51 réponses à ce sujet

[T0paze]

Sorry, if this has been asked before.

So why do you need to kill Loghain at the Landsmeet , if you don't want him to join you as a Grey Warden? It's a bit bloodthirsty. He does have to anwer for his crimes but that punishment doesn't have to be his death. Why can't you lock him up in a castle somewhere, like Anora, and make him write some books on military strategy (he was a good commander once). Or send him into Eamon's dungeon. Or, if you're particularly benevolent, even allow him to lead some troops into the final battle with the Archdemon, so you'd be able to summon him like the elves, dwarves and others.

It doesn't even seem that he will create any problems, too, unlike Anora. She doesn't want to swear fealty no matter what, but Loghain, once you have bested him in a duel, seems perfectly willing to do that and he sounds quite sincere. In short, I don't think it was a wise decision to limit the player's choices to two options only. Come to think of it, even with Jowan you have more options, and Loghain is a much more important character than Jowan.

Modifié par T0paze, 21 décembre 2009 - 01:44 .

[Skellimancer]

You don't.

[T0paze]

Yeah... anyway. I thought I'd made myself clear in the first sentence, but seems like it's not enough. I'll change the title to include the words 'if you don't want him to be a Grey Warden'.

Modifié par T0paze, 21 décembre 2009 - 12:49 .

[borelocin]

He is a regicide, poisoner, slaver and torturer who killed your mentor and repeatedly tried to kill you.

He is also responsible for thousands of civilians being literally eaten alive by darkspawn because he abandoned them to focus on suppressing dissent amongst the nobles.

Making him a Grey Warden isn't a pardon - he's the magical equivalent of a suicide bomber. He doesn't expect and you don't want him to survive.

Modifié par borelocin, 21 décembre 2009 - 12:50 .

[Skellimancer]

You should be able to duel Anora.



Why would you not wan't Loghain as a grey warden? seems a waste to spare him and lock him up.

[Original182]

Loghain's crimes are too numerous and most of them require that he die the death penalty many times. Leaving the King to die (treason) then pinning the blame on the Grey Wardens (lying), starting civil wars and killing nobles who won't submit to him, sending an apostate to kill Arl Eamon, selling Alienage elves for money, etc.

[rayvioletta]

Loghain is accused of treason, a capital crime. Grey Wardens can use the Rite of Inscription on even convicted criminals, the only other option would be a pardon which would be a political disaster even if Loghain could be trusted not to stab you in the back afterwards

[Skellimancer]

borelocin wrote...

He is a regicide, poisoner, slaver and torturer who killed your mentor and repeatedly tried to kill you.

He is also responsible for thousands of civilians being literally eaten alive by darkspawn because he abandoned them to focus on suppressing dissent amongst the nobles.

Nobody is perfect.

[T0paze]

That's all good and well. However, aside from being a personal opinion, it doesn't explain why there can be another option in the game (and there is - you can make him a Grey Warden. Where there's one, there can also be three or five). And the reason is, well, that's it's just there for roleplaying. Maybe some people actually like Loghain? Or maybe they simply don't want to kill him, but don't want him to accumpany them either. There can be lots of possibilities.

[Cazlee]

To force you into a no-win situation.

[Skellimancer]

He makes a good grey warden, didn't duncan have a very evil past?

[T0paze]

rayvioletta wrote...

Loghain is accused of treason, a capital crime. Grey Wardens can use the Rite of Inscription on even convicted criminals, the only other option would be a pardon which would be a political disaster even if Loghain could be trusted not to stab you in the back afterwards

Nah.

He was accused but he was never tried. That duel is by no means a trial - it's just a way to settle the dispute without unecessary bloodshed. If you want, make sure he gets a fair trial (well, as fair as it can be, given the political nature of these events) before or preferably after you confront the Archdemon. If he's sentenced to death, so be it. That could be another option, actually.

Modifié par T0paze, 21 décembre 2009 - 12:58 .

[Original182]

T0paze wrote...

That's all good and well. However, aside from being a personal opinion, it doesn't explain why there can be another option in the game (and there is - you can make him a Grey Warden. Where there's one, there can also be three or five). And the reason is, well, that's it's just there for roleplaying. Maybe some people actually like Loghain? Or maybe they simply don't want to kill him, but don't want him to accumpany them either. There can be lots of possibilities.

Dude you can't pardon a criminal just coz you like him.
It's not a matter of personal opinion to let him live or not. There are laws and if you break the really heavy ones, you get the death penalty.

The only way out as you've pointed out, is to make him a Grey Warden, because the Right of Conscription can override even sentences.
Edit: That's the only logical reason to allow him to live for people who like him.

Modifié par Original182, 21 décembre 2009 - 01:00 .

[whtnyte-raernst]

Because your in a land that has laws. You options of what you can do with him have to fit within those laws.

[T0paze]

Laws? Could you please list them, and indicate which ones specifically make it necessary that Loghain be executed after the duel at the Landsmeet, provided that he's not accepted into the ranks of the Grey Wardens?

[T0paze]

Original182 wrote...

T0paze wrote...

That's all good and well. However, aside from being a personal opinion, it doesn't explain why there can be another option in the game (and there is - you can make him a Grey Warden. Where there's one, there can also be three or five). And the reason is, well, that's it's just there for roleplaying. Maybe some people actually like Loghain? Or maybe they simply don't want to kill him, but don't want him to accumpany them either. There can be lots of possibilities.

Dude you can't pardon a criminal just coz you like him.
It's not a matter of personal opinion to let him live or not. There are laws and if you break the really heavy ones, you get the death penalty.

The only way out as you've pointed out, is to make him a Grey Warden, because the Right of Conscription can override even sentences.
Edit: That's the only logical reason to allow him to live for people who like him.

What sentences? There was no trial. If you're free to kill Loghain after the duel, you're just as free to let him go. Nobody's forcing you do take either of those actions. It's your sole discretion and responsibility. The duel itself does NOT mean that the loser must be beheaded. It end when one yields, not dies.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Original182 wrote...

Dude you can't pardon a criminal just coz you like him.
It's not a matter of personal opinion to let him live or not. There are laws and if you break the really heavy ones, you get the death penalty.

The only way out as you've pointed out, is to make him a Grey Warden, because the Right of Conscription can override even sentences.
Edit: That's the only logical reason to allow him to live for people who like him.

Actually, your reasoning as to why you are pardoning him, could actually be because you like him and want to show him mercy.

if you have the power, which is what it seems like from that particular scene and others. The Right of Conscription would only need be applied if he refused but you still wanted him to join (like a fair number of the origin story endings), where it is a simple case of, either you join us under the rights of conscription or your death sentence continues.

The fact is considering none of the nobles seemed to be outraged when you do execute him, it seems that the verdict was a given.

Thus it is either he joins the wardens or dies.

[Original182]

T0paze wrote...
What sentences? There was no trial. If you're free to kill Loghain after the duel, you're just as free to let him go. Nobody's forcing you do take either of those actions. It's your sole discretion and responsibility. The duel itself does NOT mean that the loser must be beheaded. It end when one yields, not dies.

Ok so let me understand you.

You want the scenario where you win the duel, but you don't want him to be a Grey Warden, and you want everyone to let Loghain be free.

Even a Grey Warden like you is not above the law. Even if you say "I wish to let Loghain live", the justice system will still put Loghain on trial and make him face the death penalty for his crimes, and he would be executed anyway. The duel was only to determine who should be the next ruler. It doesn't give you the power to pardon Loghain's crimes.

And I'm not sure if the duel is till someone yields. I think it's to the death, because if you lose to Loghain, you're dead and it's game over.

[T0paze]

This cannot possibly be so.



They simply didn't have time to set up a mock trial let alone a fair one. That entire scene is continuous.

[Baalzie]

WHi is there only one option when You get attacked by non-darkspawn? Why can't I choose to spare them aswell? I meanprisoners are ofrten better than corpses...

But only Zhev gets that option... Tsssk...



And who says You even GET a trial at all in Ferelden if accused of treason? Might be up to the King outright! Like Alistair *and Anora as queen* proves in the exact same scene You discuss here! Alistair wanna be King to execute Loggie, and Anore orders Alistair offed...So the "trial" option is out by default...

[Solo80]

Wow... Someone REALLY don't read the stickies on this forum.

[T0paze]

Original182 wrote...

T0paze wrote...
What sentences? There was no trial. If you're free to kill Loghain after the duel, you're just as free to let him go. Nobody's forcing you do take either of those actions. It's your sole discretion and responsibility. The duel itself does NOT mean that the loser must be beheaded. It end when one yields, not dies.

Ok so let me understand you.

You want the scenario where you win the duel, but you don't want him to be a Grey Warden, and you want everyone to let Loghain be free.

Even a Grey Warden like you is not above the law. Even if you say "I wish to let Loghain live", the justice system will still put Loghain on trial and make him face the death penalty for his crimes, and he would be executed anyway. The duel was only to determine who should be the next ruler. It doesn't give you the power to pardon Loghain's crimes.

And I'm not sure if the duel is till someone yields. I think it's to the death, because if you lose to Loghain, you're dead and it's game over.

Well, my point is that if you can kill him without a trial you can also pardon him without a trial. Or lock him up in a castle without a trial. However, if you're not free to do whatever you want, then, by all means, hand him over to the guards and let him have a fair trial. But the problem is, you don't even get that option.

As for the duel, no. It's specifically mentioned that the duel ends when one of the oponents yields. By Bann Alfstanna, I think. At least that the tradition.

[T0paze]

Solo80 wrote...

Wow... Someone REALLY don't read the stickies on this forum.

Ah, right...

Hmm, can you suggest another title?

[The Angry One]

T0paze wrote...

He was accused but he was never tried. That duel is by no means a trial - it's just a way to settle the dispute without unecessary bloodshed. If you want, make sure he gets a fair trial (well, as fair as it can be, given the political nature of these events) before or preferably after you confront the Archdemon. If he's sentenced to death, so be it. That could be another option, actually.

This is a medieval era, due process is for the birds. Justice comes at the point of a sword and he's at your mercy, and YOU above all know he's guilty.

[T0paze]

Baalzie wrote...

WHi is there only one option when You get attacked by non-darkspawn? Why can't I choose to spare them aswell? I meanprisoners are ofrten better than corpses...
But only Zhev gets that option... Tsssk...

And who says You even GET a trial at all in Ferelden if accused of treason? Might be up to the King outright! Like Alistair *and Anora as queen* proves in the exact same scene You discuss here! Alistair wanna be King to execute Loggie, and Anore orders Alistair offed...So the "trial" option is out by default...

But that's my point. If you don't have to have Loghain tried, you can do what you want. If you can do what you want, you can also release him or lock him up somewhere. Instead, you're only given two options: to kill him or to recruit him.