264 réponses à ce sujet

[ZajoE38]

I on the other hand how can someone believe in IT. They all miss important details that totally debunks IT and make it very impossible. No matter how many followers IT does have, it's dead theory. Not valid. Period.

[LilLino]

ZajoE38 wrote...

I on the other hand how can someone believe in IT. They all miss important details that totally debunks IT and make it very impossible. No matter how many followers IT does have, it's dead theory. Not valid. Period.

Couldn't agree more.

[Mobius-Silent]

"Believe" in I.T? I don't think it deserves such a loaded and powerful term.

It is a unlikely interpretation of events as portrayed in the game, headcannon or fanfic if you prefer. Non of the so called "proof" stood up to any scrutiny and the E.C. confirmed _again_ that no such interpretation was even intended. On top of all that it is a terrible _terrible_ idea, its doesn't solve anything it just erases things some people didn't like while adding its own set of plot-problems. It is worse that the ending+EC in every possible way (And I and not a fan of the end of ME3). It's not "deep", it's not good storytelling and it doesn't solve anything.

"Believe"? There is nothing there to believe, I'm having a tough enough time with "tolerate"

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 14 août 2012 - 11:30 .

[Cobalt2113]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

"Believe" in I.T? I don't think it deserves such a loaded and powerful term.

It is a unlikely interpretation of events as portrayed in the game, headcannon or fanfic if you prefer. Non of the so called "proof" stood up to any scrutiny and the E.C. confirmed _again_ that no such interpretation was even intended. On top of all that it is a terrible _terrible_ idea, its doesn't solve anything it just erases things some people didn't like while adding its own set of plot-problems. It is worse that the ending+EC in every possible way (And I and not a fan of the end of ME3). It's not "deep", it's not good storytelling and it doesn't solve anything.

"Believe"? There is nothing there to believe, I'm having a tough enough time with "tolerate"

Yep, that pretty much sums it up for me.

[N7_Prothean95]

I.T is genius. I am willing to pay for it.

[ZajoE38]

You can only believe in IT. Because normal critical thinking people "will believe something AFTER they see it". Stupid people on the other hand has motto "to see something, FIRST I must believe". Assumptions and deductions, misinterpretation and ignorance. Believe in IT if you want, but it won't get you fairy tale come true. This delusional theory has nothing to do with the real ME plot and narration.

[Jassu1979]

What made the idea behind the IT so compelling was the notion that it could lead to a whole new ending without actually having to change anything about what we've seen previously: all you needed to do was continue the gameplay when Shepard wakes up, giving the series the ending it deserved.

It was also unbelievably meta-textual because it basically would have prompted the players to "fight indoctrination" by not revealing that what we saw was illusory straight away. Narration-wise, it would have been beyond spectacular - especially if the real ending had been in the wings all along, and Bioware only waited until sufficient players had completed the game in order to spring their surprise (for free, naturally, as we paid for a complete game).

They would have gone down in history as the company that provided the most innovative ending of all times.

Alas, it was not to be.

[JBPBRC]

Shoelesscomsonaut wrote...

Two major issues that always kept me from believing in IT.

1. The implication that there is a "correct" choice.

Look back at all the major decisions in Mass Effect: Rachni Queen, Council, Genophage, Quarians vs Geth. Each of those choices are meant to cause debate and discussion between the fans because there is no right choice. Each person has their own Shepard and their own story and all those decisions they made along the way were right for them because it was right for their Shepard. With IT, you either pick Destroy or you "lose".

Except there *are* correct choices. Its just about the only thing EMS is good for, giving us numerical figures for which choices are "better" in the name of fighting the Reapers. Saving the Collector Base? Better choice. A measly 10 points better, but better. Saving the Rachni is a better choice than Aralakh Company. And so forth.

Some choices are left open-ended because Mass Effect has always been just about that. The illusion of choice. You can diverge however you want, saving everyone in ME2 or killing almost everyone, but in the end there's always a correct choice. Bioware is simply being vague about the end choice because the game is still relatively new. Give it a few years, a couple of spinoffs and a novel or five, and the "true" ending of ME3 will come out sooner or later.

Much like Revan, another old Bioware posterboy.

2. It's not even an ending.

Let's say IT is true: You've picked Destroy and beat Reaper indoctrination!

...then Shepard wakes up in London and still has a galaxy full of Reapers. That's less resolution than the original ending. This is why I don't understand why people can believe in it. Were they expecting more dlc down the line to wrap things up (meaning you would have had to pay for an actual ending)?

I agree with every word here. How is waking up, severely wounded, with Harbinger (who single-handedly decimated your entire ground force) glaring at you now that his "indoctrination" has failed a better ending? Is the Normandy supposed to swoop in and save the day? By itself? From the daddy of all Reapers?

[ZajoE38]

No - application of IT would need to change all 3 games to the bone.

[ZajoE38]

And all this IT fanbase could well serve as psychology textbook examples. Crowd control, mass hysteria, dogma and backfire effect. It turn people into mindless husks unable to think on their own. "Don't think, join the masses and be cool"

[Jassu1979]

ZajoE38 wrote...

No - application of IT would need to change all 3 games to the bone.

How so and why? The third game messed up the canon pretty badly, and I'd say that IT might actually have helped to amend that - if only by removing the starkid as quasi-benevolent Reaper god trying to save the universe, and actually taking into account that Shepard has been in close proximity to indoctrinating reaper tech throughout the series.

[Jassu1979]

ZajoE38 wrote...
 "Don't think, join the masses and be cool"

I don'T believe that Bioware intended anything that even remotely resembles IT, but what you summarize here is the attitude it takes to swallow the endings we've actually been served.
(You know, because pointing out just how badly written and thematically inconsistent the endings are makes you an "entitled whiner" these days.)

[Hannah Montana]

IT is too advanced for Bioware to comprehend.

[estebanus]

ZajoE38 wrote...

I on the other hand how can someone believe in IT. They all miss important details that totally debunks IT and make it very impossible. No matter how many followers IT does have, it's dead theory. Not valid. Period.

Bioware disagrees. I think their opinions matter more than yours on the matter.

[estebanus]

ZajoE38 wrote...

And all this IT fanbase could well serve as psychology textbook examples. Crowd control, mass hysteria, dogma and backfire effect. It turn people into mindless husks unable to think on their own. "Don't think, join the masses and be cool"

Wow, reminds me of a lot of those people who hat ITers simply because it's cool to hate.

Your statements goes both ways.

Modifié par estebanus, 14 août 2012 - 12:02 .

[estebanus]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

"Believe"? There is nothing there to believe, I'm having a tough enough time with "tolerate"

Poor you. Did the ITers hurt you?

[Jassu1979]

What REALLY bugs me is that after establishing Indoctrination as the most insidious and powerful weapon in the Reapers' arsenal, no villain in the game even *tried* to brainwash Shepard. Would it have been too much to ask to include such a scene? It needn't even have anything to do with the IT. Make it similar to the dream sequence (but with more interactivity), or present it as a "dialogue fight". Just don't ignore the Reapers' best asset.

[Thaa_solon]

Hannah Montana wrote...

IT is too advanced for Bioware to comprehend.

They had no idea on what they unleshed upon the world...

[JBPBRC]

Jassu1979 wrote...

What REALLY bugs me is that after establishing Indoctrination as the most insidious and powerful weapon in the Reapers' arsenal, no villain in the game even *tried* to brainwash Shepard. Would it have been too much to ask to include such a scene? It needn't even have anything to do with the IT. Make it similar to the dream sequence (but with more interactivity), or present it as a "dialogue fight". Just don't ignore the Reapers' best asset.

That and the only ZOMGINDOCTRINATED people are characters who probably would've turned against us one way or the other. Saren? Already established as a cold-hearted bastard by Anderson even before meeting Sovereign. The Illusive Man? Ha! Udina? He was so disliked they made him side with Cerberus just to give us the option to shoot him.

Indoctrination should've been used the way Javik describes in his horror stories. Like refugees on the Citadel rising up and rebelling for their Reaper masters. Hell, even Anderson or a squadmate betraying you, against their will, because they spent one too many times hanging around Shepard and all that Reaper tech.

[ZajoE38]

No don't hate IT. I was a fan actually. But there was a moment like "wait, something is wrong here". Something forced me to question the theory and look for alternative explanations. To prove theory, first you must question it. Make it bulletproof. And IT all but bulletproof. And yes - ME would need to be rewritten in order to make IT valid. It ignores the whole ME narration and principles. Every, I repeat every single point that makes IT can be debunked with clear facts and totally cripple it. I don't came up with it.. it's just there, in the game, in the novels.

[Jassu1979]

JBPBRC wrote...

Indoctrination should've been used the way Javik describes in his horror stories. Like refugees on the Citadel rising up and rebelling for their Reaper masters. Hell, even Anderson or a squadmate betraying you, against their will, because they spent one too many times hanging around Shepard and all that Reaper tech.

Exactly! Or imagine how horrifying it'd be to have your ground team turn on you in the final mission: it would have upped the ante enormously, especially if you aren't a ruthless Renegade who's willing to kill friends and allies when they get in the way.

[JBPBRC]

Jassu1979 wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Indoctrination should've been used the way Javik describes in his horror stories. Like refugees on the Citadel rising up and rebelling for their Reaper masters. Hell, even Anderson or a squadmate betraying you, against their will, because they spent one too many times hanging around Shepard and all that Reaper tech.

Exactly! Or imagine how horrifying it'd be to have your ground team turn on you in the final mission: it would have upped the ante enormously, especially if you aren't a ruthless Renegade who's willing to kill friends and allies when they get in the way.

Great shot Tali! Man I'm so glad you have that shotg--why are you pointing that at me?

Modifié par JBPBRC, 14 août 2012 - 12:18 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Hannah Montana wrote...

IT is too advanced for Bioware to comprehend.

Hahahahaha.

[DonYourAviators]

BioWare aren't that clever.