264 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Goose]

If it was indoctrination, it was either badly presented, or ignoring basical rules of how indoctrination even works. Also, it leaves option for single-minded organic supremacist to escape Reapers trap without even thinking about it.

[AxStapleton]

ZajoE38 wrote...

What is stereotypical about knowing that humans tend to be superstitious? Speculating leads to blown head and misunderstanding. And about the ME3, after EC there is nothing to speculate. The book is closed. I just look forward to Leviathan DLC, I want to know moar about the Reaper history.

Tell me more, oh wise one.

Honestly, we're having fun doing this. Whether what we speculate is right or wrong is inconsequential.  We aren't ruining your fun. Besides, everything you've said is Grade A opinion. Nothing more than what we are doing.

[someone else]

OP - its not "impossible", its just not what BW wrote. The amount of critique and alternate reality building here is the best evidence that BW created the potential for a monumental, ground-breaking work of interactive fiction - but just wasn't up to the task.

But they don't really deserve condemnation - any more than you would a pack horse for not being an arabian....BW produced a good entertainment, some thrills, spills and chills - nothing more, wrapped up in loosely written sci-fi/fantasy overlay. If they failed at all, it was in meeting the fanbase's expectations - but after all, ME /= LotR; cH+mW-dK/=jrrT

As to what might have been, well...

[Gibb_Shepard]

someone else wrote...

 BW created the potential for a monumental, ground-breaking work of interactive fiction - but just wasn't up to the task.

This REALLY gets to me. People laud this hypothetical as if it would have been the biggest literary revolution since literacy was at it's inception. 

People, a damn "This was actually a dream" twist is NOT some kind of literary marvel. It is an overdone plot device that just so happens to be a bit better than the reality of the situation in ME3. Such an ending would warrant a "cool" verbal response.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 14 août 2012 - 02:45 .

[Hannah Montana]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...


I don't know anyone who supports IT and thinks Bioware is brilliant.
Maybe in the early days when everything was uncertain but now Bioware has shown to be just bad and they did a bad job with the trilogy.

Indoctrination is the headcanon of many of us and we do not believe Bioware to be competent enough to reach our level of thought.

At least you admit the IT is just a headcanon, or in other words: a fanon (fan-written canon, to fill up or replace the actual canon). Maybe you should tell that to all the hardcore IT supporters in the IT thread. They believe their IT is much more than just a simple fanon, or fan-fic.

Doesn't really matter.
What matters is that  Shepard been Indoctrinated covers all of the plot holes Bioware failed to cover rendering the story unenjoyable to people who like to think.
Obviously the obvious hints at Indoctrination throughout the game is pretty convincing, people should begin to realise Bioware was never capable of such a powerful and meaningful plot.
It was all just terrible writing.

[ZajoE38]

Wise? If you say so. I was just pointing the obvious. But never mind, let's drop it. I take it you are one the fine IT fans. You do it because it just pleases you. But there are many of those who don't even fully understand IT, neither the ME3 and yet they claim to judge that Bioware can't make a good game, etc.

[Hannah Montana]

Yakko77 wrote...

If I was indoctrinated then I wouldn't be able to chose Destroy. Also, the Prothian VI never identifies you as being indoctrinated yet the moment Kai Leng and other Cerberus troops walk into the room it immediately calls them out as being such.

You can choose Destroy because you have the will power remaining to choose it and deny the Reapers their victory over your mind.
You live to fight another day.
As I have proven before Prothean VI's can not detect sleeper agents, which is how the Protheans were betrayed because they could not detect them.
They can detect heavily indoctrinated folk like Saren and Kai leng and others.

Modifié par Hannah Montana, 14 août 2012 - 02:50 .

[Hannah Montana]

ZajoE38 wrote...

Wise? If you say so. I was just pointing the obvious. But never mind, let's drop it. I take it you are one the fine IT fans. You do it because it just pleases you. But there are many of those who don't even fully understand IT, neither the ME3 and yet they claim to judge that Bioware can't make a good game, etc.

Bioware can not continue a great story, it seems.
They should just stop at 1 and sometimes 2.

Modifié par Hannah Montana, 14 août 2012 - 02:53 .

[GethPrimeMKII]

Oh God this thread again. I'll never understand why people stick around these forums if they hate the game and the company that made it.

[KneeTheCap]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

someone else wrote...

 BW created the potential for a monumental, ground-breaking work of interactive fiction - but just wasn't up to the task.

This REALLY gets to me. People laud this hypothetical as if it would have been the biggest literary revolution since literacy was at it's inception. 

People, a damn "This was actually a dream" twist is NOT some kind of literary marvel. It is an overdone plot device that just so happens to be a bit better than the reality of the situation in ME3. Such an ending would warrant a "cool" verbal response.

Would it not, in this context (video game writing), be somewhat unique?

[The Heretic of Time]

Hannah Montana wrote...

As I have proven before Prothean VI's can not detect sleeper agents, which is how the Protheans were betrayed because they could not detect them.
They can detect heavily indoctrinated folk like Saren and Kai leng and others.

Wrong. Vigil on Ilos could detect Saren being a sleeper agent.

The prothean VI on Thessia could detect indoctrination within Kai Leng and the Cerberus troups. But the most important thing is that the VI on Ilos could detect Saren being a sleeper agent, so that basically proves you wrong. Shepard is not indoctrinated and he isn't a sleeper agent either.

[The Heretic of Time]

KneeTheCap wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

someone else wrote...

 BW created the potential for a monumental, ground-breaking work of interactive fiction - but just wasn't up to the task.

This REALLY gets to me. People laud this hypothetical as if it would have been the biggest literary revolution since literacy was at it's inception. 

People, a damn "This was actually a dream" twist is NOT some kind of literary marvel. It is an overdone plot device that just so happens to be a bit better than the reality of the situation in ME3. Such an ending would warrant a "cool" verbal response.

Would it not, in this context (video game writing), be somewhat unique?

No.

Even in video-games it has been done before. Even before video-games were considered to have "good" writing, it was already done.

[The Heretic of Time]

Hannah Montana wrote...

What matters is that  Shepard been Indoctrinated covers all of the plot holes Bioware failed to cover rendering the story unenjoyable to people who like to think.

No it doesn't. 

Obviously the obvious hints at Indoctrination throughout the game is pretty convincing, people should begin to realise Bioware was never capable of such a powerful and meaningful plot.
It was all just terrible writing.

There were no obvious hints at indoctrination in ME3 and the plot of ME3 is far from powerful. It's quite damn weak if you ask me.

[Hannah Montana]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

As I have proven before Prothean VI's can not detect sleeper agents, which is how the Protheans were betrayed because they could not detect them.
They can detect heavily indoctrinated folk like Saren and Kai leng and others.

Wrong. Vigil on Ilos could detect Saren being a sleeper agent.

The prothean VI on Thessia could detect indoctrination within Kai Leng and the Cerberus troups. But the most important thing is that the VI on Ilos could detect Saren being a sleeper agent, so that basically proves you wrong. Shepard is not indoctrinated and he isn't a sleeper agent either.

Saren was not a sleeper agent by that time you fool.
He was heavily augmented with Reaper tech and upgraded with it too much like Kai leng.

As I thought you can not even grasp the nature of Indoctrination.

Modifié par Hannah Montana, 14 août 2012 - 03:11 .

[Dark_Caduceus]

Because there isn't strong and consistent evidence from the story, and it's overly based on supposition. And even if it was true, it would be an example of bad writitng. Making a dissapointing ending, to a dissapointing game, and then retroactively fixing it, potentially, by making that ending an illusion isn't the pinnacle of videogame writing. It's gimmicky and indecisive.

You can tell Bioware doesn't really know what they're doing because they state that you can interpret the ending as it is, or try to jusify it being so terrible with IT.

This is compunded by the fact that in Geoff Keighley's "Final Hours" investigation it was revealed that "...the developers were considering at least one drastically different
ending that was eventually scrapped. The sequence would have seen the
player lose control of Commander Shepard, revealing that he or she had
actually been indoctrinated by the Reapers. This ending was eventually
cut for technical reasons, as the team was having a hard time making the
gameplay mechanic work alongside dialogue choices." -http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/5623/article/the-final-hours-of-mass-effect-3-sheds-light-on-controversial-ending/

This is why there appears to be allusions and foreshadowing of indoctrination - it was part of the game before Bioware decided to remove it. They said it themselves.

Please stop acting as though not buying into this poorly supported "theory" is somehow odd or illogical.

[Hannah Montana]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

What matters is that  Shepard been Indoctrinated covers all of the plot holes Bioware failed to cover rendering the story unenjoyable to people who like to think.

No it doesn't. 

Obviously the obvious hints at Indoctrination throughout the game is pretty convincing, people should begin to realise Bioware was never capable of such a powerful and meaningful plot.
It was all just terrible writing.

There were no obvious hints at indoctrination in ME3 and the plot of ME3 is far from powerful. It's quite damn weak if you ask me.

There were "hints"
-The Rachni thoughts on what happened to them how it was similar.
-The kid and how retarded he is and how the Reapers take the form of him to guide shepard, not to mention the growl after shepard is distracted.

And all the scenes running up to the finale. 
Why are you telling me the plot of Mass effect is far from powerful?

[someone else]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

someone else wrote...

 BW created the potential for a monumental, ground-breaking work of interactive fiction - but just wasn't up to the task.

This REALLY gets to me. People laud this hypothetical as if it would have been the biggest literary revolution since literacy was at it's inception. 

People, a damn "This was actually a dream" twist is NOT some kind of literary marvel. It is an overdone plot device that just so happens to be a bit better than the reality of the situation in ME3. Such an ending would warrant a "cool" verbal response.

It would help you a great deal if you would actually read, instead of responding to your own preconceptions.   My point has nothing to do with IT or any other particular theory - BW's handling of the series climax (ME3 in its entirety) was superficial, inartful and clumsy - quite apart from its ending, player choice was heavily discounted or completely ignored in most cases, plot holes opened and/or ignored on a wholesale basis, options railroaded, cutscenes greatly expanded at the expense of dialog scenes.   Hub world experience was reduced to endless and mostly boring tasks on the Citadel exceeded in ennui only by the fetch quests.

What BW missed was the opportunity to build on sense of spaciousness, wonder and moral and emotional dilemmas posed by ME1, the complexity of relationships created in ME2 - had BW successfully woven these threads into a game driven by player choice leading to a destiny shaped by the character of the protagonist - essentially delivering on the promise of truly interactive fiction, theater that breaks the fourth wall in radical fashion -  that would imvho been a ground-breaking achievement indeed.   

What BW did, as i said, was give a good entertainment - much of the dialog of ME3 is wonderful, the gameplay much improved, BW proved it can still write a great episode or two (Rannoch, Tuchanka) and MP is tops among my current time-wasters...

...so take a breath, fella.

Modifié par someone else, 14 août 2012 - 03:18 .

[Hannah Montana]

 This is what explaining it to non IT people is like www.youtube.com/watch

[The Heretic of Time]

Hannah Montana wrote...

 This is what explaining it to non IT people is like www.youtube.com/watch

Nah, that's what showing an ITer that his theory is flawed is like.

[Jassu1979]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Wrong. Vigil on Ilos could detect Saren being a sleeper agent.

By the time Saren reached Ilos, Nazara had "upgraded" him to the point where he could easily serve as a meat puppet for the Reaper.
He even talks about all of the implants he received after Shepard placed the seed of doubt in him on Virmire, and how his reservations have been purged by this operation.

That's not exactly what I'd call a "sleeper agent".

[The Heretic of Time]

Hannah Montana wrote...

Why are you telling me the plot of Mass effect is far from powerful?

Because I don't find a story that contradicts itself and uses a poorly-executed McGuffin and a Deus Ex Machina as the main plot points all that powerful, sorry.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 14 août 2012 - 03:27 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Wrong. Vigil on Ilos could detect Saren being a sleeper agent.

By the time Saren reached Ilos, Nazara had "upgraded" him to the point where he could easily serve as a meat puppet for the Reaper.
He even talks about all of the implants he received after Shepard placed the seed of doubt in him on Virmire, and how his reservations have been purged by this operation.

That's not exactly what I'd call a "sleeper agent".

You might not call it a sleeper agent, but Vigil does. I take Vigil's word over yours, as Vigil is a character within the Mass Effect universe created by the Mass Effect writers and you're just a fan. I'm sure Vigil knows best.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 14 août 2012 - 03:26 .

[Hannah Montana]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

Why are you telling me the plot of Mass effect is far from powerful?

Because I don't find a story that contradicts itself and uses a poorly-executed McGuffin and a Deus Ex Machina as the main plot points all that powerfu, sorry.

Why are you telling me?

[The Heretic of Time]

Hannah Montana wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

Why are you telling me the plot of Mass effect is far from powerful?

Because I don't find a story that contradicts itself and uses a poorly-executed McGuffin and a Deus Ex Machina as the main plot points all that powerfu, sorry.

Why are you telling me?

Because you said Mass Effect 3 has a powerful plot. I'm merely pointing out it didn't impress me the slightest bit. It's not that powerful.

[Hannah Montana]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Wrong. Vigil on Ilos could detect Saren being a sleeper agent.

By the time Saren reached Ilos, Nazara had "upgraded" him to the point where he could easily serve as a meat puppet for the Reaper.
He even talks about all of the implants he received after Shepard placed the seed of doubt in him on Virmire, and how his reservations have been purged by this operation.

That's not exactly what I'd call a "sleeper agent".

You might not call it a sleeper agent, but Vigil does. I take Vigil's word over yours, as Vigil is a character within the Mass Effect universe created by the Mass Effect writers and you're just a fan. I'm sure Vigil knows best.

TIM said he was not indoctrinated, did your shepard take his word? No he did not.
Saren was far from a sleeper agent, his sleeper agent days ended the day he was upgraded perhaps a bit earlier. 

Modifié par Hannah Montana, 14 août 2012 - 03:29 .