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[The Heretic of Time]

Hannah Montana wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

As I have proven before Prothean VI's can not detect sleeper agents, which is how the Protheans were betrayed because they could not detect them.
They can detect heavily indoctrinated folk like Saren and Kai leng and others.

Wrong. Vigil on Ilos could detect Saren being a sleeper agent.

The prothean VI on Thessia could detect indoctrination within Kai Leng and the Cerberus troups. But the most important thing is that the VI on Ilos could detect Saren being a sleeper agent, so that basically proves you wrong. Shepard is not indoctrinated and he isn't a sleeper agent either.

Saren was not a sleeper agent by that time you fool.
He was heavily augmented with Reaper tech and upgraded with it too much like Kai leng.

As I thought you can not even grasp the nature of Indoctrination.

Vigil said that Saren was a sleeper agent. I'm sure VIgil knows it better than you.

I grasp the nature of indoctrination perfeclty fine, possibly better than you. Shepard does not show signs of being indoctrinated. Not in ME1, not in ME2 and not in ME3 either.

[comrade gando]

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

It's barely even a foreshadowed theory and more of an excuse for fans who didn't like the ending to just nullify that it even happened,

If the IT was true then would mean that the climax of the trilogy was a complete waste of time.

Id rather it be a false ending than bioware being serious about that retarded ass ending

[Jassu1979]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

someone else wrote...

 BW created the potential for a monumental, ground-breaking work of interactive fiction - but just wasn't up to the task.

This REALLY gets to me. People laud this hypothetical as if it would have been the biggest literary revolution since literacy was at it's inception. 

People, a damn "This was actually a dream" twist is NOT some kind of literary marvel. It is an overdone plot device that just so happens to be a bit better than the reality of the situation in ME3. Such an ending would warrant a "cool" verbal response.

What would have made ME3's handling of this angle unique was the fact that the "dream" would have been presented as the real ending at first, with the "clues" being subtle enough to escape casual notice.

You don't need to re-invent the wheel in order to make something unusual. Placing all of the players in the situation of the potential indoctrination victim to the point where they are unable to tell dream from reality adds a layer of meta-textuality to the game that would have made it pretty much unique.
There are many ways of using the "only a dream"-angle poorly, I agree.

But getting rid of the bad ending by giving it a new purpose (as an allegorical battle for Shepard's soul that culminates in a real, fitting ending for the trilogy) would not have fallen into that category. Especially if it HAD been planned all along, and all the flaws had in fact been clues rather than just bad writing/coding.

[Hannah Montana]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

Why are you telling me the plot of Mass effect is far from powerful?

Because I don't find a story that contradicts itself and uses a poorly-executed McGuffin and a Deus Ex Machina as the main plot points all that powerfu, sorry.

Why are you telling me?

Because you said Mass Effect 3 has a powerful plot. I'm merely pointing out it didn't impress me the slightest bit. It's not that powerful.

people should begin to realise Bioware was never capable of such a powerful and meaningful plot.
It was all just terrible writing.

It looks like I didn't say that and you just made stuff up.

This is you www.youtube.com/watch

[The Heretic of Time]

Hannah Montana wrote...

TIM said he was not indoctrinated, did your shepard take his word? No he did not.

If you don't understand the clear and obvious difference between TIM and Vigil than I don't think we should continue this discussion.

Saren was far from a sleeper agent, his sleeper agent days ended the day he was upgraded perhaps a bit earlier. 

Says you, a fan. Vigil, a character in the game, says otherwise.

[The Heretic of Time]

Hannah Montana wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

Why are you telling me the plot of Mass effect is far from powerful?

Because I don't find a story that contradicts itself and uses a poorly-executed McGuffin and a Deus Ex Machina as the main plot points all that powerfu, sorry.

Why are you telling me?

Because you said Mass Effect 3 has a powerful plot. I'm merely pointing out it didn't impress me the slightest bit. It's not that powerful.

people should begin to realise Bioware was never capable of such a powerful and meaningful plot.
It was all just terrible writing.

It looks like I didn't say that and you just made stuff up.

This is you www.youtube.com/watch

It was clear that you were being sarcastic.

And petty insults and posting the same stupid video over and over again is not going to strengthen your weak arguments.

[Jassu1979]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

You might not call it a sleeper agent, but Vigil does. I take Vigil's word over yours, as Vigil is a character within the Mass Effect universe created by the Mass Effect writers and you're just a fan. I'm sure Vigil knows best.

Are you for real?

The only thing this demonstrates is that the writer of that dialogue line did not know what a sleeper agent is.

In all fairness, Saren might have qualified as a sleeper agent because he worked several years towards the Reapers' goals without blowing his cover, and had infiltrated the Citadel by virtue of being in a position of almost unassailable authority to begin with. But Vigil did not know that. All he saw was a heavily "reaperized" thrall with lots of cybernetic implants that could even be detected y the naked eye, his own will and personality all but eradicated by Indoctrination after he betrayed signs of doubt.)

[Hannah Montana]

My opinion is always right and try to make other people realize the truth.
It looks like you're hopeless and I can not guide you on the right path.

Modifié par Hannah Montana, 14 août 2012 - 03:37 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Hannah Montana wrote...

My opinion is always right and try to make other people realize the truth.
It looks like you're hopeless and I can not guide you on the right path.

lol what?

[Hannah Montana]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

My opinion is always right and try to make other people realize the truth.
It looks like you're hopeless and I can not guide you on the right path.

lol what?

I was joking.



I don't try, I force them.

[The Heretic of Time]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

You might not call it a sleeper agent, but Vigil does. I take Vigil's word over yours, as Vigil is a character within the Mass Effect universe created by the Mass Effect writers and you're just a fan. I'm sure Vigil knows best.

Are you for real?

The only thing this demonstrates is that the writer of that dialogue line did not know what a sleeper agent is.

Ah sure, so NOW that it suits you, you want to blame it on the writer? So I guess the bad writing argument is super dumb, unless it suits you?

In all fairness, Saren might have qualified as a sleeper agent because he worked several years towards the Reapers' goals without blowing his cover, and had infiltrated the Citadel by virtue of being in a position of almost unassailable authority to begin with. But Vigil did not know that. All he saw was a heavily "reaperized" thrall with lots of cybernetic implants that could even be detected y the naked eye, his own will and personality all but eradicated by Indoctrination after he betrayed signs of doubt.)

Saren was never a heavily reaperized thrall, as Saren obviously still had control over his own mind. His own mind was valuable, which is why Sovereign never took full control over it until the very final battle when Saren becomes robo-Saren.

And how do you know that the way Saren looks isn't the way how he always looked? The council didn't seem bothered by Saren's apperance. Nilus didn't seem the be bothered by Saren's apperance either. Even Anderson didn't seem to notice anything odd about Saren.

If you look at the cover of Mass Effect Revelation, a prequel to ME1, you see Saren exactly as he looks in ME1. Could this mean that Saren always looked like this, even before he actually found Sovereign?

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 14 août 2012 - 03:49 .

[Hannah Montana]

Haha you know nothing of Indoctrination you're like a fish out of water, flapping around in your lack of understanding.
Which is ironic.

[Jassu1979]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Ah sure, so NOW that it suits you, you want to blame it on the writer? So I guess the bad writing argument is super dumb, unless it suits you?

Eh? Are you sure you aren't confusing me with some other person here?

Saren was  never a heavily reaperized thrall, as Saren obviously still had control over his own mind. His own mind was valuable, which is why Sovereign never took full control over it until the very final battle when Saren becomes robo-Saren.

And how does he become robo-Saren, if not through the implants he received after the Virmire debacle?
He had retained sufficient control to shoot himself, but not much else.

And how do you know that the way Saren looks isn't the way how he always looked? The council didn't seem bothered by Saren's apperance. Nilus didn't seem the be bothered by Saren's apperance either. Even Anderson didn't seem to notice anything odd about Saren.

If you look at the cover of Mass Effect Revelation, a prequel to ME1, you see Saren exactly as he looks in ME1. Could this mean that Saren always looked like this, even before he actually found Sovereign?

I suppose the cover artist simply wanted people to be able to immediately identify the character.
As for Saren's appearance being the same throughout the game, without anyone noticing: *shrugs*
Perhaps the creators did not want to bother with an extra character model back then. There's a "making of"-video on youtube containing all sorts of concept art (including a considerably older Saren), and the designers pretty much state that his cybernetic implants are supposed to signify the reaper influence.

[The Heretic of Time]

Jassu1979 wrote...

And how does he become robo-Saren, if not through the implants he received after the Virmire debacle?
He had retained sufficient control to shoot himself, but not much else.

I'm not denying Saren was implanted. But the implants must be on the inside and aren't that obvious. Saren always looked the way he looks in ME1. He did so in Mass Effect Revelation (look at the cover) and he did so during Mass Effect Evolution too (read the comic).

And Saren isn't a mindless thrall. His mind was still his own, he was still himself, not just a Sovereign puppet, like the collector general was to Harbinger. Saren still had control over his thoughts, enough to realize that what he was doing was wrong.


Anyway, we're going sideways here. What we were originally discussing is whether prothean VI's could detect sleeper agents. I say yes, because Saren is a sleeper agent and he was detected by Vigil.

I suppose the cover artist simply wanted people to be able to immediately identify the character.

So I take it that the artist of the Mass Effect Evolution comic also simply drew Saren in exactly the same way simply because he wanted us to be able to immediatly indentify the character? Doesn't seem like a compelling argument to me. Your argument could hold water if Mass Effect Evolution didn't exist. Sadly for you it does and sadly for you it depicts good old Saren exactly as we know him from ME1. 

As for Saren's appearance being the same throughout the game, without anyone noticing: *shrugs*
Perhaps the creators did not want to bother with an extra character model back then. There's a "making of"-video on youtube containing all sorts of concept art (including a considerably older Saren), and the designers pretty much state that his cybernetic implants are supposed to signify the reaper influence.

I have the making-of DVD from ME1. I also have the Art of the Mass Effect Universe book containing all the concept art for Saren. I can't remember the designers ever saying anything about the cybernetic parts of Saren supposed to signify the reaper influence. It wouldn't make sense either, because why would Saren have these cybernetics waaaaaaay before he even knew about Sovereign?

The only thing the art book says about Saren is that they wanted him to look creepy and different from other turians, which is why they gave him a different face-design and a bunch of cybernetics.

[Master Xanthan]

KneeTheCap wrote...

 I'm quite curious about that, to be honest. If you don't believe in it, why so? Is it that hard to believe that video game writing can be that in-depth? Or do you have a another reason?

Video game industry is still young, but the writing has risen from "The princess is in another castle", is it not? Why are we still regarding books and movies for instance, as superior? Are they truly? Just look at Planescape: Torment and tell me that it's not up to par with any book?

I'm not trying to provoke anyone, nor start any fights. I'm just genuinely curious that why you think IT is impossible?

And while we're at it, please don't fight. We are all in the same boat here, as bioware fans. Try to behave as such, okay?

It just seems unlikely, its been months since ME3 has been out, and Bioware never said the IT was true. Plus if IT was true, that means only one ending would be valid, which wouldn't be a good idea. 

[Dr JaMiN]

Master Xanthan wrote...

KneeTheCap wrote...

 I'm quite curious about that, to be honest. If you don't believe in it, why so? Is it that hard to believe that video game writing can be that in-depth? Or do you have a another reason?

Video game industry is still young, but the writing has risen from "The princess is in another castle", is it not? Why are we still regarding books and movies for instance, as superior? Are they truly? Just look at Planescape: Torment and tell me that it's not up to par with any book?

I'm not trying to provoke anyone, nor start any fights. I'm just genuinely curious that why you think IT is impossible?

And while we're at it, please don't fight. We are all in the same boat here, as bioware fans. Try to behave as such, okay?

It just seems unlikely, its been months since ME3 has been out, and Bioware never said the IT was true. Plus if IT was true, that means only one ending would be valid, which wouldn't be a good idea. 

Actually, if Bioware wishes to continue the series, they MUST choose a single canon ending. Control, Synthesis, and Refuse all change the universe too dramatically, making any new conflict pretty much impossible. This can be supported by the breath scene only existing in the Destroy ending. Although they haven't said IT is true, they have said that it is a valid interpretation. There is plenty of lore backed evidence to support IT, so it's really not that farfetched. Right now, no one has a definitive answer for the ending, so we'll just have to wait for the final DLC.

[The Heretic of Time]

Basically, if BioWare said the IT is true and do something with it, they'd ****** off roughly 3/4th of their fanbase (e.g. all the people who chose control, synthesis or refuse). I doubt BioWare wants to ****** off that many people.

[Apocaleepse360]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Basically, if BioWare said the IT is true and do something with it, they'd ****** off roughly 3/4th of their fanbase (e.g. all the people who chose control, synthesis or refuse). I doubt BioWare wants to ****** off that many people.

Not to mention that having a "true ending" DLC is just a disgusting business strategy that would depressingly work.

[Dr JaMiN]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Basically, if BioWare said the IT is true and do something with it, they'd ****** off roughly 3/4th of their fanbase (e.g. all the people who chose control, synthesis or refuse). I doubt BioWare wants to ****** off that many people.

Frankly, most people either hate the ending or feel it is subpar with the rest of the series, so much of the fan base would probably prefer an indoctrination reveal instead of what we have now. If a better written, logical, and satifactory ending would ****** off Control/Synthesis fans, then that would just prove indoctrination even more.

[Ithurael]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Basically, if BioWare said the IT is true and do something with it, they'd ****** off roughly 3/4th of their fanbase (e.g. all the people who chose control, synthesis or refuse). I doubt BioWare wants to ****** off that many people.

That is an odd figure to throw out there? How do you know 25% of the fanbase is with IT?

I can theorize that RGB choosers - like myself - would like to see an alternate ending like IT (anything other than RGB and starkid being real) but we keep to RGB at face value because Bioware decided to move in that direction with EC and the announcement by Chris stating there will be no more post-ending DLC.

And, personally, I do think the IT as a hallucination is false. The "IT Con" theory that Twilight God thought up was rather nice and very applicable to the endings. But the IT Hallucination theory is at best wishful thinking powered by speculations and at worst fan-fiction. In the end it will come down to what your headcanon tells you.

[Mobius-Silent]

Dr JaMiN wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Basically, if BioWare said the IT is true and do something with it, they'd ****** off roughly 3/4th of their fanbase (e.g. all the people who chose control, synthesis or refuse). I doubt BioWare wants to ****** off that many people.

Frankly, most people either hate the ending or feel it is subpar with the rest of the series, so much of the fan base would probably prefer an indoctrination reveal instead of what we have now. If a better written, logical, and satifactory ending would ****** off Control/Synthesis fans, then that would just prove indoctrination even more.

Of those who don't like the ME3 ending (myself included) I think there are a significant portion who only viewed I.T. as a way to get a different ending, not as a meritorious idea in-itself.

I do not think the support for I.T. is in any way substantial... thankfully.

[Brother Takka]

What make me laugh about this topic, is that people are jumping on the IT sucks, and the IT is the future posts. Everyone seems to be completely missing the point of the thread. The OP asked why we find IT so hard to believe. Not I have an idea, lets force are opinions on other people. All I see here are people telling each other what to think. Why not just see why people don't believe instead of beating each other with the opinion stick.

[ediskrad327]

for the same reason you don't believe on my personal fan fiction. BECAUSE IT WAS NOT MADE BY BIOWARE and it is not canon

[The Heretic of Time]

Ithurael wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Basically, if BioWare said the IT is true and do something with it, they'd ****** off roughly 3/4th of their fanbase (e.g. all the people who chose control, synthesis or refuse). I doubt BioWare wants to ****** off that many people.

That is an odd figure to throw out there? How do you know 25% of the fanbase is with IT?

I can theorize that RGB choosers - like myself - would like to see an alternate ending like IT (anything other than RGB and starkid being real) but we keep to RGB at face value because Bioware decided to move in that direction with EC and the announcement by Chris stating there will be no more post-ending DLC.

And, personally, I do think the IT as a hallucination is false. The "IT Con" theory that Twilight God thought up was rather nice and very applicable to the endings. But the IT Hallucination theory is at best wishful thinking powered by speculations and at worst fan-fiction. In the end it will come down to what your headcanon tells you.

What is "IT Con" ?

And I'm not saying 25% of BSN is an IT believer. I think it's even less. I'm saying that roughly 25% of BSN is a Destroy chooser, based on the fact that there are 4 different endings, so if each ending had an equal amount of support, that means each ending has about 25% of the BSN supporting it.

I know those numbers are not 100% accurate, but it's just an estimate.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 14 août 2012 - 05:28 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Dr JaMiN wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Basically, if BioWare said the IT is true and do something with it, they'd ****** off roughly 3/4th of their fanbase (e.g. all the people who chose control, synthesis or refuse). I doubt BioWare wants to ****** off that many people.

Frankly, most people either hate the ending or feel it is subpar with the rest of the series, so much of the fan base would probably prefer an indoctrination reveal instead of what we have now. If a better written, logical, and satifactory ending would ****** off Control/Synthesis fans, then that would just prove indoctrination even more.

And how would that prove indoctrination even more? The only people I see being indoctrinated here are the IT believers.