199 réponses à ce sujet

[Core_Commander]

A Wild Snorlax wrote...

100 buffs don't matter if they are too small to make a difference.

Stop being a fanboy sheep and defending your idols without thinking.

A Wild Snorlax wrote...

If you seriously think the
balancing team is doing a good job then you are either a sheep or just
less intelligent, probably both.

The fact that they are getting paid for doing what they are doing is a travesty.

If you think that tech burst buff, armor powers buffs, Saber buff, shockwave buff, flamethrower buff, engineers' buffs, every-single-grenade-power buffs "don't matter" and that's "a travesty" that people are paid for that...

...then you're the one who's doing the talking without thinking here. If not a sheep, then a bull blind with rage, maybe?

Got anything to say about things I listed? "They don't matter"?

It's blind raging and whining, without coherent arguments or willingness to compromise on both sides of that pathetic forum war that's making this place into a bog, not only "the nerfers". You're a part of the problem, although I fully expect that to fall on deaf ears in this case.

Modifié par Core_Commander, 08 août 2012 - 11:30 .

[Poison_Berrie]

DarkseidXIII wrote...

220 buffs? you mean they buff our abilities to keep up with the 3 fold buffs of the enemies?! holy crap! they're just spoiling us..... Shut up nerfer! You Suck!

Geth went from pushovers to inline with the other enemies, while exposing the bugs lying underneath.
The Cerberus buffs weren't the type of buffs they needed, but neither did they actually make Cerberus harder.

Most other enemy buffs where bug fixes (though it's disheartening that they manage to fix those while several player impeding bugs remain), which don't actually count as nerfs.

The delusion that enemies are getting buffed all the time and that they are so much stronger than before is quite prevelent, though, so I don't think this is the last we'll see of it.

Also a lot of attacks here. Could we actually keep it civil? I know emotions can flare high, but it's really not helping.

[ErrorTagUnknown]

ah gamers and their prone-ness to hyperbole. Everybody hates it when everybody on here whines 24 hours a day!

but seriously though....
my lord. they don't make the guns unuseable... they're just less powerful than they were, so people get frustrated and throw them away, instead of recognizing that they are STILL powerful in their own right.

And for the record i see more "anti-nerf" threads than nerf threads.... if i was part of the Fagnan team i would be thinking "the lady doth protest too much"
( i know i know, it's a misinterpretation of the original line - but you get my point )
you see 90 "dont nerf x" threads a day (see, i can do the hyperbole thing too)... i would start thinking that a nerf was needed. just sayin.

[ErrorTagUnknown]

yeah, and i'm with Poison_Berrie

Ad Hominem doesn't actually amount to a valid argument.

[ErrorTagUnknown]

and anyway, so the game is SLIGHTLY harder without your OP gun.... or maybe it gets you to pick something else that you become actually better with (because DPS is partially an illusion, you'll almost never get true DPS... so how well you can use a given gun comes in to play as well)

[nuclearpengu1nn]

Nerfering the things to near uselessness and buffing some to broken is not "balancing."

[121210Olivia]

ErrorTagUnknown wrote...

and anyway, so the game is SLIGHTLY harder without your OP gun.... or maybe it gets you to pick something else that you become actually better with (because DPS is partially an illusion, you'll almost never get true DPS... so how well you can use a given gun comes in to play as well)

There is nothing slight about it: the game gets harder. 

[Geth Platforms]

Yay for 220 bufff to bad weapon and nerf gold gun to common rank

[Dendio1]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

AbhijitSM wrote...

OP the numbers may mean nothing.
Number of buffs 220 > Number of nerfs 40
But....
Magnitude of nerfs 40 > Magnitude of buffs 220

Seriously whenever bioware has nerfed they seem to render some things totally useless.

Actually only five things have had nerfs that can be considered of magnitude.

Falcon
Sabotage
Tactical Cloak
Krysea
Typhoon

Also buffs of magnitude
Blade Armor/Barrier/Fortification
Tech Armor (over an extended period)
Almost all grenades
Adrenaline Rush (over an extended period)
Drell Fitness
Tech Burst and Fire Explosions
Shockwave
Combat Drone
Sentry Turret
Several assault rifles (over an extended period)

Reason has no place on these boards my friend.

[Cloaking_Thane]

For perspective they nerfed the vindicator for about 2 months before restoring it to original levels.

So it was OP by their metrics then not OP......

Hmmm

[Nelzeben]

It's funny because I've been considering posting a thread to tell people to stop using exactly those "statistics". I didn't, because we don't need more nerf/buff threads, but I don't see why anyone would think the buff/nerf ratio is a valid argument.

The problem isn't the number of nerfs, but their size. Which weapon that was considered to be mediocre at best has been made amazing by buffs? I can't think of one. I would, however, say the Falcon and Krysae used to be pretty powerful and now are mediocre/situational.

You can't compare making an utterly useless gun, like the Eagle, slightly less useless to nerfing the Falcon/Krysae/TC. (And for this argument, it doesn't matter whether you agree with the nerfs or not, they're just not comparable to most buffs.)

I never counted the nerfs/buffs myself so I don't know, but I hope you didn't count enemy buffs as actual buffs in your "statistics" without saying so.



Edited for clarity.

Modifié par Nelzeben, 08 août 2012 - 01:35 .

[Striker93175]

Seems most nerfers like a reload cancelled claymore. I say lets be fair and balance the claymore... ya know... lets increase the spread on it 3x, lets make it impossible to reload cancel... and lets give it 5x the reload time. I mean afterall for the damage it can deliver, it sounds only fair eh?

No I am not actually FOR this, I just figured i'd toss that one out there and go grab some popcorn and watch the s-storm unfold from the mere suggestion.

[jd8291]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

AbhijitSM wrote...

OP the numbers may mean nothing.
Number of buffs 220 > Number of nerfs 40
But....
Magnitude of nerfs 40 > Magnitude of buffs 220

Seriously whenever bioware has nerfed they seem to render some things totally useless.

Actually only five things have had nerfs that can be considered of magnitude.

Falcon
Sabotage
Tactical Cloak
Krysea
Typhoon

Also buffs of magnitude
Blade Armor/Barrier/Fortification
Tech Armor (over an extended period)
Almost all grenades
Adrenaline Rush (over an extended period)
Drell Fitness
Tech Burst and Fire Explosions
Shockwave
Combat Drone
Sentry Turret
Several assault rifles (over an extended period)

I don't think it's fair to include the Blade Armor and Tech Armor on that list, I don't think those changes actually made a new play style viable.  Further, it's not reasonable to include the Tech Burst and Fire Explosions as substantial buffs unless you include the nerf to Biotic Explosions on the other list.  (Seen many biotic death squads lately?)

However, I agree that they have at least made the Combat Drone and Sentry Turret no longer embarrassingly bad, and the change to shockwave was definitely substantial.

[Klokos]

jd8291 wrote...


I don't think it's fair to include the Blade Armor and Tech Armor on that list, I don't think those changes actually made a new play style viable.  Further, it's not reasonable to include the Tech Burst and Fire Explosions as substantial buffs unless you include the nerf to Biotic Explosions on the other list.  (Seen many biotic death squads lately?)

However, I agree that they have at least made the Combat Drone and Sentry Turret no longer embarrassingly bad, and the change to shockwave was definitely substantial.

 I'm  not sure about tech armor and blade armor, but I sure see more Sentinel/batarians using it in gold and doing quite good than before it was nerfed.

 And yes, There is still quite a lot of Biotic death squads (but I think it's thanks to the TC nerf).

[jd8291]

Klokos wrote...

jd8291 wrote...


I don't think it's fair to include the Blade Armor and Tech Armor on that list, I don't think those changes actually made a new play style viable.  Further, it's not reasonable to include the Tech Burst and Fire Explosions as substantial buffs unless you include the nerf to Biotic Explosions on the other list.  (Seen many biotic death squads lately?)

However, I agree that they have at least made the Combat Drone and Sentry Turret no longer embarrassingly bad, and the change to shockwave was definitely substantial.

 I'm  not sure about tech armor and blade armor, but I sure see more Sentinel/batarians using it in gold and doing quite good than before it was nerfed.

 And yes, There is still quite a lot of Biotic death squads (but I think it's thanks to the TC nerf).

Fair enough, that hasn't been my experience.  I see a lot of infiltrators and tech power users but not many biotics.  I do see Batarian sentinels (or did before the Earth DLC) but I attributed that more to the Shockwave buffs.

[Poison_Berrie]

Nelzeben wrote...

The problem isn't the number of nerfs, but their size. Which weapon that was considered to be mediocre at best has been made amazing by buffs? I can't think of one. I would, however, say the Falcon and Krysae used to be pretty powerful and now are mediocre/situational.

Mattock, Indra, Arc Pistol, Saber.
The Falcon and Krysae both have the property of doing AoE damage and staggering. This alone is a unique factor that gives the weapon serious power. That you they take can't kill a single target as easily as a single target gun is a logical trade off.

You can't compare making an utterly useless gun, like the Eagle, slightly less useless to nerfing the Falcon/Krysae/TC. (And for this argument, it doesn't matter whether you agree with the nerfs or not, they're just not comparable to most buffs.)

But that's ignoring that those buffs have made things useful. And not just weapons, especially powers have recieved considerable buffs. 
The fact is that most of the nerfs aren't that severe either. It's only a few of them and they define the entire view point. The 5-6 nerfs that were considerable are the thing that everyone jumps on.
Sorry it might not work to just compare the number of buffs and nerfs, but it works the other way around, you can't just focus on the few severe nerfs and ignore the lesser nerfs and the big buffs.

[Klokos]

jd8291 wrote...

Fair enough, that hasn't been my experience.  I see a lot of infiltrators and tech power users but not many biotics.  I do see Batarian sentinels (or did before the Earth DLC) but I attributed that more to the Shockwave buffs.

 Yes, Tech users are more frequents, but it seems it has always been like that (maybe the biotics were a bit higher pre-BE nerf), I'm not sure a lot of people care about shockwave, most people still ignore it and treat it as a useless power.

[Poison_Berrie]

jd8291 wrote...

I don't think it's fair to include the Blade Armor and Tech Armor on that list, I don't think those changes actually made a new play style viable.  Further, it's not reasonable to include the Tech Burst and Fire Explosions as substantial buffs unless you include the nerf to Biotic Explosions on the other list.  (Seen many biotic death squads lately?)

However, I agree that they have at least made the Combat Drone and Sentry Turret no longer embarrassingly bad, and the change to shockwave was definitely substantial.

Why not. At launch you'd be stupid to spec into Tech Armor and Blade Armor wasn't worth it unless you want with a melee build.

Also the Biotic Explosion nerf wasn't that big a deal. I still use Biotic Explosions to great effect. I don't know what is the source of biotic death squads decline, but it's not the decrease in radius.

[UKStory135]

Nelzeben wrote...

It's funny because I've been considering posting a thread to tell people to stop using exactly those "statistics". I didn't, because we don't need more nerf/buff threads, but I don't see why anyone would think the buff/nerf ratio is a valid argument.

The problem isn't the number of nerfs, but their size. Which weapon that was considered to be mediocre at best has been made amazing by buffs? I can't think of one. I would, however, say the Falcon and Krysae used to be pretty powerful and now are mediocre/situational.

You can't compare making an utterly useless gun, like the Eagle, slightly less useless to nerfing the Falcon/Krysae/TC. (And for this argument, it doesn't matter whether you agree with the nerfs or not, they're just not comparable to most buffs.)

I never counted the nerfs/buffs myself so I don't know, but I hope you didn't count enemy buffs as actual buffs in your "statistics" without saying so.



Edited for clarity.

A few weeks ago, it was a valid argument.  The Falcon was the only thing that got absolutely ruined on here until right before Earth came out.  When a gun that even the indoctrinated nerfer trolls do not feel is OP get's a 25% DPS reduction, counting the number of buffs vs. the number of nerfs becomes a matter of false equivalency.

[jd8291]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

jd8291 wrote...

I don't think it's fair to include the Blade Armor and Tech Armor on that list, I don't think those changes actually made a new play style viable.  Further, it's not reasonable to include the Tech Burst and Fire Explosions as substantial buffs unless you include the nerf to Biotic Explosions on the other list.  (Seen many biotic death squads lately?)

However, I agree that they have at least made the Combat Drone and Sentry Turret no longer embarrassingly bad, and the change to shockwave was definitely substantial.

Why not. At launch you'd be stupid to spec into Tech Armor and Blade Armor wasn't worth it unless you want with a melee build.

Also the Biotic Explosion nerf wasn't that big a deal. I still use Biotic Explosions to great effect. I don't know what is the source of biotic death squads decline, but it's not the decrease in radius.

Again, I think my experience may be more limited / different.  I haven't seen blade armor used more frequently since the buff and tech armor always seems to have been around.  Apparently other people have a different experience.  

I'm not positive about the biotic death squad decline either.  It does seem to correlate with the nerf, but I think the nerf was happening at the same time people were discovering the ridiculous power of the GI.  So who knows the cause.

[dysturbed0ne]

Also, when you include TC in your list of nerfs and head shot removal of bosses, you have to include every sniper rifle as getting nerf'd. Evo 6 of TC was really the only thing that made them shine, so add a 15% (multiplier) nerf to all SR's as well.

So keeping score, BW has basically made the most powerful weapons in the game (SR's) trivial, they finally give us a nice AR....for a couple weeks. The only really effective SMG is a promotional, so VERY few people will ever see it at even at half it's potential, (I don't even have it yet) and there isn't even a UR smg, not that it would be effective anyway. Pistols are effective......on power classes, NOT as a main weapon for shooters. Then there are the shotguns, these are basically what the shooters are left with to compete, and you wonder why people are pissed about the Piranha?

Remember, I'm talking about the casual players, not the ones that sit there for hours mastering weapon combinations. People that want to pick up a weapon and compete effectively, which we should be able to do. I have watched a good biotic user easily out score my Piranha with full damage mods, and I am a above average player. How do you compete with unlimited range, curving powers, through any barrier damage and insane combo damage?

Your list has plenty of significant "power" buffs, but some of us (a good portion imo) like to shoot and don't want to worry about power combinations. We like to have weapons that can compete with the power spamming classes. The fact that BW gives us said weapons and then takes them away is frustrating to say the least, especially when the continue to buff the powers, as you have pointed out.

I think BW is losing touch with it's biggest player base....the casual players.

[Biotic_Warlock]

People only notice cos they are on popular weapons.

After the Krysae Nerf the forums exploded. Last night they exploded after piranha nerf was confirmed.

[Alijah Green]

iplay222 wrote...

I've posted these statistics in several threads but nobody seems to take notice.

There have been around 220 buffs in this game.

And there have been roughly 40 nerfs.

Not only does that disprove the 'Constant nerfing' claims so many people make on these forums but it also means this:

Some of you also say that there are constant nerf threads 

Some of you tell Bioware to 'Stop listening to the community'

Put those 2 reasons together and think about this, Surely if Bioware had been listening to the community from the beginning (according to your logic), a hell of alot more guns should have been nerfed, because of these 2 reasons that you often give to enforce your own argument.

Well, when put with statistics, they contradict each other.

I understand that a single person who is against nerfing won't nessercerily agree with some of the statements that others who are against nerfing/balancing make, but for the sake of this argument, I'm putting different reasons that are given together.

220 buffs were on uncommons and the others on new weapons after DLC came out and everyone using a OP (insert your fav OP class character here) class with said nerfed weapon.

http://social.biowar.../index/13572582 this thread will fix all balance needs

Modifié par Alijah Green, 08 août 2012 - 02:20 .

[OuterRim]

scoopapa1 wrote...

The only way these "major" nerfs were a big deal is if you never used anything else. If the Krysae nerf ruined the game, what did you do before the Krysae was released? Ditto the Typhoon and impending Piranha nerfs

So you're one of those guys who believes only the old guns should be good? Why bother downloading new DLC's then? Just stay in the ME stone age and let the rest of us have fun with no nerf new weapons.

[Klokos]

dysturbed0ne wrote...

Also, when you include TC in your list of nerfs and head shot removal of bosses, you have to include every sniper rifle as getting nerf'd. Evo 6 of TC was really the only thing that made them shine, so add a 15% (multiplier) nerf to all SR's as well.

 No, removal headshot on Geth Prime affected every weapons, not only SR. not to mention that Evo 6 wasn't the only good thing about TC.

dysturbed0ne wrote...
So keeping score, BW has basically made the most powerful weapons in the game (SR's) trivial, they finally give us a nice AR....for a couple weeks. The only really effective SMG is a promotional, so VERY few people will ever see it at even at half it's potential, (I don't even have it yet) and there isn't even a UR smg, not that it would be effective anyway. Pistols are effective......on power classes, NOT as a main weapon for shooters. Then there are the shotguns, these are basically what the shooters are left with to compete, and you wonder why people are pissed about the Piranha?

 SR are still revelant in Gold, typhoon is still good, quite a lot of AR are good in gold, Hornet is effective on gold, pistol are great, now with the acolyte and Pistol UR every class can benefit from them, there several great shotguns and we Piranha will still be useful.

dysturbed0ne wrote...
Remember, I'm talking about the casual players, not the ones that sit there for hours mastering weapon combinations. People that want to pick up a weapon and compete effectively, which we should be able to do. I have watched a good biotic user easily out score my Piranha with full damage mods, and I am a above average player. How do you compete with unlimited range, curving powers, through any barrier damage and insane combo damage?

Your list has plenty of significant "power" buffs, but some of us (a good portion imo) like to shoot and don't want to worry about power combinations. We like to have weapons that can compete with the power spamming classes. The fact that BW gives us said weapons and then takes them away is frustrating to say the least, especially when the continue to buff the powers, as you have pointed out.

I think BW is losing touch with it's biggest player base....the casual players.

 And yet tech/weapon based classes often outnumber Biotics. If you're playing a game casualy should you expect to beat the highest difficulty easily ? Silver and Bronze is still rather easy for people that put just a low amount of hours per week in games.