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#551
BaladasDemnevanni

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Essalor wrote...

You are being unfair. We had a DA expansion which followed the story original and we had DA2 which was set in another city. So we have one game which is set in a different city and still has crossovers with the characters from Origins. Not to say that game is not what I'm discussing as it was clearly rushed in a year and a half to retail. However one might notice that templar vs mage conflict in Kirkwall was not only a dominant theme throughout DA2 but was a dominant theme through the whole series.


And yet, look at the general reaction which ME3 has received for its perceived failure in implementing choices and consequences. And that was a trilogy where the concept of the import was planned from the start.

So if ME3 couldn't do this adequately, why do we believe that DA:O's sequels are going to, given that the latter is not designed with a branching story structure from previous games, is based more around setting than any particular set of characters, and never pushed the import feature to the same extent Mass Effect did? Add on top of that Bioware's approach so far to utilizing the import feature, Witch Hunt's approach to the God Child, and the actual difficulty associated with building a story around such a plot point (since it's only one option in DA:O which leaves unresolved issues), and you're pushing for a very difficult argument, that Bioware is going to implement the God Child to any satisfying extent.

As on now there's no evidence that DA3 will not feature any returns from the original. 


Arguments from ignorance are not valid. Lack of proof is not itself proof.

Actually not to follow up on that child would be a big mistake... It's true that it wasn't explained well in Origins what happens to him, but the material is glimmering with potential. 


Exactly. Potential. That's the source of your misunderstanding. The structure of the Dark Ritual is such that we don't know if there is a sacrifice. It's built in the same style as the Rachni Queen: do you trust this person enough to let her go? And notice how the Rachni Queen scenario doesn't actually incorporate a sacrifice for which choice you make; sparing the Rachni Queen is indisputably better than killing the Rachni Queen (ally, galactic resources, feel good mentality, etc). The Dark Ritual is being built in the same way: some here don't know if they can trust Morrigan, but that doesn't mean there won't be a right or wrong answer to that question.

Hence why you need a concrete demonstration of a sacrifice which entails giving up something for something. Kaidan lives, Ashley dies. You get the idea. The Dark Ritual allows us to circumvent death and to do that we give up...well, who the hell knows? It could be something huge, something small, or nothing at all.  
 
Again, easy ways to incorproate this into the narrative. Riordan, for one: give him more information on the nature of the Archdemon to argue with Morrigan over. Hell, even follow the example set by the Harrowing in the beginning of the Mage Origin where a Pride Demon appears to shake the player's success in the ceremony. Do something similar with the God Child. Or (the more obvious solution)...make the Dark Ritual.....Dark. Instead of just a make-out session with Morrigan, follow George R.R. Martin's depiction of Melisandre. In other words: give something concrete for the player to lach onto in formulating a judgment that they may come to regret this later.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 11 août 2012 - 02:39 .


#552
Essalor

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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Essalor wrote...

You are being unfair. We had a DA expansion which followed the story original and we had DA2 which was set in another city. So we have one game which is set in a different city and still has crossovers with the characters from Origins. Not to say that game is not what I'm discussing as it was clearly rushed in a year and a half to retail. However one might notice that templar vs mage conflict in Kirkwall was not only a dominant theme throughout DA2 but was a dominant theme through the whole series.


And yet, look at the general reaction which ME3 has received for its perceived failure in implementing choices and consequences. And that was a trilogy where the concept of the import was planned from the start.

So if ME3 couldn't do this adequately, why do we believe that DA:O's sequels are going to, given that the latter is not designed with a branching story structure from previous games, is based more around setting than any particular set of characters, and never pushed the import feature to the same extent Mass Effect did? Add on top of that Bioware's approach so far to utilizing the import feature, Witch Hunt's approach to the God Child, and the actual difficulty associated with building a story around such a plot point (since it's only one option in DA:O which leaves unresolved issues), and you're pushing for a very difficult argument, that Bioware is going to implement the God Child to any satisfying extent.

As on now there's no evidence that DA3 will not feature any returns from the original. 


Arguments from ignorance are not valid. Lack of proof is not itself proof.

Actually not to follow up on that child would be a big mistake... It's true that it wasn't explained well in Origins what happens to him, but the material is glimmering with potential. 


Exactly. Potential. That's the source of your misunderstanding. The structure of the Dark Ritual is such that we don't know if there is a sacrifice. It's built in the same style as the Rachni Queen: do you trust this person enough to let her go? And notice how the Rachni Queen scenario doesn't actually incorporate a sacrifice for which choice you make; sparing the Rachni Queen is indisputably better than killing the Rachni Queen (ally, galactic resources, feel good mentality, etc). The Dark Ritual is being built in the same way: some here don't know if they can trust Morrigan, but that doesn't mean there won't be a right or wrong answer to that question.

Hence why you need a concrete demonstration of a sacrifice which entails giving up something for something. Kaidan lives, Ashley dies. You get the idea. The Dark Ritual allows us to circumvent death and to do that we give up...well, who the hell knows? It could be something huge, something small, or nothing at all.  
 
Again, easy ways to incorproate this into the narrative. Riordan, for one: give him more information on the nature of the Archdemon to argue with Morrigan over. Hell, even follow the example set by the Harrowing in the beginning of the Mage Origin where a Pride Demon appears to shake the player's success in the ceremony. Do something similar with the God Child. Or (the more obvious solution)...make the Dark Ritual.....Dark. Instead of just a make-out session with Morrigan, follow George R.R. Martin's depiction of Melisandre. In other words: give something concrete for the player to lach onto in formulating a judgment that they may come to regret this later.



I gave it a thought and even if there's no explanation given, I still think the Dark Ritual is not the save all solution and a cop out. The fact that you don't get immediate consequences doesn't negate the fact that there might be later. So you're trading a short-term securty for a later unknown risk. You know what they say about companies that care about short term? If the child was definitely evil it'd negate the doubt.

 You can't compare it to the Rachni queen because the choice you make for the ritual has only consequences for yourself and nobody else. It's a selfish thing from a character standpoint. The Rachni Queen is another life affirming theme from Mass Effect: trust, allies, belief. There's no sacri

For DA3, all I'm saying that there's no proof in either case, but in DA2 the change of setting didn't bring in the change in core conflicts or sudden narrative shifts. We still had darkspawn, mages vs templars, basically thematic continuity. And the main conflict(s) was(were) visible from the get-go since we've arrive in Kirkwall, not introduced after everything else is resolved and now there's a sudden need for an extra 5-minute arc.

It's not true to say that in ME3 choices and consequences were poorly implemented. Nobody is being that absolute. The problem with ME3 is on the contrary that so many choices have been resolved with real consequences(and manly tears in few cases even if we knew we were doing the right thing) that the end ones seem so much weaker in comparison and they are the ones that close the main story arc for the whole trilogy.

By the end of ME3 everything is resolved. All the galaxy is united or broken by you and your actions for better and for worse. It's time to beat the reapers( or die maybe if you really ****ed up) and contemplate the story that you've created. Instead you end up shaking up the whole galaxy once again in many cases negating the previous choices. No wonder so many people don't feel closure. It's not even about the fate of the crew/Shepard it's about the fact that the universe changes in the last 5 minutes and all the accumulated payoff that you could remember is negated in one way or another.

#553
Essalor

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txgoldrush wrote...

Essalor wrote...


Ye, well only in that weird green utopia they do. When you're given no choice but to die, it's pretty dark in my book. Dark Ritual is not a cop out, and if you missed the posts explaining that, then read up. Short version: there are things at stake which you might value more than your life.

You always eager to skip on things that don't please you so that you can bring in more nitpicks to prove your shoddy theory which is easily disproven by simple logic. 

The endings don't make logical sense. They don't fit the narrative, the character of Shepard, they don't reflect in-game choices to the extent of DA:O or anything that was promised, and even other choices made in ME3 to resolve other conflicts. They induce plotholes and have shoddy writing. Ergo they suck. 


However the endings portrayal is far from dark...face it, the problem is YOU not the game.

"You always eager to skip on things that don't please you so that you can bring in more nitpicks to prove your shoddy theory which is easily disproven by simple logic. "

No thats you....you are ignoring things that you don't want to admit. The main theme of ME3 is victory through sacrifice.....hell Hudson said so when he was asked to describe ME3. Therefore the main protagonist will most likely die.

Yes, the endings do make logical sense, you don't get it. Simply put, the ending covers themes that you just didn't attach to, but were clearly in the game and the series.

Sorry while DAO may show consquences in the form of endgame mobs on your side and ending cards, they lack true consquence (outside one example). Its as shallow as any Bioware game, and in fact, if I put save import into account, ME3 actually does choice and consquence better. Nevermind the choices in ME3 are deeper in emotional complexity and moral complexity, than DAO's were.


I don't ignore the main theme of ME3 I just don't see why is there a need for one. I only point out that it's not a main theme of the trilogy and not the only theme in ME3. Conflict through sacrifice is resolved when we sacrifice Mordin or maybe Legion for what we perceive as greater good. Or we save them.

In all cases those themes are already resolved, twice. All themes are resolved by the end. Bringing it again in the very end, especially with the reasons for Shepards sacrifice being so poor is almost tautological. And you confuse thematical and logical sense. Logical is when the ending is supported by the story and universe and when the narrative flows naturally. The endings artificially introduce some kind of extra non-needed thematical arc but annihilate lore, interrupt the flow and defy logic. Sounds like a bad decision.

#554
Iakus

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txgoldrush wrote...


I can use the same logic....ME3 is about stopping the Reapers at any cost and if the hero has to sacrifice himself so be it. Face it,ME3 is about SACRIFICE. The notion that the player may not be able to save himself works.


"May not" is one thing.  "can not" is something completely different.

How many copies do you think ME3 would hav emoved if it had been widely known from the start that Shepqard couldn't survive?

Modifié par iakus, 11 août 2012 - 06:17 .


#555
1Nosphorus1

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iakus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


I can use the same logic....ME3 is about stopping the Reapers at any cost and if the hero has to sacrifice himself so be it. Face it,ME3 is about SACRIFICE. The notion that the player may not be able to save himself works.


"May not" is one thing.  "can not" is something completely different.

How many copies do you think ME3 would hav emoved if it had been widely known from the start that Shepqard couldn't survive?


That and the fact that the most popular ending voted by players would've been a flawless victory.

Sacrifice has been THE video game ending for the past 4 years, after Red Dead Redemption I got tired of it.

#556
Killdren88

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Why couldn't; the ME guys take a page from DA. At least we were given a choice on how we wanted it to end

#557
funfryfrenzy

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ahaha... "Choice" we have dismissed that claim..

Who said your choice?

/sarcasm

#558
Killdren88

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Sad, but true...