557 réponses à ce sujet

[Peranor]

txgoldrush wrote...

anorling wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Very few games deal with the the multiple deaths of entire planets. further more few games gives us such a desperate hopeless look at it through the eyes of the both the refugees and the soldiers

Yep...THIS

Bioware has matured in its storytelling and fans are too dumb to see it.

Nevermind that unlike DAO where the theme of sacrifice is brought in at the last minute....ME3 revolves around sacrifice.

What? You didn't see that the theme of sacrifice was there from the start in DAO? It's heavily foreshadowed. Are you really so dumb you can't see that?

Duncan's death isn't sacrifice, he was betrayed.

And no, its not foreshadowed....other than the elf quest, there is no real sacrifiice.

Oh yes it is. It's just you who isn't mature enough to understand it. Face it. You're just  to  dumb. You  just  don't  understand. 

[txgoldrush]

[quote]BatmanPWNS wrote...

[quote]MerchantGOL wrote...


that means you bought his BS, i feel bad for you

[/quote]
[/quote]

Eh, a pyramid of quotes!

You mean I didn't just go with the character assassination like you did. I feel bad for you.

[/quote]

Please, he has the same motives and goals as he did in ME2 and the books. Nothing is different other than the fact that Shepard sees that he is indoctrinated, because you know, using the same "The Reapers don't kill everyone" line that Saren and Dr. Kenson did.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 08 août 2012 - 02:48 .

[txgoldrush]

anorling wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

anorling wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Very few games deal with the the multiple deaths of entire planets. further more few games gives us such a desperate hopeless look at it through the eyes of the both the refugees and the soldiers

Yep...THIS

Bioware has matured in its storytelling and fans are too dumb to see it.

Nevermind that unlike DAO where the theme of sacrifice is brought in at the last minute....ME3 revolves around sacrifice.

What? You didn't see that the theme of sacrifice was there from the start in DAO? It's heavily foreshadowed. Are you really so dumb you can't see that?

Duncan's death isn't sacrifice, he was betrayed.

And no, its not foreshadowed....other than the elf quest, there is no real sacrifiice.

Oh yes it is. It's just you who isn't mature enough to understand it. Face it. You're just  to  dumb. You  just  don't  understand. 

Please, where is it foreshadowed? And not just be a random sacrifice like the elven leader is.

Face it DAO is just a run of the mill power fantasy story.

Nevermind Morrigan destroys the concept of the theme through her contrived easy way out choice.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 08 août 2012 - 02:52 .

[MerchantGOL]

anorling wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

anorling wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Very few games deal with the the multiple deaths of entire planets. further more few games gives us such a desperate hopeless look at it through the eyes of the both the refugees and the soldiers

Yep...THIS

Bioware has matured in its storytelling and fans are too dumb to see it.

Nevermind that unlike DAO where the theme of sacrifice is brought in at the last minute....ME3 revolves around sacrifice.

What? You didn't see that the theme of sacrifice was there from the start in DAO? It's heavily foreshadowed. Are you really so dumb you can't see that?

Duncan's death isn't sacrifice, he was betrayed.

And no, its not foreshadowed....other than the elf quest, there is no real sacrifiice.

Oh yes it is. It's just you who isn't mature enough to understand it. Face it. You're just  to  dumb. You  just  don't  understand. 

Ad Hominems are a Sign of Desperation.

[MerchantGOL]

[quote]BatmanPWNS wrote...

[quote]MerchantGOL wrote...


that means you bought his BS, i feel bad for you

[/quote]
[/quote]

Eh, a pyramid of quotes!

You mean I didn't just go with the character assassination like you did. I feel bad for you.

[/quote] Hee was always a manipltive child killing bastard, this is clear in the books, and Clear in the games


They assinated a pope for godsakes

You trusted a Snake and got bit plain and simple

[Iakus]

txgoldrush wrote...

Duncan's death isn't sacrifice, he was betrayed.

And no, its not foreshadowed....other than the elf quest, there is no real sacrifiice.

Join us, brothers and sisters. Join us in the shadows where we stand vigilant. Join us as we carry the duty that can not be forsworn. And should you perish, know that your sacrifice will not be forgotten. And that one day we shall join you."

Nope.  Not Foreshadowed.  At.  All.

:lol:

[Essalor]

txgoldrush wrote...

Essalor wrote...

DA:O was a cliche story, and the darkspawn weren't exactly a very compelling villain because they were bland mix of orcs and trolls.

However, DA:O is consistent and true in its vision. You can say that some choices are blunt or cop-out but they are in-line with the story arc and universe, characters and they do influence the ending. Yes DA:O endings were texts, in ME3 we have 3 coloured videos with no explanation. And we get slides in extended edition. That's hardly "matured",

Yes, Bioware has matured because ME grips you, and it's a much more intricate and emotional universe than DA:O. But by flipping the narrative in the endings, and making a controversy out of it is not a sign of maturity. I agree that the endings aren't cliche, but the endings for ME1 and ME2 are not exaclty inventive either, nor bewildering, nor philosophical much and they worked. Moreover they gave you much more control over the outcome.
There's nothing wrong with experimenting when it fits the franchise.
ME3 ending doesn't fit the 90 hours before it, makes fun of codex entries and previous lore. There's nothing mature in abandoning lucid storyline for metaphysical concepts.

Sorry but a villian revealed to be a created AI turning against his own creators in the name of the creator/created conflict DOES fit the entire series. Why?

Because the entire series is about the conflicts between the creators and the created, it thefroe makes sense that the Reapers fit this theme too. And I am not talking about organics and synthetics...but creators and the created in general.

It doesn't fit in stylistically. The main villain is revealed out of the blue in the last 10 minutes after we've dealt with most choices and offers 3 new ones. He has no connection to the universe, lives in an extremely improbable location and looks like a dead child for no logical reason. Throughout the whole franchize the villain was revealed gradually and far in advance. (Geth -> Saren -> Saren's ship -> Reapers; Collectors-> Protheans -> Harbringer). 

It doesn't fit narratively. By explaining reapers we remove their mysteriousness. We go from  "You can't understand us" in ME to "Oh just vessels to gather old organic civilizations that I've created".  That's why I won't probably be bying the Leviathan DLC. They'll probably go into the details of Reaper Mass Effect core functioning. In this case less is more. Fear of the unknown > rational fear (e.g. death, shadow, dark  etc.)

It doesn't give enough choices. Don't tell me the whole game is a big send-off. It's like saying the whole Return of the King is a big send off to LoTR, yet it also has kings and friends dying and has a time for a very long epilogue. The end choices are not constrained by any in-game action. All your choices in most cases revolve around 20-50 points to your army which you can get by scanning planets all the same... and everyone you save joins the Crucible project, be it Geth, Asari, Rachni, or even you ME2 companions. 

In ME2 you could basically hand pick people to die in the final mission. Most probably wanted everyone to survive and guess what: you could do that. You could also go and wipe the whole crew and Shepard. 

And mostly they just screw up the universe. I saw enough of "It fits the underlying theme of (insert: cycles, sacrifice, creators vs created here)." and "It's too deep for you to understand." arguments. You can fit whatever meaning you want, but at first you have to fit into the existing lore and narrative not vice versa.

I'm not going to go into detail how the endings screw up the narrative, suffice to say that the best ending (I infer that because it's inaccessible if you don't have an army large enough) is Synthesis that negates all your in-game choices, alters the whole universe and uses unexplained magic. And that's just one. Thanks for those detailed codex entries! I think you missed a spot though!

Should I say how narratively DA:O and ME1, ME2, KotoR make sense? 

[Essalor]

The Grey Wardens are sterile, die young and in the end have to go underground to fight endless hordes of enemies until they die themselves. It's always told that they sacrifice their lives to fight the Darkspawn almost in plain text. So the ending reveal is not shocking thematically, it;s more of a ... if not now then soon kind of thing.

[txgoldrush]

Essalor wrote...

The Grey Wardens are sterile, die young and in the end have to go underground to fight endless hordes of enemies until they die themselves. It's always told that they sacrifice their lives to fight the Darkspawn almost in plain text. So the ending reveal is not shocking thematically, it;s more of a ... if not now then soon kind of thing.

However here is what DAO failed to do...go into more detail and have the story revolve around the theme.

Therefore its shallow.

[txgoldrush]

Essalor wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Essalor wrote...

DA:O was a cliche story, and the darkspawn weren't exactly a very compelling villain because they were bland mix of orcs and trolls.

However, DA:O is consistent and true in its vision. You can say that some choices are blunt or cop-out but they are in-line with the story arc and universe, characters and they do influence the ending. Yes DA:O endings were texts, in ME3 we have 3 coloured videos with no explanation. And we get slides in extended edition. That's hardly "matured",

Yes, Bioware has matured because ME grips you, and it's a much more intricate and emotional universe than DA:O. But by flipping the narrative in the endings, and making a controversy out of it is not a sign of maturity. I agree that the endings aren't cliche, but the endings for ME1 and ME2 are not exaclty inventive either, nor bewildering, nor philosophical much and they worked. Moreover they gave you much more control over the outcome.
There's nothing wrong with experimenting when it fits the franchise.
ME3 ending doesn't fit the 90 hours before it, makes fun of codex entries and previous lore. There's nothing mature in abandoning lucid storyline for metaphysical concepts.

Sorry but a villian revealed to be a created AI turning against his own creators in the name of the creator/created conflict DOES fit the entire series. Why?

Because the entire series is about the conflicts between the creators and the created, it thefroe makes sense that the Reapers fit this theme too. And I am not talking about organics and synthetics...but creators and the created in general.

It doesn't fit in stylistically. The main villain is revealed out of the blue in the last 10 minutes after we've dealt with most choices and offers 3 new ones. He has no connection to the universe, lives in an extremely improbable location and looks like a dead child for no logical reason. Throughout the whole franchize the villain was revealed gradually and far in advance. (Geth -> Saren -> Saren's ship -> Reapers; Collectors-> Protheans -> Harbringer). 

It doesn't fit narratively. By explaining reapers we remove their mysteriousness. We go from  "You can't understand us" in ME to "Oh just vessels to gather old organic civilizations that I've created".  That's why I won't probably be bying the Leviathan DLC. They'll probably go into the details of Reaper Mass Effect core functioning. In this case less is more. Fear of the unknown > rational fear (e.g. death, shadow, dark  etc.)

It doesn't give enough choices. Don't tell me the whole game is a big send-off. It's like saying the whole Return of the King is a big send off to LoTR, yet it also has kings and friends dying and has a time for a very long epilogue. The end choices are not constrained by any in-game action. All your choices in most cases revolve around 20-50 points to your army which you can get by scanning planets all the same... and everyone you save joins the Crucible project, be it Geth, Asari, Rachni, or even you ME2 companions. 

In ME2 you could basically hand pick people to die in the final mission. Most probably wanted everyone to survive and guess what: you could do that. You could also go and wipe the whole crew and Shepard. 

And mostly they just screw up the universe. I saw enough of "It fits the underlying theme of (insert: cycles, sacrifice, creators vs created here)." and "It's too deep for you to understand." arguments. You can fit whatever meaning you want, but at first you have to fit into the existing lore and narrative not vice versa.

I'm not going to go into detail how the endings screw up the narrative, suffice to say that the best ending (I infer that because it's inaccessible if you don't have an army large enough) is Synthesis that negates all your in-game choices, alters the whole universe and uses unexplained magic. And that's just one. Thanks for those detailed codex entries! I think you missed a spot though!

Should I say how narratively DA:O and ME1, ME2, KotoR make sense? 

Please...how is the Citadel improbable? Who would then create the Keepers? Sorry, but just because he came in at the last minute doesn't make it bad. Its supposed to be a twist and it WAS foreshadowed on Thessia where Vendetta states that Reapers are only servants to the pattern and his motives are foreshadowed on Rannoch. Its all in the narrative.

Sorry, but the choices fit the theme as well...all three connect to the sacrifice theme nevermind almost all the themes presented in game.

And how is synthesis unexplained...the Catalyst basically explains synthesis.

And please, whats wrong with the choices having a huge impact on the universe. Sorry, but the galaxy changes with the cycle broken, thats far from bad.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 08 août 2012 - 03:42 .

[txgoldrush]

EntropicAngel wrote...

iakus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Duncan's death isn't sacrifice, he was betrayed.

And no, its not foreshadowed....other than the elf quest, there is no real sacrifiice.

Join us, brothers and sisters. Join us in the shadows where we stand vigilant. Join us as we carry the duty that can not be forsworn. And should you perish, know that your sacrifice will not be forgotten. And that one day we shall join you."

Nope.  Not Foreshadowed.  At.  All.

:lol:

Eh...nope. No foreshadowing there.

Are you really saying that "We'll die one day too, cause we're human ya know" is foreshadowing?

This

[Essalor]

txgoldrush wrote...

Essalor wrote...

The Grey Wardens are sterile, die young and in the end have to go underground to fight endless hordes of enemies until they die themselves. It's always told that they sacrifice their lives to fight the Darkspawn almost in plain text. So the ending reveal is not shocking thematically, it;s more of a ... if not now then soon kind of thing.

However here is what DAO failed to do...go into more detail and have the story revolve around the theme.

Therefore its shallow.

The theme of DA:O and ME is choice. Choose YOUR path, make YOUR destiny. DA:O has themes of betrayal, sacrifice, necessary evil and you decide what's good or not. 
ME doesn't have one theme either. It has creator vs created, synthetics vs organics, necessary evil, forgiveness, battle (and win) against impossible odds, humans vs aliens, control over freedom etc. Yet you say that locking on one of those and proclaiming it dominant in the last 5 minutes to the point of altering the whole lore and universe is somehow better and (I hate this meaningless adjective) mature?  

[Iakus]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Are you really saying that "We'll die one day too, cause we're human ya know" is foreshadowing?

It's at least as much forshadowing as Shepard dreaming of a dead kid

More so because, you know, the Calling, the archdemon, "duty that cannot be forsworn" and all...

[The Twilight God]

No, it's not art.

It's a great and satisfying ending to a great game.

[MerchantGOL]

iakus wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Are you really saying that "We'll die one day too, cause we're human ya know" is foreshadowing?

It's at least as much forshadowing as Shepard dreaming of a dead kid

More so because, you know, the Calling, the archdemon, "duty that cannot be forsworn" and all...

Dreaming of the Dead kid wasn't forshadowing, it was merly showing how heavy the wwar weighed on shepard, that kid reperesents every one he couldn't save.

[Iakus]

[quote]MerchantGOL wrote...

[/quote] Dreaming of the Dead kid wasn't forshadowing, it was merly showing how heavy the wwar weighed on shepard, that kid reperesents every one he couldn't save.


[/quote]

Odd, cause I keep hearing how the kid bursting into flame is "blatant" foreshadowing of SHepard's impending death

What does foreshadow Shepard's death that's so obvious that the player can't possibly have a way out of it?

[MerchantGOL]

[quote]iakus wrote...

[quote]MerchantGOL wrote...

[/quote] Dreaming of the Dead kid wasn't forshadowing, it was merly showing how heavy the wwar weighed on shepard, that kid reperesents every one he couldn't save.


[/quote]

Odd, cause I keep hearing how the kid bursting into flame is "blatant" foreshadowing of SHepard's impending death[/quote] dunno who said that. i guess you could claim that thats forshadowing for shepards death,but not for star child

What does foreshadow Shepard's death that's so obvious that the player can't possibly have a way out of it?

well 1 you can get out of it, 2 the refrences to shepard being tired, not wuite knowing what hed do if he didnt have to fight, and how he died befor, is forshadowing to thatm but you may disagree

[Essalor]

txgoldrush wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

iakus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Duncan's death isn't sacrifice, he was betrayed.

And no, its not foreshadowed....other than the elf quest, there is no real sacrifiice.

Join us, brothers and sisters. Join us in the shadows where we stand vigilant. Join us as we carry the duty that can not be forsworn. And should you perish, know that your sacrifice will not be forgotten. And that one day we shall join you."

Nope.  Not Foreshadowed.  At.  All.

:lol:

Eh...nope. No foreshadowing there.

Are you really saying that "We'll die one day too, cause we're human ya know" is foreshadowing?

This

The sacrifice is the ritual itself because most people die during it. You live on borrowed time, having nightmares, sensing darkspawn and sworn an oath to fight them to death. There's no foreshadowing, but certainly gloom and foreboding that it might not end well... nobody was going to reveal how to defeat the final boss in the first hour of the game now, was he?

Everyone seem also to forget that Riordan was still alive and originally proposed to die while slaying the archdemon and the whole ritual was just a backup, and you could unnecessarily breed a demon child and maybe cheat on your LI.  

Here'a tougher one: foreshadow me the Star Child and ME3 endings before the final assault.

[Maker MEDA]

Dragon Age Origin has the story and scope of which can contend with Baldur's Gate, it's awesome.

[Essalor]

Logan Cloud wrote...

Bioware is good at making old stories look new and shiney. None of Bioware's games are particularly original.

So no, I don't agree with the OP. I think it's pretty standard actually.

I think everyone missed my post where I said that art in the title is just a sarcastic comparison to the perceived "art" that are ME3 endings and not a real statement about DA:O game ending. Here's the misleading quote (for which I apologise):

For me, just to imagine such complexity and how well it was resolved, makes the ending of this game an art more so than the forced philosophy of ME. 

I don't think either ending is an art in itself. The whole art debate should be about the whole media that are videogames and not a few select titles. I'll reiterate: both games are art in my book. To justify and ending by "art" is a non-valid argument. A valid argument is to call an ending untrue to the spirit of the franchise and it's lore, the problem that didn't exist in previous titles.

Modifié par Essalor, 08 août 2012 - 04:04 .

[MerchantGOL]

Essalor wrote...


Here'a tougher one: foreshadow me the Star Child and ME3 endings before the final assault.

your gonna have to be more spefiic with the endings, but the reapers are purpously mysterious, but beyong that their is mention of a pattern and some thing manipulating that pattern.