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The Silencing of the Anti-Balancers. (probably not, but I can dream)


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#101
FlamboyantRoy

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Poison_Berrie wrote...

[

FlamboyantRoy wrote...

As thick as a rock huh? No worries, I'll have someone spoon feed it to you. As I'm sure you're used to. Having to think is very very difficult, I know! But you need to put on your big boy clothes if you wish to speak with the adults. Ohmk pumpkin?

Some of you must have eaten the marbles.

Think I might just hand in my Darwin card.  

You add some gibberish to a post and I'm supposed to instantly get it.
Is this some sort of popculture refrence, because it's escaping me.


Of course it's escaping you!

Looking at the first few comments on the first page might help you out but I doubt it. 

Nerfs > Buffs in terms of significance.  Before you say ZOMGGEARZORS, gear doesn't help when you get stunlocked. Gear doesn't help much when you get sniped. Gear certainly isn't helping when you're getting insta killed.

But for some, I dunno, BIZARRE reason, good weapons DO help to at least mitigate and even PREVENT the above from happening. While gear rides on the coat tails. 

In all honesty I hope the nerfing and the glitches only get worse. I can't wait to be the first one here to tell you neanderthals "I told you so."

#102
Unfair_Banana

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AbhijitSM wrote...

OP the numbers may mean nothing.
Number of buffs 220 > Number of nerfs 40
But....
Magnitude of nerfs 40 > Magnitude of buffs 220

Seriously whenever bioware has nerfed they seem to render some things totally useless.


^ That ^

#103
Immortal Strife

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rmccowen wrote...

Immortal Strife wrote...

Yes snipers we're and are too weak but atleast they were usable on infiltrator, now they a more novelty than effective. You are doing yourself a disservice by equipping a sniper.

This is inane hyperbole. Please try again.


Go play platinum with a sniper and see how well you can handle phantoms. I'm not anti nerf by any means, but let's face it ME3 is currently dominated by shotguns, auto fire weapons, and grenades. Accuracy is hardly rewarded anymore-TC sniper nerf and the removal of boss weak points- killed snipers. This game takes no skill to be good at all you have to do is hold down the trigger and throw grenades or cast powers. 

#104
Tom1029

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Buffs= +0.2%
Nerf= -15.7% in EVERY STATISTIC!

#105
Uberschveinen

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I think it says everything you need to know about the position of each side that the people who are fine with balance changes are making reasonable arguments backed by actual evidence, and the people whgo aren't are at best making plaintive whining with information that is objectively wrong, if it is even objectively assassable at all.

#106
Curzyfish

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Immortal Strife wrote...

Yes snipers are too weak but atleast they were usable on infiltrator, now they a more novelty than effective. You are doing yourself a disservice by equipping a sniper.

*A shooter without a good sniper is like a cake without frosting.




I decided to break out my black widow after not using it for a month.  Still killing mooks in one shot on platinum, 2 for shielded ones.  SI with maxed out power damage and power amp / gear can also take out most enemies with a jav / widow.  Nemesis / hunter / pyro and phantom unfortunately cannot be shield stripped no matter what your load out.

#107
Poison_Berrie

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Immortal Strife wrote...

Yes snipers are too weak but atleast they were usable on infiltrator, now they a more novelty than effective. You are doing yourself a disservice by equipping a sniper.

*A shooter without a good sniper is like a cake without frosting.

Yes but isn't the answer to that to improve the Rifles themselves?

#108
Immortal Strife

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Curzyfish wrote...

Immortal Strife wrote...

Yes snipers are too weak but atleast they were usable on infiltrator, now they a more novelty than effective. You are doing yourself a disservice by equipping a sniper.

*A shooter without a good sniper is like a cake without frosting.




I decided to break out my black widow after not using it for a month.  Still killing mooks in one shot on platinum, 2 for shielded ones.  SI with maxed out power damage and power amp / gear can also take out most enemies with a jav / widow.  Nemesis / hunter / pyro and phantom unfortunately cannot be shield stripped no matter what your load out.


The SI is the only character in the game that can still snipe effectively because of energy drain. And even then it's underwhelming.

Modifié par Immortal Strife, 08 août 2012 - 04:03 .


#109
rmccowen

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Immortal Strife wrote...

rmccowen wrote...

Immortal Strife wrote...

Yes snipers we're and are too weak but atleast they were usable on infiltrator, now they a more novelty than effective. You are doing yourself a disservice by equipping a sniper.

This is inane hyperbole. Please try again.


Go play platinum with a sniper and see how well you can handle phantoms.

This is called goalpost-shifting. You made a general statement about snipers, and when challenged you decided to change the context in a way that gives it a different meaning.

I don't play Platinum because I don't find it enjoyable. But I have no problem believing that snipers aren't useful on Platinum, because snipers aren't particularly useful on bosses in Gold or even Silver; bosses are taken down by sustained fire, which Infiltrators aren't particularly good at in general.  

I'm not anti nerf by any means, but let's face it ME3 is currently dominated by shotguns, auto fire weapons, and grenades. Accuracy is hardly rewarded anymore-TC sniper nerf and the removal of boss weak points- killed snipers.

The TC sniper nerf means that Infiltrators went from approximately 3x base damage with sniper rifles to about 2.5x base damage; they still have the single largest available damage bonus in the game. Snipers need a mild buff, but claiming that they're "more novelty than effective" is absurd on its face.

This game takes no skill to be good at all you have to do is hold down the trigger and throw grenades or cast powers.

That description is so vague that it applies to every shooter and RPG released in the last decade.

Modifié par rmccowen, 08 août 2012 - 04:05 .


#110
Volatile Device

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AbhijitSM wrote...

OP the numbers may mean nothing.
Number of buffs 220 > Number of nerfs 40
But....
Magnitude of nerfs 40 > Magnitude of buffs 220

Seriously whenever bioware has nerfed they seem to render some things totally useless.



#111
rmccowen

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Volatile Device wrote...

AbhijitSM wrote...

OP the numbers may mean nothing.
Number of buffs 220 > Number of nerfs 40
But....
Magnitude of nerfs 40 > Magnitude of buffs 220

Seriously whenever bioware has nerfed they seem to render some things totally useless.

Nothing in this game is totally useless.

And by claiming it is--or, even more foolishly, turning yourself into a slavish echo of someone else making that claim--you are making yourself, everyone who holds your position, the BSN community, and the ME3 playerbase as a whole look worse.

Modifié par rmccowen, 08 août 2012 - 04:07 .


#112
Gorguz

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AbhijitSM wrote...

OP the numbers may mean nothing.
Number of buffs 220 > Number of nerfs 40
But....
Magnitude of nerfs 40 > Magnitude of buffs 220

Seriously whenever bioware has nerfed they seem to render some things totally useless.

Sure. The nerf of two dlc weapon has ruined the game.
Improve your skills if you want to get tons of credits, and if you just want to have fun play bronze.

#113
Curzyfish

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Immortal Strife wrote...

Curzyfish wrote...

Immortal Strife wrote...

Yes snipers are too weak but atleast they were usable on infiltrator, now they a more novelty than effective. You are doing yourself a disservice by equipping a sniper.

*A shooter without a good sniper is like a cake without frosting.




I decided to break out my black widow after not using it for a month.  Still killing mooks in one shot on platinum, 2 for shielded ones.  SI with maxed out power damage and power amp / gear can also take out most enemies with a jav / widow.  Nemesis / hunter / pyro and phantom unfortunately cannot be shield stripped no matter what your load out.


The SI is the only character in the game that can still snipe effectively because of energy drain. And even then it's underwhelming.


I found no need for ED with the black widow or the indra.  But yes, it's pretty much essential for the widow or javelin.

#114
Warlock6500

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The heavier sniper rifles are actually MEANT for bosses. It is very hard to score a long range hit on a small target with the javelin but it's easy to hit a atlas or geth prime and since the damage is so high it is very effective especially with any debuff in effect. It's no secret that snipers are much less effective on platinum because on most maps the fighting degenerates into cqc very quickly. However, a skilled sniper can still be VERY effective on the larger maps like condor, giant, dagger and especially Rio.

#115
Immortal Strife

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My point is accuracy or actually targeting a weak point is not rewarding in ME3 MP. It's far more effective to unload bullets. Sniping requires some skill, even if it's only minute, the current dominating strategies do not. Look at my manifest, obviously I play a lot, I run U/U/Platinum everyday with a different character each time. And from my experiance I can safely say snipers are garbage now.

#116
Immortal Strife

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rmccowen wrote...

Volatile Device wrote...

AbhijitSM wrote...

OP the numbers may mean nothing.
Number of buffs 220 > Number of nerfs 40
But....
Magnitude of nerfs 40 > Magnitude of buffs 220

Seriously whenever bioware has nerfed they seem to render some things totally useless.

Nothing in this game is totally useless.

And by claiming it is--or, even more foolishly, turning yourself into a slavish echo of someone else making that claim--you are making yourself, everyone who holds your position, the BSN community, and the ME3 playerbase as a whole look worse.


Get off your high horse and stop insulting posters with your superiority complex.

#117
robarcool

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DHKany wrote...

It's funny especially with the krysae.
People demand to get a sniper rifle with AOE damage like ME1 or something.
They get it.
They cry OP and bioware nerf.
Then they cry that its a useless POS that can't do anything anymore.

/logic.

It is probably because the same people didn't cry for nerf. Fact is that the net result of BS threads at times is zero in terms of opinion.

#118
dysturbed0ne

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rmccowen wrote...

But the reduction in TC Evo 6 was entirely necessary. The higher that bonus is, the more difficult it is to balance snipers simultaneously on Infiltrators and on everyone else.


Yet the TC nerf was how long ago and the Indra is the only SR that has been buffed.

It's still nice, and you're ignoring the existence of the Harrier--and the real effectiveness of weapons like the Revenant and Phaeston.The Tempest and Hornet would like a word with you.


I didn't ignore the Harrier, but the constant need for ammo makes it really only useful on the Demoisher, it becomes more of a liability then a help on most classes. I have yet to see a SMG alone be effective on platinum, it is always a back-up to a power class or a stronger weapon. (save the Hurricane). The Revenant and Phaeston, on platinum, I can't say I have seen them much....I wonder why?

That distortion in the air over there is my Paladin-wielding GI queueing up behind the Tempest and Hornet.


The GI and his triple stacking damage buffs can make anything useful. That said, I can't recall ever seeing a pistol GI. I'm not saying they don't exist, I have just never seen it in the hundreds of matches I have played. I've seen a couple AR GI's, Hurricane GI's and of course sniper and shotgun. My guess would be the pistol is at the bottom of the GI "lets make this weapon OP" list.

People are pissed about the Piranha because they don't want their "I win" button taken away. There's no other explanation required.


It is far from a "i win button". That was the Krysae on an infiltrator, very low risk and very high reward. Except for an Atlas, you need to be up close and personal to get the full potential. Yea, if you stack amp+gear+mod+mod+ammo mod and stick it on a character that further amps up the damage it is powerful, but isn't that what the amps and gear are suppose to accomplish? The weapon should be judged as it stands without add-ons.

What's amusing to me here is the number of people on BSN who argue that nerfing weapons is unjustified because weapon classes are much better than casters, so nerfing weapons increases the overall difficulty of the game.

And your argument is that nerfing weapons is unjustified because casters are more powerful. I'm not making you responsible for other people's foolishness, but I do occasionally wonder what BSN must look like to Bioware.


Casters have huge damage potential, and their main benefit is they can accomplish this without ever really putting themselves at risk. While I may be melting this Atlas with my Piranha stading in the open the whole time, the AA  behind me BE'ing the s**t out the 2 primes and the 3 other mooks standing around them, only needing to pop out of cover twice, for a second.

Biotic teams trivialize platinum more than any weapon based team I have ever seen, except the GI which will always be god-mode when used correctly.

#119
BjornDaDwarf

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I'm going to quote this from belsbern's thread, where the buffs and nerfs to every weapon are organized and color coded.  Give a total picture of how weapon's have actually changed since the launch of the game.

Edit: Ah!  It didn't copy over the fancy color coding, going to try again.
Edit2: Aaaahhh!  Okay, I give up, I can't get the color coding to work, even when I do it by hand.  Check the link above and scroll down to see the list in a more readable form.

ZombieGambit wrote...

Here, OP. I reformated a bit to make it easier. Nerfs are in red, buffs in green.

Weapons Changes

Mattock Assault Rifle
- Damage increased from [76.1-95.2] to [83.7-104.7] (03/06)
- Damage increased from [83.7-104.7] to [94.2-117.8] (03/13)
- Damage increased from [94.2-117.8] to [103.6-129.5] (07/18)

Revenant Assault Rifle
- Damage increased from [47.6-59.6] to [52.9-66.2] (03/06)
- Damage increased from [52.9-66.2] to [57.9-71.2] (03/20)
- Damage increased from [57.9-71.2] to [63.6-79.5] (04/17)
- Spare Ammo increased from [300-375] to [360-480] (04/17)
- Encumbrance decreased from [2.0-1.4] to [1.8-1.25] (04/17)

Vindicator Assault Rifle
- Damage decreased from [68.6-85.8] to [62.4-78.0] (03/13)
- Encumbrance increased from [1.0-0.5] to [1.25-0.7] (03/13)
- Damage increased from [62.4-78.0] to [68.6-85.8] (07/18)

Phaeston Assault Rifle
- Damage increased from [29.7-37.2] to [34.7-42.2] (03/20)
- Damage increased from [34.7-42.2] to [38.1-47.6] (04/17)
- Spare Ammo increased from [300-375] to [350-450] (04/17)
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.5-0.9] to [1.35-0.8] (04/17)
- Damage increased from [38.1-47.6] to [41.9-52.4] (07/18)

Falcon Assault Rifle
- Increased refire time on the Falcon to 0.65 seconds (03/20)
- Decreased rate of fire from 125 to 50 (03/20)
- Decreased max spare ammo from [24-34] to [18-28] (03/20)
- Damage increased from [215.0-268.8] to [279.2-349.0] (03/27)

Geth Pulse Rifle
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.5-0.9] to [1.0-0.5] (03/27)
- Damage increased from [21.9-27.4] to [24.1-30.1] (04/17)
- Spare Ammo increased from [400-500] to [480-640] (04/17)

Saber Assault Rifle
- Damage increased from [350.1-437.6] to [389.0-486.2] (04/17)
- Spare Ammo increased from [40-50] to [40-56] (04/17)
- Damage increased from [389.0-486.2] to [427.9-534.8] (06/12)
- Encumbrance decreased from [2.0-1.4] to [1.7-1.4] (06/26)

Collector Assault Rifle
- Damage increased from [44.3-55.4] to [48.7-60.9] (04/17)
- Spare Ammo increased from [280-350] to [308-392] (04/17)
- Encumbrance decreased from [2.0-1.4] to [1.8-1.25] (04/17)
- Damage increased from [48.7-60.9] to [55.4-69.2] (07/04)
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.8-1.25] to [1.6-1.2] (07/04)

Harrier Assault Rifle
- Encumbrance increased from [1.75-1.0] to [1.75-1.25] (06/05)

N7 Typhoon Assault Rifle
- Distance Penetration decreased from 100cm to 25cm (07/24)
- Damage multiplier when fully ramped up decreased from [2.0x] to [1.5x] (07/31)

Prothean Particle Rifle
- Damage increased from [17.2-21.4] to [19.2-25.8] (07/31)

Black Widow Sniper Rifle
- Encumbrance decreased from [2.5-2.0] to [2.3-2.0] (06/26)

Incisor Sniper Rifle
- Damage increased from [67.8-84.8] to [74.6-93.3] (04/24)

Indra Sniper Rifle
- Damage increased from [54.1-67.6] to [62.6-78.2] (05/16)
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.25-0.7] to [1.0-0.7] (06/26)
- Damage increased from [62.6-78.2] to [72.6-92.2] (07/31)

Javelin Sniper Rifle
- Damage increased from [795.0-993.7] to [1030.5-1288.1] (03/27)
- Encumbrance increased from [2.5-2.0] to [3.0-2.4] (03/27)
- Max spare ammo decreased from [9-19] to [5-15] (03/27)
- Encumbrance decreased from [3.0-2.4] to [2.7-2.4] (06/26)

Krysae Sniper Rifle
- Damage decreased from [531.2-664.0] to [476.0-595.0] (06/12)
- Damage decreased from [476.0-595.0] to [429.0-548.0] (07/14)
- Rate of fire decreased from [50] to [35] (07/14)
- Recoil Increased from [5.0] to [10.0] (07/14)
- Zoom Recoil Increased from [3.0] to [5.0] (07/14)
- Total ammo dropped from [9-21] to [9-18] (07/14)

Viper Sniper Rifle
- Damage increased from [229.4-286.7] to [265.6-332.0] (06/21)
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.5-0.9] to [1.25-0.7] (06/21)

Carnifex Heavy Pistol
- Encumbrance increased from [0.75-0.35] to [1.0-0.5] (03/06)

Paladin Heavy Pistol
- Encumbrance increased from [0.75-0.35] to [1.0-0.5] (03/06)
- Encumbrance increased from [1.0-0.5] to [1.5-0.9] (03/27)
- Damage increased from [350.9-438.7] to [389.9-487.4] (03/27)
- Damage increased from [389.9-487.4] to [424.9-531.1] (04/17)
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.5-0.9] to [1.25-0.7] (04/17)
- Magazine Size decreased from 4 to 3 (04/17)
- Spare Ammo increased from [16-26] to [21-33] (04/17)

Talon Heavy Pistol
- Damage increased from [72.1-90.1] to [86.5-108.1] (03/27)
- Damage increased from [86.5-108.1] to [93.7-117.1] (04/17)
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.5-0.9] to [1.25-0.7] (04/17)
- Spare Ammo increased from [24-34] to [24-36] (04/17)
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.25-0.7] to [1.1-0.6] (06/12)

Arc Pistol
- Damage increased from [56.6-71.1] to [61.6-76.8] (04/17)
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.5-0.9] to [1.25-0.7] (04/17)
- Damage increased from [61.6-76.8] to [70.2-87.7] (05/02)
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.25-0.7] to [1.1-0.6] (05/02)
- Damage increased from [70.2-87.7] to [77.2-96.5] (06/21)

Eagle Heavy Pistol
- Damage increased from [60.9-76.1] to [67.0-83.8] (05/16)
- Damage increased from [67.0-83.8] to [74.9-93.7] (06/05)
- Clip size increased from 18 to 24 (06/05)
- Spare ammo increased from [180-225] to [192-240] (06/05)

Scorpion Pistol
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.5-0.9] to [1.1-0.6] (06/12)

Tempest SMG
- Damage increased from [35.7-44.6] to [41.1-53.5] (03/13)
- Damage increased from [41.1-53.5] to [47.5-59.4] (04/17)
- Spare Ammo increased from [350-437] to [400-500] (04/17)
- Encumbrance decreased from [0.75-0.35] to [0.65-0.3] (04/17)

Hurricane SMG
- Damage increased from [72.5-90.6] to [83.3-104.1] (04/17)
- Spare Ammo increased from [240-300] to [280-360] (04/17)
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.0-0.5] to [0.85-0.45] (04/17)
- Damage increased from [83.3-104.1] to [93.2-116.5] (04/24)
- Recoil reduced (04/24)
- Damage increased from [93.2-116.5] to [102.5-128.1] (05/16)

Geth SMG
- Damage increased from [13.9-17.4] to [16.1-20.1] (04/17)
- Spare Ammo increased from [500-625] to [600-800] (04/17)
- Encumbrance decreased from [0.75-0.35] to [0.65-0.3] (04/17)

Locust SMG
- Damage increased from [26.2-32.8] to [30.1-39.3] (03/13)
- Damage increased from [30.1-39.3] to [34.3-42.8] (04/17)
- Spare Ammo increased from [240-300] to [260-340] (04/17)
- Encumbrance decreased from [0.75-0.35] to [0.65-0.3] (04/17)

Hornet SMG
- Damage increased from [46.1-57.6] to [53.7-67.2] (04/17)
- Spare Ammo increased from [144-180] to [168-216] (04/17)
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.0-0.5] to [0.85-0.45] (04/17)

Shuriken SMG
- Damage increased from [29.3-36.6] to [33.6-42.1] (03/13)
- Damage increased from [33.6-42.1] to [38.7-48.3] (04/17)
- Spare Ammo increased from [324-405] to [360-468] (04/17)
- Encumbrance decreased from [0.5-0.2] to [0.45-0.2] (04/17)

Claymore Shotgun
- Damage increased from [152.8-191.0] to [167.8-206.0] (03/20)

Wraith Shotgun
- Damage increased from [83.1-103.9] to [89.5-111.9] (03/27)
- Spare Ammo increased from [10-20] to [18-28] (04/17)
- Damage increased from [89.5-111.9] to [102.3-127.8] (05/02)
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.5-0.9] to [1.2-0.9] (06/26)

Eviscerator Shotgun
- Damage increased from [60.0-74.9] to [64.6-80.7] (04/24)
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.5-0.9] to [1.25-0.7] (04/24)

Scimitar Shotgun
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.5-0.9] to [1.25-0.7] (04/24)

Reegar Carbine
- Encumbrance increased from [1.75-1.0] to [1.75-1.25] (06/12)

Crusader Shotgun
- Encumbrance decreased from [2.5-2.0] to [2.3-2.0] (06/26)

Piranha Shotgun
- Damage increased from [63.6-79.6] to [70.9-88.7] (07/18)


Modifié par BjornDaDwarf, 08 août 2012 - 04:31 .


#120
Immortal Strife

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My main issue with Piranha is the weight to power balance and how it renders the wraith obsolete.

#121
Zero 2362

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iplay222 wrote...

I've posted these statistics in several threads but nobody seems to take notice.

There have been around 220 buffs in this game.

And there have been roughly 40 nerfs.

Not only does that disprove the 'Constant nerfing' claims so many people make on these forums but it also means this:

Some of you also say that there are constant nerf threads 

Some of you tell Bioware to 'Stop listening to the community'

Put those 2 reasons together and think about this, Surely if Bioware had been listening to the community from the beginning (according to your logic), a hell of alot more guns should have been nerfed, because of these 2 reasons that you often give to enforce your own argument.

Well, when put with statistics, they contradict each other.

I understand that a single person who is against nerfing won't nessercerily agree with some of the statements that others who are against nerfing/balancing make, but for the sake of this argument, I'm putting different reasons that are given together.





While I agree there have been more buffs then nerfes there you should also point out the fact that most of the buffs are negligable compared to the nerfs and some of those buffs were on enemy units rather than underpowerd weapons

#122
UKStory135

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Immortal Strife wrote...

My main issue with Piranha is the weight to power balance and how it renders the wraith obsolete.


I'm the other way around, I think the weight on it is balanced by it's terrible accuracy.  It does hit a little too hard, though.  It shouldn't have been buffed, but taking anything more away from it is overkill.

#123
NobodyOwens

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Most of the guns are STILL unplayable, especially on higher difficulty levels, so comparing # of nerfs to # of buffs doesn't hold much water with me.

#124
Poison_Berrie

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UKStory135 wrote...

Immortal Strife wrote...

My main issue with Piranha is the weight to power balance and how it renders the wraith obsolete.


I'm the other way around, I think the weight on it is balanced by it's terrible accuracy.  It does hit a little too hard, though.  It shouldn't have been buffed, but taking anything more away from it is overkill.

That's the same though. For the weight it has it hits too hard.

#125
Grogimus

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Immortal Strife wrote...

I have two issues with nerfing: Over Nerfing destroys gun to unusable levels. And class Nerfing ****s up the whole game, example-TC got slammed and now snipers are god awful. A whole weapon class (snipers) became garbage with the snap of a finger.


Out of all the fine posts in this thread, I'll respond to this one....Four Infiltrators did a 10:09 Platinum run yesterday.  Yes, apparently 'snipers' are god awful.....

The whining and hyperbole on this forum is what's god awful.