51 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Yes let's keep the regicidal maniac locked up somewhere, where he can scheme and plot your downfall.

Modifié par The Angry One, 21 décembre 2009 - 01:25 .

[T0paze]

The Angry One wrote...

T0paze wrote...

He was accused but he was never tried. That duel is by no means a trial - it's just a way to settle the dispute without unecessary bloodshed. If you want, make sure he gets a fair trial (well, as fair as it can be, given the political nature of these events) before or preferably after you confront the Archdemon. If he's sentenced to death, so be it. That could be another option, actually.

This is a medieval era, due process is for the birds. Justice comes at the point of a sword and he's at your mercy, and YOU above all know he's guilty.

Sure, he is. That's what I'm talking about. Your next point, however, is invalid. Some people may actually want to show him that mercy. Some may not want to kill him, but do not want to conscript him either. There can be lots of opinions and lots of choices. If Bioware offered at least a few, that coud be adequate. Instead, they offer 2! As I said, even Jowan gets to enjoy greater variety.

Your (or my) opinion or game experience is neither better nor worse that anyone else's. If you think that Loghain shoud die - kill him, by all means. Some people may not think so, and it would be only natural if Bioware offered more choices.

Modifié par T0paze, 21 décembre 2009 - 01:28 .

[Original182]

T0paze wrote...

Well, my point is that if you can kill him without a trial you can also pardon him without a trial. Or lock him up in a castle without a trial. However, if you're not free to do whatever you want, then, by all means, hand him over to the guards and let him have a fair trial. But the problem is, you don't even get that option.

Ok, I think I understand you. You want to option to show Loghain mercy, and leave his fate to the justice system, much like how you can leave Jowan's fate to the circle of magi. If the law executes Loghain, so be it, but you don't want to be the one to personally execute him.

Is that the option you want? You want an option to show some [temporary] compassion and mercy?

[The Angry One]

And why on earth would you show a traitorous war criminal any more mercy than conscripting him? At least that way you now have him under some sort of accountability.

[T0paze]

Original182 wrote...

T0paze wrote...

Well, my point is that if you can kill him without a trial you can also pardon him without a trial. Or lock him up in a castle without a trial. However, if you're not free to do whatever you want, then, by all means, hand him over to the guards and let him have a fair trial. But the problem is, you don't even get that option.

Ok, I think I understand you. You want to option to show Loghain mercy, and leave his fate to the justice system, much like how you can leave Jowan's fate to the circle of magi. If the law executes Loghain, so be it, but you don't want to be the one to personally execute him.

Is that the option you want? You want an option to show some [temporary] compassion and mercy?

Yes, that could be a good option, actually, However, what I want, first and foremost, is more choices. I mean, given Loghain's importance in the story, Bioware could certainly come up with a greater variety of options to suit the preferences of different players, especially considering the fact that they are not always so parsimonious. Much less important game encounters often offer the player three or even more choices, so why is this one so limited?

Modifié par T0paze, 21 décembre 2009 - 01:35 .

[CondeDrako]

Really there are 3 "options", you can make him a grey warden, or kill him.

If you kill him in the mission log you can get 2 diferent annotations:
if you kill him he is executed with honor (dont know exact word in english)
if Alistair duels him he inmediatelly kills loghain and the log says that he is killed without honor

Modifié par CondeDrako, 21 décembre 2009 - 01:45 .

[Original182]

T0paze wrote...
Yes, that could be a good option, actually, However, what I want, first and foremost, is more choices. I mean, given Loghain's importance in the story, Bioware could certainly come up with a greater variety of options to suit the preferences of different players, especially considering the fact that they are not always so parsimonious. Much less important game encounters often offer the player three or even more choices, so why is this one so limited?

Well you may have partly answered your own question. That's just the way the writers want it to be. They wrote Loghain to be so paranoid that he became a tyrant, and there really are only 2 options for the severity of his crimes. Kill him, or let him live by overriding the death sentence using the Right of Conscription.

Asking for an option to let Loghain live is almost like asking for an option to team with the Archdemon to rule the world. It's just.... not the story the writers want it to be. It may sound cool, but it's not realistic.

[T0paze]

That's not really three choices, it's just two - to kill him right there or to conscript him.

[T0paze]

Original182 wrote...

T0paze wrote...
Yes, that could be a good option, actually, However, what I want, first and foremost, is more choices. I mean, given Loghain's importance in the story, Bioware could certainly come up with a greater variety of options to suit the preferences of different players, especially considering the fact that they are not always so parsimonious. Much less important game encounters often offer the player three or even more choices, so why is this one so limited?

Well you may have partly answered your own question. That's just the way the writers want it to be. They wrote Loghain to be so paranoid that he became a tyrant, and there really are only 2 options for the severity of his crimes. Kill him, or let him live by overriding the death sentence using the Right of Conscription.

Asking for an option to let Loghain live is almost like asking for an option to team with the Archdemon to rule the world. It's just.... not the story the writers want it to be. It may sound cool, but it's not realistic.

Who says that you personally have to let him go? No one. Every player is entitled to their opinions. However, some may actually want to let him go. After all, people do recruit Sten, although he butchered an entire family with children. Also,  having more choices doesn't mean that the number of choices must be 3 and the third choice  has to involve releasing Loghain. Make him face a fair trial. Or lock him up in a castle or Eamon's dungeon. Or perhaps the developers could come up with something else. You may think it's would be unrealistic to recruit Loghain and some people may think that recruiting Zevran is hardly wiser - he is, after all, an assassin sent to kill you, no matter what he says. To put it short, I'm talking about different opinions and choices. With Loghain, however, you have just two, which is simply inadequate, given the importance of that encounter.

As for the death sentence, I told about that before. There was no death sentence. The cake... sorry, death sentence is a lie. It doesn't exist.

Modifié par T0paze, 21 décembre 2009 - 02:01 .

[Spazmodian]

I don't know why any one is talking about trials or fairness at all. When you put Anora on the throne she has Alistair executed and no one cares. This isn't a democracy there is no judicial system that can counter the decision of the monarch besides the nobles acting directly against them, which would be the same thing Loghain already did.





Besides all of that, for those who want him to burn in a fiery hell forever, what better punishment for him than to banish him and drop him off in Orlais and let some of their more affluent know who he is.

[mousestalker]

Spazmodian wrote...

I don't know why any one is talking about trials or fairness at all. When you put Anora on the throne she has Alistair executed and no one cares. This isn't a democracy there is no judicial system that can counter the decision of the monarch besides the nobles acting directly against them, which would be the same thing Loghain already did.


Besides all of that, for those who want him to burn in a fiery hell forever, what better punishment for him than to banish him and drop him off in Orlais and let some of their more affluent know who he is.

Well you could always let Lelianna pick out a velvet dress and some pretty shoes for him first....

[Amenirdis]

I have to agree with T0paze here. I, too, would have liked at least one other option for Loghain: lock him up in the dungeon. I felt a bit dissatisfied with only those two choices, but alas, that's how it is now.

[Thiefy]

I think the simple answer is that there was no point in sparing him only to kill him later on (besides being sacrificed to the archdemon).



What difference does it make really? During the landsmeet people already know of his crimes through rumors - abandoning the king, attempted poison of Arl Eamon through the use of a malefecar, ignoring the blight and inciting a civil war. On top of that you show more proof of his other crimes - the slavery, the torture, his refusal to accept the last blood heir of the previous king. Everyone knows these things now and his only defense is "for Fereldan". Afterwards he will be put to death regardless, so why not do it now?



"I want it to be an option," doesn't necessarily mean it SHOULD be an option. There's no point in having a trail since the landsmeet techinically serves as one. Yes the point of it is to choose a ruler, but you cannot do that without first dealing with Loghain.

[Mnemnosyne]

All things considered the most reasonable 'third option' would be 'Let whoever becomes ruler decide.' Because really, that seems like it's a decision that should be up to the King/Queen, not up to Random_Grey_Warden_001.

Obviously Alistair would kill him and Anora would let him live with some sort of punishment (she knows that politically, she'd have to make sure there's some pretty serious punishment, she wouldn't just let him go even if she wanted to) but it would be a decision made by the King or Queen of Ferelden.

Frankly, killing Loghain yourself outside of the duel (after he's yielded) seems bizarrely out of place. I found it very odd that the entire Landsmeet has no problem with you murdering him after he has yielded to you in the duel. And let's not mince words - you (or Alistair) are murdering him if you kill him, because you, a Grey Warden, have no legal authority to decide his punishment. As a Teyrn, as far as I can tell, only the King or Queen should have the authority to decide his punishment. The fact that you can choose who becomes King or Queen does not logically give you the right to exercise any of the powers of the monarch before you make that decision.

[Bibdy]

Because like even the most well-written stories of all times, there are some logical flaws that manifest themselves, in order to make the story dramatic. Throwing Loghain in the dungeon is no better to the story than lopping his head off on the spot. You could do it, but who cares? It would be essentially the same outcome to the game's story (even at the end of the game, you'd probably just execute him to keep a bargain with Alistair). So, might as well make a spectacle of it to make the game more dramatic.



No story is immune to this. You tend to need to turn the logic circuits in your brain down a few notches in order to enjoy a good story.

[menasure]

i'd like to side with loghain out of rational reasons: he has his armies, i've mine ... let's kick some darkspawn butt without Alistair whining or Anora double-crossing everyone.

in an other scenario i would have liked to have stormed the capital and/or castle with my armies to conquer the throne myself. sure it's a gamble and it makes little sense to do so with darkspawn luring around the corner but why should only loghain have the right to do stupid things? just call it the messy option which possibly will cost you with a defeat against the darkspawn ... loose armies and support from nobles with armies ... seems bad but hey a virtual world should open more possibilities than real life and they should not have given you those werewolves armies if you can not use them .

one other very interesting option: kill Anora before she can even enter the landsmeet. i know she deserves it lol.

as for the trial part: loghain had his medieval trial: a trial by ordeal. God supposedly determined who was right by letting one of the champions win.
the only part which can be called questionable is that you might as well have killed him in a brawl before that and that loghain survived the duel at first, only to be executed seemingly without a trial a few moments later. this all depends on the options like they were played of course.

Modifié par menasure, 21 décembre 2009 - 08:03 .

[borelocin]

T0paze wrote...

Original182 wrote...

T0paze wrote...

That's all good and well. However, aside from being a personal opinion, it doesn't explain why there can be another option in the game (and there is - you can make him a Grey Warden. Where there's one, there can also be three or five). And the reason is, well, that's it's just there for roleplaying. Maybe some people actually like Loghain? Or maybe they simply don't want to kill him, but don't want him to accumpany them either. There can be lots of possibilities.

Dude you can't pardon a criminal just coz you like him.
It's not a matter of personal opinion to let him live or not. There are laws and if you break the really heavy ones, you get the death penalty.

The only way out as you've pointed out, is to make him a Grey Warden, because the Right of Conscription can override even sentences.
Edit: That's the only logical reason to allow him to live for people who like him.

What sentences? There was no trial. If you're free to kill Loghain after the duel, you're just as free to let him go. Nobody's forcing you do take either of those actions. It's your sole discretion and responsibility. The duel itself does NOT mean that the loser must be beheaded. It end when one yields, not dies.

Actually there were two trials - the vote in the Landsmeet then a Trial by Combat. He lost both and was sentence to death for his crimes.

The Grey Wardens can countermand a death sentence - but only by Conscription. Being made to drink darkspawn blood and slowly go bat**** or get eaten in the deep roads isn't really a pardon

[T0paze]

borelocin wrote...

T0paze wrote...

Original182 wrote...

T0paze wrote...

That's all good and well. However, aside from being a personal opinion, it doesn't explain why there can be another option in the game (and there is - you can make him a Grey Warden. Where there's one, there can also be three or five). And the reason is, well, that's it's just there for roleplaying. Maybe some people actually like Loghain? Or maybe they simply don't want to kill him, but don't want him to accumpany them either. There can be lots of possibilities.

Dude you can't pardon a criminal just coz you like him.
It's not a matter of personal opinion to let him live or not. There are laws and if you break the really heavy ones, you get the death penalty.

The only way out as you've pointed out, is to make him a Grey Warden, because the Right of Conscription can override even sentences.
Edit: That's the only logical reason to allow him to live for people who like him.

What sentences? There was no trial. If you're free to kill Loghain after the duel, you're just as free to let him go. Nobody's forcing you do take either of those actions. It's your sole discretion and responsibility. The duel itself does NOT mean that the loser must be beheaded. It end when one yields, not dies.

Actually there were two trials - the vote in the Landsmeet then a Trial by Combat. He lost both and was sentence to death for his crimes.

The Grey Wardens can countermand a death sentence - but only by Conscription. Being made to drink darkspawn blood and slowly go bat**** or get eaten in the deep roads isn't really a pardon

Nah, there were none. The vote is there to determine who is to lead Ferelden. It was convened to examine Alistair's claims to the throne, originally supported by Arl Eamon. The banns are not there to try Loghain, they are gathered to decide on who will rule. The duel serves the same purpose, since it's essentialy an extension of the vote. It's by no means an official trial. The word 'trial' (let alone Trial by Combat - where did that definition come from?) is not even used there, which is no surprise, because what happens at the Landsmeet doesn't even remotely resemble court proceedings.

Modifié par T0paze, 21 décembre 2009 - 09:54 .

[The Angry One]

I still don't get where you get this idea that Loghain deserves an official trial at all.

He's not only a regicidal, treasonous war criminal, he's a regicidal treasonous war criminal who *loses*.



Losers get nothing, sorry. Especially not losers who are *guilty*.

[andybuiadh]

The Angry One wrote...

I still don't get where you get this idea that Loghain deserves an official trial at all.
He's not only a regicidal, treasonous war criminal, he's a regicidal treasonous war criminal who *loses*.

Losers get nothing, sorry. Especially not losers who are *guilty*.

But nice guys finish last, and ol' Loggy is no nice guy.

Explain your way out of that one!

[The Angry One]

andybuiadh wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I still don't get where you get this idea that Loghain deserves an official trial at all.
He's not only a regicidal, treasonous war criminal, he's a regicidal treasonous war criminal who *loses*.

Losers get nothing, sorry. Especially not losers who are *guilty*.

But nice guys finish last, and ol' Loggy is no nice guy.

Explain your way out of that one!

He's nice to dogs.

[andybuiadh]

The Angry One wrote...

andybuiadh wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I still don't get where you get this idea that Loghain deserves an official trial at all.
He's not only a regicidal, treasonous war criminal, he's a regicidal treasonous war criminal who *loses*.

Losers get nothing, sorry. Especially not losers who are *guilty*.

But nice guys finish last, and ol' Loggy is no nice guy.

Explain your way out of that one!

He's nice to dogs.

I.. ah...  .... uhh...

You win this round.

But I'm watching you.

[lv12medic]

The Angry One wrote...

He's nice to dogs.

He's only nice to dogs because the Arl won't let you use Doggy in the duel. 

[SusanStoHelit]

No you can't. In a medieval-type setting, you don't need a 'fair trial' in a court of law. Courts were run by local lords and kings, not by some 'justice system' with a 'neutral' judge, much less lawyers and so on. Trials generally consisted of being accused, and then being convicted (or not) on little to no evidence. One such example was trial by combat (which is what we have an example of here). If Loghain is defeated in a trial by combat - he IS guilty and everyone knows it. And the penalty for treason is death (just ask Leliana). No ifs, buts or maybes. You could get away with murdering commoners and committing all kinds of crimes, but treason = death. Or you could just torture him until he confesses - historically tried and true method of finding out if someone was guilty in such a setting.

[DPSSOC]

I find the Loghain incident rather understandable. If you were to let him live but not make him a grey warden the law demands that he be executed for treason. So unless you put the traitor's daughter on the throne by herself (as opposed to Alistair or the 2 together) he's a dead man, killing him at the duel does 3 things 1) Saves time, 2) Ensures justice is done (robbing him of the chance to appeal or escape) 3) Grants him the dignity of a warrior's death as opposed to being hung.