
And ME3 provided me with three (now 4) non-solutions. The choice was easy for me not because I found one to be an easy way out, but because it sucked the least. And it still sucked really really bad.
And I still hold that there are four sacrifice endings, even if the Dark Ritual doesn't come to fruitition in that game. Remember, DAO is the first in a series. ME3 is the last in a trilogy. We don't know what, if anything will be done with it.
But even if we went by your analysis and said the Dark Ritual is a "non sacrifice" that still leaves three choices on a sacrifice for players who want to role play a sacrifice. ME3 still has only one. Regardless of player choice.
Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 10 août 2012 - 09:26 .
But ME3's ending wasn't thought provoking for me. The difficulty it attempted to impose on me felt contrived and false.BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
You misunderstand. DA:O provided me with what I consider an easy solution. That doesn't make it a solution I enjoyed. About a post ago, you mentioned how you had to think heavily on your decision before making it. I did not, hence I find it handled terribly.
Let there be no illusions: I want my decisions to be difficult (see Virmire). That it wasn't, that I don't consider there to have been a sacrifice, is exactly the problem. You're suggesting there were four potential sacrifice endings without being able to identify four. I'm pointing out that there were only three: Loghain, you, and Alistair, since we still have no idea where the Dark Ritual will lead us.
BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
iakus wrote...
And ME3 provided me with three (now 4) non-solutions. The choice was easy for me not because I found one to be an easy way out, but because it sucked the least. And it still sucked really really bad.
I don't recall saying that the ME3 solutions didn't suck. But if the question of suckage is a question of "Bioware implying that Shepard survives" vs. "Bioware hinting that the dark ritual might have a negative consequence", that's not exactly casting DA:O in a positive light, especially since indications up to this point are that the OGB won't come back in any significant context.And I still hold that there are four sacrifice endings, even if the Dark Ritual doesn't come to fruitition in that game. Remember, DAO is the first in a series. ME3 is the last in a trilogy. We don't know what, if anything will be done with it.
DA:O is the first in a series where each installment has been utterly independent of each other and where consequences from previous games have been mostly ignored and side-lined in subsequent installments. And Dragon Age wasn't planned as a trilogy, by all accounts. You yourself indicated that the implications of the OGB could be huge. Which means either we're going to see a forced canon or it's given the Rachni treatment and rendered insignificant. I can't say fan reaction to either of these possibilities will be positive, given past instances.
Beyond unknowns, you haven't been able to offer anything concrete, which is the entire problem with this line of argument. Bioware "might" bring the God Baby back in the future. Bioware "might" introduce a negative consequence for helping Morrigan. But so far, Bioware hasn't. I can tell you what the sacrifices in the other endings are. You can't say the same for the dark ritual. All we have is headcanon consequences.But even if we went by your analysis and said the Dark Ritual is a "non sacrifice" that still leaves three choices on a sacrifice for players who want to role play a sacrifice. ME3 still has only one. Regardless of player choice.
Sacrificing something when the game provides you an easy method of sacrificing nothing is like purposely solving a math problem incorrectly. Or like that hollow feeling of sacrificing characters during the suicide mission when the variables to success are straightforward.
In other words: role-playing a sacrifice only works when the game gives you sufficient material to buy into it. If you're suggesting that playes should simply choose between a sacrifice or a not sacrifice, then that simply spits in the face of hard decisions in gaming.
Nightwriter wrote...
But ME3's ending wasn't thought provoking for me. The difficulty it attempted to impose on me felt contrived and false.
It was a form of Darkness Induced Audience Apathy. All the choices were bad. It didn't inspire deep thinking; it forced me to decided which one sucked the least. That isn't good drama.
Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 10 août 2012 - 11:07 .
BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Nightwriter wrote...
But ME3's ending wasn't thought provoking for me. The difficulty it attempted to impose on me felt contrived and false.
It was a form of Darkness Induced Audience Apathy. All the choices were bad. It didn't inspire deep thinking; it forced me to decided which one sucked the least. That isn't good drama.
ME3's endings definitely weren't thought-provoking. At least, the grimmer parts of it weren't. But the thread topic is "DA:O ending is art". That I consider DA:O flawed does not mean that I don't consider ME3 more flawed. I'm just attempting to illustrate the point that the Dark Ritual isn't the platonic form which we should be holding ME3 to.
What I will say is that DA:O did a great job of letting me resolve all affairs with my companions. I really like that victory walk where you finally get to say bye to everyone individually and see where they're headed in life. The first (and last) time that Bioware ever did that in a game.
Killdren88 wrote...
Oh man. I wanna play DA:O now. Thanks thread! If only ME3 had the same depth in choices DA had. It would have been better.
Killdren88 wrote...
Oh man. I wanna play DA:O now. Thanks thread! If only ME3 had the same depth in choices DA had. It would have been better.
Essalor wrote...
BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
iakus wrote...
And ME3 provided me with three (now 4) non-solutions. The choice was easy for me not because I found one to be an easy way out, but because it sucked the least. And it still sucked really really bad.
I don't recall saying that the ME3 solutions didn't suck. But if the question of suckage is a question of "Bioware implying that Shepard survives" vs. "Bioware hinting that the dark ritual might have a negative consequence", that's not exactly casting DA:O in a positive light, especially since indications up to this point are that the OGB won't come back in any significant context.And I still hold that there are four sacrifice endings, even if the Dark Ritual doesn't come to fruitition in that game. Remember, DAO is the first in a series. ME3 is the last in a trilogy. We don't know what, if anything will be done with it.
DA:O is the first in a series where each installment has been utterly independent of each other and where consequences from previous games have been mostly ignored and side-lined in subsequent installments. And Dragon Age wasn't planned as a trilogy, by all accounts. You yourself indicated that the implications of the OGB could be huge. Which means either we're going to see a forced canon or it's given the Rachni treatment and rendered insignificant. I can't say fan reaction to either of these possibilities will be positive, given past instances.
Beyond unknowns, you haven't been able to offer anything concrete, which is the entire problem with this line of argument. Bioware "might" bring the God Baby back in the future. Bioware "might" introduce a negative consequence for helping Morrigan. But so far, Bioware hasn't. I can tell you what the sacrifices in the other endings are. You can't say the same for the dark ritual. All we have is headcanon consequences.But even if we went by your analysis and said the Dark Ritual is a "non sacrifice" that still leaves three choices on a sacrifice for players who want to role play a sacrifice. ME3 still has only one. Regardless of player choice.
Sacrificing something when the game provides you an easy method of sacrificing nothing is like purposely solving a math problem incorrectly. Or like that hollow feeling of sacrificing characters during the suicide mission when the variables to success are straightforward.
In other words: role-playing a sacrifice only works when the game gives you sufficient material to buy into it. If you're suggesting that playes should simply choose between a sacrifice or a not sacrifice, then that simply spits in the face of hard decisions in gaming.
You are being unfair. We had a DA expansion which followed the story original and we had DA2 which was set in another city. So we have one game which is set in a different city and still has crossovers with the characters from Origins. Not to say that game is not what I'm discussing as it was clearly rushed in a year and a half to retail. However one might notice that templar vs mage conflict in Kirkwall was not only a dominant theme throughout DA2 but was a dominant theme through the whole series.
As on now there's no evidence that DA3 will not feature any returns from the original.
Actually not to follow up on that child would be a big mistake... It's true that it wasn't explained well in Origins what happens to him, but the material is glimmering with potential.
The fact that there would be an ending without the final sacrifice would not mean a happy end. Shepard has no choice but to kill himself and that's considered okay because if he had an option to survive it wouldn't be dark enough? How about noticing that in all cases the whole galaxy is in ruins, you lose squadmates and friends... moreover you lose so much more: whole races, more friends etc. if you play and make bad choices or simply don't care enough. Wasn't that meaningful?
Modifié par txgoldrush, 11 août 2012 - 04:23 .
txgoldrush wrote...
And who said Shepards sacrifice is dark? You didn't get the part where the galaxy is free from the Reaper cycle and everyone lives with hope for the future, and the companions together as friends. The good ending is far from dark. Bittersweet, perhaps, more far more hopeful than depressing. And it has far more emotional depth than that of DAO.
Once again, just because the protagonist dies doesn't make it "grimdark". The fact that he was called.
Just like Mordin if the genophage is cured....with his death, the krogan finally have hope.
Just like Legion if the geth is sided with or peace is achieved....his death gave the geth freedom.
And notice how the track of ME1 called "Vigil" plays in these scenes as well as very last scene. it must be symbolic of hope through sacrifice, just like the Protheans on Ilos (where this track appears) in ME1.
iakus wrote...
txgoldrush wrote...
And who said Shepards sacrifice is dark? You didn't get the part where the galaxy is free from the Reaper cycle and everyone lives with hope for the future, and the companions together as friends. The good ending is far from dark. Bittersweet, perhaps, more far more hopeful than depressing. And it has far more emotional depth than that of DAO.
Once again, just because the protagonist dies doesn't make it "grimdark". The fact that he was called.
Just like Mordin if the genophage is cured....with his death, the krogan finally have hope.
Just like Legion if the geth is sided with or peace is achieved....his death gave the geth freedom.
And notice how the track of ME1 called "Vigil" plays in these scenes as well as very last scene. it must be symbolic of hope through sacrifice, just like the Protheans on Ilos (where this track appears) in ME1.
Maybe in a standard action game where the player is led by the nose through the story. and told to shoot stuff
But in a game where player agency is touted as something important, the player should have a voice in minor details such as whether the protagonist lives or dies.
Modifié par txgoldrush, 11 août 2012 - 05:19 .
txgoldrush wrote...
iakus wrote...
txgoldrush wrote...
And who said Shepards sacrifice is dark? You didn't get the part where the galaxy is free from the Reaper cycle and everyone lives with hope for the future, and the companions together as friends. The good ending is far from dark. Bittersweet, perhaps, more far more hopeful than depressing. And it has far more emotional depth than that of DAO.
Once again, just because the protagonist dies doesn't make it "grimdark". The fact that he was called.
Just like Mordin if the genophage is cured....with his death, the krogan finally have hope.
Just like Legion if the geth is sided with or peace is achieved....his death gave the geth freedom.
And notice how the track of ME1 called "Vigil" plays in these scenes as well as very last scene. it must be symbolic of hope through sacrifice, just like the Protheans on Ilos (where this track appears) in ME1.
Maybe in a standard action game where the player is led by the nose through the story. and told to shoot stuff
But in a game where player agency is touted as something important, the player should have a voice in minor details such as whether the protagonist lives or dies.
No, he shouldn't because player agency should not dictate everything.
The Nameless One is always damned, no matter what he does. The Vault Dweller is always exiled no matter his decisions (and the last conversation in the first Fallout is railroaded).
Nevermind the player does have agency on the fate of the galaxy.
txgoldrush wrote...
Essalor wrote...
BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
iakus wrote...
And ME3 provided me with three (now 4) non-solutions. The choice was easy for me not because I found one to be an easy way out, but because it sucked the least. And it still sucked really really bad.
I don't recall saying that the ME3 solutions didn't suck. But if the question of suckage is a question of "Bioware implying that Shepard survives" vs. "Bioware hinting that the dark ritual might have a negative consequence", that's not exactly casting DA:O in a positive light, especially since indications up to this point are that the OGB won't come back in any significant context.And I still hold that there are four sacrifice endings, even if the Dark Ritual doesn't come to fruitition in that game. Remember, DAO is the first in a series. ME3 is the last in a trilogy. We don't know what, if anything will be done with it.
DA:O is the first in a series where each installment has been utterly independent of each other and where consequences from previous games have been mostly ignored and side-lined in subsequent installments. And Dragon Age wasn't planned as a trilogy, by all accounts. You yourself indicated that the implications of the OGB could be huge. Which means either we're going to see a forced canon or it's given the Rachni treatment and rendered insignificant. I can't say fan reaction to either of these possibilities will be positive, given past instances.
Beyond unknowns, you haven't been able to offer anything concrete, which is the entire problem with this line of argument. Bioware "might" bring the God Baby back in the future. Bioware "might" introduce a negative consequence for helping Morrigan. But so far, Bioware hasn't. I can tell you what the sacrifices in the other endings are. You can't say the same for the dark ritual. All we have is headcanon consequences.But even if we went by your analysis and said the Dark Ritual is a "non sacrifice" that still leaves three choices on a sacrifice for players who want to role play a sacrifice. ME3 still has only one. Regardless of player choice.
Sacrificing something when the game provides you an easy method of sacrificing nothing is like purposely solving a math problem incorrectly. Or like that hollow feeling of sacrificing characters during the suicide mission when the variables to success are straightforward.
In other words: role-playing a sacrifice only works when the game gives you sufficient material to buy into it. If you're suggesting that playes should simply choose between a sacrifice or a not sacrifice, then that simply spits in the face of hard decisions in gaming.
You are being unfair. We had a DA expansion which followed the story original and we had DA2 which was set in another city. So we have one game which is set in a different city and still has crossovers with the characters from Origins. Not to say that game is not what I'm discussing as it was clearly rushed in a year and a half to retail. However one might notice that templar vs mage conflict in Kirkwall was not only a dominant theme throughout DA2 but was a dominant theme through the whole series.
As on now there's no evidence that DA3 will not feature any returns from the original.
Actually not to follow up on that child would be a big mistake... It's true that it wasn't explained well in Origins what happens to him, but the material is glimmering with potential.
The fact that there would be an ending without the final sacrifice would not mean a happy end. Shepard has no choice but to kill himself and that's considered okay because if he had an option to survive it wouldn't be dark enough? How about noticing that in all cases the whole galaxy is in ruins, you lose squadmates and friends... moreover you lose so much more: whole races, more friends etc. if you play and make bad choices or simply don't care enough. Wasn't that meaningful?
And who said Shepards sacrifice is dark? You didn't get the part where the galaxy is free from the Reaper cycle and everyone lives with hope for the future, and the companions together as friends. The good ending is far from dark. Bittersweet, perhaps, more far more hopeful than depressing. And it has far more emotional depth than that of DAO.
Once again, just because the protagonist dies doesn't make it "grimdark". The fact that he was called.
Just like Mordin if the genophage is cured....with his death, the krogan finally have hope.
Just like Legion if the geth is sided with or peace is achieved....his death gave the geth freedom.
And notice how the track of ME1 called "Vigil" plays in these scenes as well as very last scene. it must be symbolic of hope through sacrifice, just like the Protheans on Ilos (where this track appears) in ME1.
iakus wrote...
txgoldrush wrote...
iakus wrote...
txgoldrush wrote...
And who said Shepards sacrifice is dark? You didn't get the part where the galaxy is free from the Reaper cycle and everyone lives with hope for the future, and the companions together as friends. The good ending is far from dark. Bittersweet, perhaps, more far more hopeful than depressing. And it has far more emotional depth than that of DAO.
Once again, just because the protagonist dies doesn't make it "grimdark". The fact that he was called.
Just like Mordin if the genophage is cured....with his death, the krogan finally have hope.
Just like Legion if the geth is sided with or peace is achieved....his death gave the geth freedom.
And notice how the track of ME1 called "Vigil" plays in these scenes as well as very last scene. it must be symbolic of hope through sacrifice, just like the Protheans on Ilos (where this track appears) in ME1.
Maybe in a standard action game where the player is led by the nose through the story. and told to shoot stuff
But in a game where player agency is touted as something important, the player should have a voice in minor details such as whether the protagonist lives or dies.
No, he shouldn't because player agency should not dictate everything.
The Nameless One is always damned, no matter what he does. The Vault Dweller is always exiled no matter his decisions (and the last conversation in the first Fallout is railroaded).
Nevermind the player does have agency on the fate of the galaxy.
Frankly it's laughable to compare Planescape and ME3. In fact, PS:T is pretty much the only rpg I've ever heard of, let alone played, where the inevitable death of the protagonist works. SInce the story was always about defining the identity of the Nameless One and never about survival at any level.(and in that area, yes, you have huge agency)
The Vault Dweller can side with the Master. And if he's exiled, he can kill the Overseer. in retaliation
Essalor wrote...
Ye, well only in that weird green utopia they do. When you're given no choice but to die, it's pretty dark in my book. Dark Ritual is not a cop out, and if you missed the posts explaining that, then read up. Short version: there are things at stake which you might value more than your life.
You always eager to skip on things that don't please you so that you can bring in more nitpicks to prove your shoddy theory which is easily disproven by simple logic.
The endings don't make logical sense. They don't fit the narrative, the character of Shepard, they don't reflect in-game choices to the extent of DA:O or anything that was promised, and even other choices made in ME3 to resolve other conflicts. They induce plotholes and have shoddy writing. Ergo they suck.
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