9 réponses à ce sujet

[Blazomancer]

I've been running a dex based warrior tank (human noble) for some time now, just hit level 35 and about to complete awakening. I'm quite happy with it and almost can't resist the urge to share my build with you fellow gamers. But then I guess there's always room for improvement. I'd really appreciate any suggestions to optimize my build.


At level 35, my attributes (base+bonus) look like this:
=========================================

Strength:        64 (47+17)
Dexterity:        114 (97+17)
Willpower:        45 (29+16)
Magic:         24 (13+11)
Cunning:        28 (18+10)
Constitution:    43 (15+28)



The Talents and Specializations I picked:
================================

Specializations:
1. Champion (Full Tree)
2. Templar (Full Tree)
3. Spirit Warrior (Full Tree)

Other Talents:
Warrior: All Talents except Massacre
Weapon and shield: All Talents
Archery: Master Archer, and Accuracy from the fourth tree.



Skills:
====
Combat Training, Vitality and Clarity maximised, rest here and there.



Equipment:
=========

Main Hand: Voice of Velvet (1 Momentum rune + 2 Paragon Silverite Rune/(1 Paragon Flame+1 Paragon Lightning))
Off Hand: Landsmeet Shield (I'm not using the Legion of the Dead Heraldry because it just seems too much to me)
Head: Helm of Honnleath
Hands: Stormchaser Gauntlets
Chest: Golem Shell Armor (2 Evasion Rune + 1 Amplification Rune)
Feet: Fleet Feet

Belt: Andruil's Blessing
Amulet: The Spellward
Ring 1: Lifegiver
Ring 2: Key to the City

2nd Weapon Slot: Sorrows of Arlathan as a backup ranged weapon

Companions: Sigrun, Velanna and Anders

And well, that's about it.

[Ferretinabun]

If you're going for optimal build, then I think all that dex is a bit of a waste.

I suggested this to someone else on here yesterday and now I'm going mad looking for the thread I found it in with all the numbers, but the short version is that at some point, continuing to pump Dex is futile. Your character will be unhittable via basic attacks and will only get whacked by special attacks which will hit you anyway. I wish I could remember what the cap was/find the thread again, but that's the gist of it.

Instead, it suggested going 50:50 Str/Dex, or even 2:1 Str/Dex. It's more points-efficient.

Sorry I don't have the numbers, but if you wanted to tinker around with your build, that's my suggestion.

[jillabender]

Thanks for the tip, Ferretinabun!

[Blazomancer]

Ferretinabun wrote...

If you're going for optimal build, then I think all that dex is a bit of a waste.

I suggested this to someone else on here yesterday and now I'm going mad looking for the thread I found it in with all the numbers, but the short version is that at some point, continuing to pump Dex is futile. Your character will be unhittable via basic attacks and will only get whacked by special attacks which will hit you anyway. I wish I could remember what the cap was/find the thread again, but that's the gist of it.

Instead, it suggested going 50:50 Str/Dex, or even 2:1 Str/Dex. It's more points-efficient.

Sorry I don't have the numbers, but if you wanted to tinker around with your build, that's my suggestion.

So attributes are capped at some point? I'm sorry, but I have my doubts about that because I noticed with each point I spent on Dex, my main hand damage was increasing, which would not have been the case if Dex were capped off at some point. But still, I would like to find out about it if there's any; if you could find that thread you mentioned, please do link it.


About point efficiency, isn't going 2:1 Str/Dex or 1:2 Str/Dex kind of the same thing if I equip a dagger; I mean after all the averaged cummulative value of Str and Dex is going into the damage calculation for daggers, isn't it?

I'm certainly at a loss about what benefit I would have by pumping Str over Dex. As far as I can think, both are kind of same. The benefits of using dagger with high dex, as I've seen in my curreny playthrough are as  below:

*Even though my warden is a warrior, my crit chance and crit damage is somewhat more than an SnS Tank. I think my crit chance is somewhere around 0.25 with 0.14 alone from Voice of Velvet and the remaining from gears plus Sigrun's somewhat weak Song of Courage. Armor penetration as a side effect will also be in my favor with about twice that of an SnS warrior.

*I can have a far more superior attack speed than a sword and shield wielding warrior, daggers being faster than swords by 0.4 modifier. In addition to that, I can safely max out the -0.5 character speed modifier (in my case, -0.25 from haste, -0.2 from blessing of the fade and -0.05 from one momentum rune) without triggering the bug that affects any speed modifier less than 0.5. That way I will be only 1/2 second slower than the fastest possible DW rogue. As such, my DPS will be same or may be marginally more than even a Vigilance wielding SnS warrior, if we compare two warriors with Str/Dex ratio of 1:2 and 2:1 respectively.

*The armor rune slots can be enchnated with three amplification rune to increase my spirit damage from soulbrand by 15% since I don't have to care about constitution or evasion runes. Nor would I need reservoir runes as most of the time I would be autoattacking with great speed with occasional taunts, warcry, and/or peon's plight. In fact, I think the greatest damage my warden dealt was 694 which is good I think for an SnS tank.

Now if we see the benefits of going 2:1 Str/Dex, they may be as far as I can think:

* Versatility to use all full sized weapons as they are all completely Str based, while my build will be limited to daggers for more damage, daggers being 1/2 Str,and 1/2 Dex. Even if I equip Vigilance, my damage will be lower than what I would do with a high end dagger. But the damage I'll dish out with dagger -0.4 faster than a Vigilance wielding Str heavy warden will be same or even a bit more. So, at last isn't it the same?

* Full sized weapons a have higher attribute modifier, that is 1, in contrast to a dagger's att. modifier of .85. Therefore, a full sized weapon would have a little bit more damage per hit. But again, my build have speed, and speed wins in war.


Now, to sum up all that I've stated above, we can consider a hypothetical situation, which is in no way accurate in terms of value, but just for a general idea. Suppose a high dex warden like in my build is pitted against a high str warden. Then if the dex warden have a base weapon damage of about 100, then the Str based will have about 115. But with 0.4 less attack duration, by the time the str based warden scores two hits of 230 total damage, the dex base warden would have scored 3 hits of 300 total damage, plus would be 33.3333333333............ % into executing his next attack. So, more DPS obviously. As an icing on the cake, with more crit chance, and more number of hits, the dex warden will have better chance to crit leading to even more damage, albeit rarely, like once in four hits. Since a Str based SnS warrior would not have DPS centered talents like the Dual Wielders have, spamming talents for more damage is not an option, in which case, the attack speed would not have mattered, since talents execute at the speed of the attack animation regardless of the attack speed of the player.


To be honest, I can't think of any advantage that a Str based Sword and Shield warrior will have over my dex based dagger and Shield wielding warden, whether you speak in terms of DPS or in terms of just effective tanking without any priority to damage dealing. But then, that's my calculation of the combat mechanics, and my math may be wrong.

Modifié par Blazomancer, 08 août 2012 - 01:43 .

[jillabender]

@Blazomancer: If you're using a dagger with a shield, that does indeed change things, because daggers, as you point out, use dex as well as strength to determine damage – unlike longswords.

If you were using a longsword with a shield, the only things you would need dex for would be attack and defense, and if Ferretinabun is correct, added defense gives no benefit beyond a certain point. In that case, it would make sense not to stack dex beyond a certain point. But with a dagger-and-shield build like yours, dexterity becomes much more important.

Thanks for sharing your build – you've inspired me to experiment with a shield-and-dagger tank! ^__^

Modifié par jillabender, 08 août 2012 - 02:27 .

[Blazomancer]

@Jillabender - Exactly, that's what I meant.

[Ferretinabun]

Blazo - You're right about the cap, I used that word carelessly. I meant it in terms of a 'soft cap'. That is, your damage will still go up but after about 150 defence (or thereabouts) you're practically unhittable beyond special attacks so you don't really need to worry about it. Whereas strength will add to your damage, and also boost the damage you do in special attacks such as Shield Bash.

Having said all that, I don't think I took into account the fact you're using a dagger rather than a sword.

And after another 30 mins of searching I still can't find that $%£ing thread.

So basically, I'll be in the corner eating pie...

[Blazomancer]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Blazo - You're right about the cap, I used that word carelessly. I meant it in terms of a 'soft cap'. That is, your damage will still go up but after about 150 defence (or thereabouts) you're practically unhittable beyond special attacks so you don't really need to worry about it. Whereas strength will add to your damage, and also boost the damage you do in special attacks such as Shield Bash.

Having said all that, I don't think I took into account the fact you're using a dagger rather than a sword.

And after another 30 mins of searching I still can't find that $%£ing thread.

So basically, I'll be in the corner eating pie...

Right, the basic mob hardly seem to touch anybody with such amount of defence.

[maroczys]

Hiya. Little bit unfamiliar with Awakening equips now, but would increasing CUN be a good idea (to increase armour penetration) if you're using a dagger? Since you're almost impossible to take down you may as well try and maximize your damage output. Thanks.

Modifié par maroczys, 11 août 2012 - 09:39 .

[Blazomancer]

maroczys wrote...

Hiya. Little bit unfamiliar with Awakening equips now, but would increasing CUN be a good idea (to increase armour penetration) if you're using a dagger? Since you're almost impossible to take down you may as well try and maximize your damage output. Thanks.

I guess telekinetic weapons sustained by a mage is pretty much enough to boost the armor penetration value even further. Then the regular mob hardly have that much high armor rating. And well, since AP just cancels out the armor rating, I guess it's kind of same to increase the base damage by spending points in dex/str, or increasing AP by spending on Cun.