199 réponses à ce sujet

[OuterRim]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

People only notice cos they are on popular weapons.

After the Krysae Nerf the forums exploded. Last night they exploded after piranha nerf was confirmed.

And you would think THAT would tell BioDud something. 

[rmccowen]

dysturbed0ne wrote...

Also, when you include TC in your list of nerfs and head shot removal of bosses, you have to include every sniper rifle as getting nerf'd. Evo 6 of TC was really the only thing that made them shine, so add a 15% (multiplier) nerf to all SR's as well.

Yes, sniper rifles generally need a mild buff. There isn't actually a lot of debate about this point, at least in the BSN community.

But the reduction in TC Evo 6 was entirely necessary. The higher that bonus is, the more difficult it is to balance snipers simultaneously on Infiltrators and on everyone else.

So keeping score, BW has basically made the most powerful weapons in the game (SR's) trivial...

Snipers were never the most powerful weapons in the game, except on Infiltrators--and then only arguably, since shotgun Infiltrators have been well respected for quite a while. That indicates that there is (was) a problem with both snipers and the Infiltrator.

...they finally give us a nice AR....for a couple weeks.

It's still nice, and you're ignoring the existence of the Harrier--and the real effectiveness of weapons like the Revenant and Phaeston.

The only really effective SMG is a promotional, so VERY few people will ever see it at even at half it's potential, (I don't even have it yet) and there isn't even a UR smg, not that it would be effective anyway.

The Tempest and Hornet would like a word with you. 

Pistols are effective......on power classes, NOT as a main weapon for shooters.

That distortion in the air over there is my Paladin-wielding GI queueing up behind the Tempest and Hornet.

Then there are the shotguns, these are basically what the shooters are left with to compete, and you wonder why people are pissed about the Piranha?

People are pissed about the Piranha because they don't want their "I win" button taken away. There's no other explanation required.

Remember, I'm talking about the casual players, not the ones that sit there for hours mastering weapon combinations. People that want to pick up a weapon and compete effectively, which we should be able to do. I have watched a good biotic user easily out score my Piranha with full damage mods, and I am a above average player. How do you compete with unlimited range, curving powers, through any barrier damage and insane combo damage?

What's amusing to me here is the number of people on BSN who argue that nerfing weapons is unjustified because weapon classes are much better than casters, so nerfing weapons increases the overall difficulty of the game.

And your argument is that nerfing weapons is unjustified because casters are more powerful. I'm not making you responsible for other people's foolishness, but I do occasionally wonder what BSN must look like to Bioware.

[bigkahuna077]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

AbhijitSM wrote...

OP the numbers may mean nothing.
Number of buffs 220 > Number of nerfs 40
But....
Magnitude of nerfs 40 > Magnitude of buffs 220

Seriously whenever bioware has nerfed they seem to render some things totally useless.

Actually only five things have had nerfs that can be considered of magnitude.

Falcon
Sabotage
Tactical Cloak
Krysea
Typhoon

Also buffs of magnitude
Blade Armor/Barrier/Fortification
Tech Armor (over an extended period)
Almost all grenades
Adrenaline Rush (over an extended period)
Drell Fitness
Tech Burst and Fire Explosions
Shockwave
Combat Drone
Sentry Turret
Several assault rifles (over an extended period)

don't forget the mattock,  it has been buffed multiple times and is a excellent weapon but very few people actually use it, its sad really.

[dysturbed0ne]

Klokos wrote...

 No, removal headshot on Geth Prime affected every weapons, not only SR. not to mention that Evo 6 wasn't the only good thing about TC.

Yes, it affected every weapon, but headshots are what snipers were meant to do. Evo 6 was easily the best thing for SR's and really hurt there usefulness and since I was specifically talking about SR's, it is valid.

 SR are still revelant in Gold, typhoon is still good, quite a lot of AR are good in gold, Hornet is effective on gold, pistol are great, now with the acolyte and Pistol UR every class can benefit from them, there several great shotguns and we Piranha will still be useful.

I never said weapons were not viable, my comparison was basically to compete with power users. Powers were strong before and have been made stronger, while the powerful weapons get weaker. Not to mention most powers can be performed from relative safety, if not complete safety.


 And yet tech/weapon based classes often outnumber Biotics. If you're playing a game casualy should you expect to beat the highest difficulty easily ? Silver and Bronze is still rather easy for people that put just a low amount of hours per week in games.

You are right, because like I said, people like to shoot. The problem is, people are struggling with these tech/weapon classes because BW giveth and then BW taketh away. I play Platinum PuG's just about everyday and it is by no means easy. Even with the so-called OP weapons, without teamwork or some sense of cohesion, most teams will fail. The easiest matches I have in platinum typically include 2 biotics.

[Poison_Berrie]

dysturbed0ne wrote...

So keeping score, BW has basically made the most powerful weapons in the game (SR's) trivial, they finally give us a nice AR....for a couple weeks. The only really effective SMG is a promotional, so VERY few people will ever see it at even at half it's potential, (I don't even have it yet) and there isn't even a UR smg, not that it would be effective anyway. Pistols are effective......on power classes, NOT as a main weapon for shooters. Then there are the shotguns, these are basically what the shooters are left with to compete, and you wonder why people are pissed about the Piranha?

They've clearly shown a fault on Sniper Rilfes in that case, since it apparently was only viable on a specific class with one specific evolution. 
There are plenty of viable ARs especially after the buffs. 
There are several usable SMGs, though they needed the new mods to shine. They've finally climbed up. 
Pistols are effective on all classes.

Your list has plenty of significant "power" buffs, but some of us (a good portion imo) like to shoot and don't want to worry about power combinations. We like to have weapons that can compete with the power spamming classes. The fact that BW gives us said weapons and then takes them away is frustrating to say the least, especially when the continue to buff the powers, as you have pointed out.

You must be playing a different game. Gun users have been pulling ahead on the power users for some time now.

[Nelzeben]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Nelzeben wrote...

The problem isn't the number of nerfs, but their size. Which weapon that was considered to be mediocre at best has been made amazing by buffs? I can't think of one. I would, however, say the Falcon and Krysae used to be pretty powerful and now are mediocre/situational.

Mattock, Indra, Arc Pistol, Saber.
The Falcon and Krysae both have the property of doing AoE damage and staggering. This alone is a unique factor that gives the weapon serious power. That you they take can't kill a single target as easily as a single target gun is a logical trade off.

You can't compare making an utterly useless gun, like the Eagle, slightly less useless to nerfing the Falcon/Krysae/TC. (And for this argument, it doesn't matter whether you agree with the nerfs or not, they're just not comparable to most buffs.)

But that's ignoring that those buffs have made things useful. And not just weapons, especially powers have recieved considerable buffs. 
The fact is that most of the nerfs aren't that severe either. It's only a few of them and they define the entire view point. The 5-6 nerfs that were considerable are the thing that everyone jumps on.
Sorry it might not work to just compare the number of buffs and nerfs, but it works the other way around, you can't just focus on the few severe nerfs and ignore the lesser nerfs and the big buffs.

Fair enough, I don't know when the Mattock or the Saber got buffed, maybe I didn't have them at the time. I've always liked the Indra, but still wouldn't call it amazing and the Arc Pistol is matter of taste, I'd say.* I also didn't say the Falcon and the Krysae didn't need a nerf, merely that it was much more drastic than most buffs I can remember. (I don't think they needed a nerf that big, but that's neither here nor there and not important for this argument.)

*Many weapons can be made amazing by the right person/setup. The Falcon or Krysae didn't have such requirement. Again, whether they really were overpowered isn't my point here.


True, powers have gotten some pretty nice buffs, but there are hardly any buffs that change a power/weapon as much as some of the nerfs do. That's pretty much my entire point.
I agree that you can't only focus on the drastic nerfs, I didn't mean to suggest that that is what I'm doing. I'm merely tired of people saying that there have been so many buffs, people should stop whining. Besides, it's always going to be more noticable if something great is suddenly only mediocre as opposed to something mediocre slowly becoming useful.

[tMc Tallgeese]

Who needs TV when I've got a forum like this to watch.

[UKStory135]

bigkahuna077 wrote...

Poison_Berrie wrote...

AbhijitSM wrote...

OP the numbers may mean nothing.
Number of buffs 220 > Number of nerfs 40
But....
Magnitude of nerfs 40 > Magnitude of buffs 220

Seriously whenever bioware has nerfed they seem to render some things totally useless.

Actually only five things have had nerfs that can be considered of magnitude.

Falcon
Sabotage
Tactical Cloak
Krysea
Typhoon

Also buffs of magnitude
Blade Armor/Barrier/Fortification
Tech Armor (over an extended period)
Almost all grenades
Adrenaline Rush (over an extended period)
Drell Fitness
Tech Burst and Fire Explosions
Shockwave
Combat Drone
Sentry Turret
Several assault rifles (over an extended period)

don't forget the mattock,  it has been buffed multiple times and is a excellent weapon but very few people actually use it, its sad really.

For the Mattock to be as good as people say it is, you have to pull the Trigger at exactly 7.5 times per second.  The Harrier beats the Mattock's theorectical DPS at Level IV.  Of course the Harrier also got a 25% weight increase, which basically limits it to grenade throwers. 

[FlamboyantRoy]

I've posted these statistics in several threads but nobody seems to take notice.

There have been around 220 potlucks in this city.

And there have been roughly 40 shootings at these potlucks.

Not only does that disprove the 'Constant shootings' claims so many people make on these forums but it also means this:

Some of you also say that there are constant shooting threads

Some of you tell the town hall of New York to 'Stop listening to the homicidal community'

Put those 2 reasons together and think about this, Surely if New York had been listening to the community from the beginning (according to your logic), a hell of alot more potlucks should have had shootings, because of these 2 reasons that you often give to enforce your own argument.

Well, when put with statistics, they contradict each other.

I understand that a single person who is against shootings won't nessercerily agree with some of the statements that others who are against shootings/balancing make, but for the sake of this argument, I'm putting different reasons that are given together.

Modifié par FlamboyantRoy, 08 août 2012 - 02:59 .

[rmccowen]

UKStory135 wrote...

For the Mattock to be as good as people say it is, you have to pull the Trigger at exactly 7.5 times per second.

If you're looking for a reasonably light weapon with a high refire rate and good damage per round, the Mattock satisfies. It's by no means better than the Harrier, but it's very good.

The Harrier beats the Mattock's theorectical DPS at Level IV.  Of course the Harrier also got a 25% weight increase, which basically limits it to grenade throwers.

Right, because a weight change for the Harrier X affects a massive number of players.

[Poison_Berrie]

FlamboyantRoy wrote...
snip.

What did I just read. Am I high or are you high, Roy? 

[DeathIsHere]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

AbhijitSM wrote...

OP the numbers may mean nothing.
Number of buffs 220 > Number of nerfs 40
But....
Magnitude of nerfs 40 > Magnitude of buffs 220

Seriously whenever bioware has nerfed they seem to render some things totally useless.

Actually only five things have had nerfs that can be considered of magnitude.

Falcon
Sabotage
Tactical Cloak
Krysea
Typhoon

Also buffs of magnitude
Blade Armor/Barrier/Fortification
Tech Armor (over an extended period)
Almost all grenades
Adrenaline Rush (over an extended period)
Drell Fitness
Tech Burst and Fire Explosions
Shockwave
Combat Drone
Sentry Turret
Several assault rifles (over an extended period)

You're not taking into account the fact that all weapons have been nerfed multiple times when the health pools of both the Geth and Cerberus were drastically increased. So that indirectly nerfed every weapon. Armor increases nerfed every SMG.

Add that to patches removing headshots on Geth Primes which nerfed sniper rifles and other weapons and the fact that they still haven't fixed SMG ULM and we have entire weapon classes getting nerfed indirectly.

Also, the nerfs on TC and Krysae were of much higher magnitude than any of those buffs. The Krysae is near useless at this point and TC was changed dramatically. Needed a bit of a change but it was over done a bit. (Duration should have been to 6 seconds, not 4).

[FlamboyantRoy]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

FlamboyantRoy wrote...
snip.

What did I just read. Am I high or are you high, Roy? 

As thick as a rock huh? No worries, I'll have someone spoon feed it to you. As I'm sure you're used to. Having to think is very very difficult, I know! But you need to put on your big boy clothes if you wish to speak with the adults. Ohmk pumpkin?

Some of you must have eaten the marbles.

Think I might just hand in my Darwin card.  

[Immortal Strife]

I have two issues with nerfing: Over Nerfing destroys gun to unusable levels. And class Nerfing ****s up the whole game, example-TC got slammed and now snipers are god awful. A whole weapon class (snipers) became garbage with the snap of a finger.

Modifié par Immortal Strife, 08 août 2012 - 03:17 .

[rmccowen]

Immortal Strife wrote...

I have two issues with nerfing: Over Nerfing destroys gun to unusable levels.

Hasn't happened. No gun is unusable, although the Krysae is essentially there on non-Infiltrators.

And class Nerfing ****s up the whole game, example-TC got slammed and now snipers are god awful. A whole weapon class (snipers) became garbage with the snap of a finger.

Snipers are not god-awful by any means; they're drastically undervalued in the current Gold metagame (although I understand they're genuinely problematic in Platinum). TC also didn't get "slammed"; it's more than fine.

[Atheosis]

Immortal Strife wrote...

I have two issues with nerfing: Over Nerfing destroys gun to unusable levels. And class Nerfing ****s up the whole game, example-TC got slammed and now snipers are god awful. A whole weapon class (snipers) became garbage with the snap of a finger.

The TC nerf was actually one of the best moves they've ever made.  Unfortunately, they needed to buff many sniper rifles (single shots in particular) to compensate and never did.  Likewise they needed to buff Sticky Grenade, Cryo Blast, and Sabotage, and again never did.  The fact that they have arbitrarily limited themselves to between four and six changes per week has created quite a backlog unfortunately, and there's no real evidence that they even really get how much stuff really needs to be buffed.

[LeandroBraz]

They don't care about numbers, statistics or tests, or any of it. What they care is that they favorite weapon is not the same as before, so they come here and start with the hyperboles "it's useless now", "mp is ruined", "they are nerfing everything", and go on.

You can show how much statistics you want, they will ignore it, they want their OP weapon back to what it was and nothing more...

[ToaOrka]

When the buffs are very small and the nerfs render guns useless, I do think that constitutes a sizable differences. Whilst buffs go for quantity over quality, the opposite is true of nerfs.

[UKStory135]

rmccowen wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

For the Mattock to be as good as people say it is, you have to pull the Trigger at exactly 7.5 times per second.

If you're looking for a reasonably light weapon with a high refire rate and good damage per round, the Mattock satisfies. It's by no means better than the Harrier, but it's very good.

The Harrier beats the Mattock's theorectical DPS at Level IV.  Of course the Harrier also got a 25% weight increase, which basically limits it to grenade throwers.

Right, because a weight change for the Harrier X affects a massive number of players.

I'm not saying the Mattock is a bad gun.  It's very good, but it isn't the God Mode that Balancers are claiming to be either.  The Harrier's weight increase affects it at all levels, not just at level X.  

[Poison_Berrie]

DeathIsHere wrote...

You're not taking into account the fact that all weapons have been nerfed multiple times when the health pools of both the Geth and Cerberus were drastically increased. So that indirectly nerfed every weapon. Armor increases nerfed every SMG.

Drastically increased is an over reaction.
The Geth before were push overs. They consisted of a lot of weak enemies and Geth Primes.
Cerberus buffs were small and in the end had little effect on the overall dificulty of the faction.

These changes are meant to actually bring the factions up to the power of guns and powers, rather than as you postulate the other way around.

Add that to patches removing headshots on Geth Primes which nerfed sniper rifles and other weapons and the fact that they still haven't fixed SMG ULM and we have entire weapon classes getting nerfed indirectly.

The headshotting of Geth Primes and ATLII was a bug that made these bosses as easy as regular troops. If they can make them work differently they'd like to add them back in though.

FlamboyantRoy wrote...

As thick as a rock huh? No worries, I'll have someone spoon feed it to you. As I'm sure you're used to. Having to think is very very difficult, I know! But you need to put on your big boy clothes if you wish to speak with the adults. Ohmk pumpkin?

Some of you must have eaten the marbles.

Think I might just hand in my Darwin card.  

You add some gibberish to a post and I'm supposed to instantly get it.
Is this some sort of popculture refrence, because it's escaping me.

Immortal Strife wrote...

I have two issues with nerfing: Over Nerfing destroys gun to unusable levels. And class Nerfing ****s up the whole game, example-TC got slammed and now snipers are god awful. A whole weapon class (snipers) became garbage with the snap of a finger.

The TC nerf showed an inherent problem with Snipers. They were only powerfull when used with the massive power boost of an infiltrator. Or perhaps they were only powerfull on an Infiltrator because that's what they balanced around.
The problem is that on their own Snipers are too weak.

[UKStory135]

Atheosis wrote...

Immortal Strife wrote...

I have two issues with nerfing: Over Nerfing destroys gun to unusable levels. And class Nerfing ****s up the whole game, example-TC got slammed and now snipers are god awful. A whole weapon class (snipers) became garbage with the snap of a finger.

The TC nerf was actually one of the best moves they've ever made.  Unfortunately, they needed to buff many sniper rifles (single shots in particular) to compensate and never did.  Likewise they needed to buff Sticky Grenade, Cryo Blast, and Sabotage, and again never did.  The fact that they have arbitrarily limited themselves to between four and six changes per week has created quite a backlog unfortunately, and there's no real evidence that they even really get how much stuff really needs to be buffed.

I agree with this. The buff to SR's that has been insinuated but never given, and a dailing back on the Typhoon's massive, unnecessary nerf would do a lot to calm people down.

The balance is kind of messed up right now.  With the exception of the Paladin, all of the classes that I play are grenadiers.  I only choose what type of grenade I want to use and if I want to use the Harrier or a shotgun.

[rmccowen]

UKStory135 wrote...

I'm not saying the Mattock is a bad gun.  It's very good, but it isn't the God Mode that Balancers are claiming to be either.

I haven't seen anyone claim the Mattock is God Mode. It's a nice weapon with a clear purpose, and it's easy to get.

The Harrier's weight increase affects it at all levels, not just at level X.

The Harrier's weight was changed from [1.75 - 1.0] to [1.75 - 1.25]. Instead of decreasing by 0.083 per level, it now decreases by 0.056. That's a trivial change unless you have it at very high level--you need at least a Harrier IV in order to see a 10% marginal difference in cooldown, which still probably isn't enough to change anyone's mind.

[Immortal Strife]

Yes snipers are too weak but atleast they were usable on infiltrator, now they a more novelty than effective. You are doing yourself a disservice by equipping a sniper.

*A shooter without a good sniper is like a cake without frosting.

Modifié par Immortal Strife, 08 août 2012 - 03:44 .

[rmccowen]

UKStory135 wrote...

I agree with this. The buff to SR's that has been insinuated but never given...

Okay, sure.

...and a dailing back on the Typhoon's massive, unnecessary nerf would do a lot to calm people down.

The change to the Typhoon was unexpected but, given the stats that were just released this week, completely justifiable. A Typhoon I still does 1000 base DPS against armor, shields, and barriers--meaning every boss in the game.

The balance is kind of messed up right now.  With the exception of the Paladin, all of the classes that I play are grenadiers.  I only choose what type of grenade I want to use and if I want to use the Harrier or a shotgun.

That's a personal preference, not a balance problem. There are a lot of good weapons out there, and a lot of good classes with no grenades at all, and the fact that you refuse to use them is not a problem on Bioware's end.

[rmccowen]

Immortal Strife wrote...

Yes snipers we're and are too weak but atleast they were usable on infiltrator, now they a more novelty than effective. You are doing yourself a disservice by equipping a sniper.

This is inane hyperbole. Please try again.