275 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

Granted I didn't read your whole post because I'm short on time, but in those first two instances what the Chantry folk are saying is that the Templar Order's job is to protect and control mages, but they will fight to protect innocents from the darkspawn and the Qunari if they're needed.
They'd be hypocrites for talking about the Maker's love and forgiveness and then saying "We do have a bunch of warriors handy to save you, it's true. But that's not in their job description. Best of luck with not dying!"

If they used their Templars as an army to invade the Deep Roads and take over the lyrium trade or some nonsense like that, I could see where you're coming from. But I feel those two examples above actually show them to be non-hypocrites. At least in that matter. 

[The Hierophant]

1) I'm not seeing an issue with your first example.

2) Gameplay and story segregation.

3) I doubt the templars know about Elder Oak's existance, and would have probably launched an Exalted March on Brecilian Forest if they knew.
4) That dialogue occurs when requesting the aid of the mages, and not the templars.

5) The mechanics of the templars abilities are unknown to us players, but calling it magic when a person with no magical ability could use it adds doubt to your assertion.

6) Maybe or maybe not, the codex doesn't explain in detail the ritual needed to create the Harrowing. All we know is that a demon is placed into a mage.

7) Connor gave himself to the demon out of need/desire. Nothing of what Irving says would prevent a person from doing so when the need arises. The only way to prevent possession it seems is if all mages in question have the willpower/mental resistance of Charles Atlas, and are immaculate like the virgin Mary.

8) I thought the Litany was a rare artifact? Plus it didn't stop Niall from getting killed by a demon.

9) Aside from Leliana, I doubt the Chantry officials know the full history of their faithful. Plus that blood mage in question recently helped to slaughter innocent mages, so the thought of her joining the Chantry instead of running to Tevinter is laughable.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 08 août 2012 - 07:20 .

[MisterJB]

The level of intelligence in this post is just astounding.

1-Those two templars just said that, while their first duty is to protect the Chantry and pursue unsactioned magic, they will protect the common man if need arises like a darkspawn/qunari invasion.
And you think that is bad? You just gave an example of how the templars protect the innocent.

2- You do realize Lothering is overflowing with refugees, right? Do you think that it would be easy to find refuge, food and medicine for all? That the wealth of the Chantry is kept in Lothering, a backwater town or that it was easy to transport large quantities of money through a land in civil war?
Yeah, these arguments are getting more ridiculous by the second.

3-Because a living tree is just that. It's a tree that can punch you, any soldier with an axe could bring it down.
A possessed mage combines the magical powers of the demon with that of the mage. We're talking about Storm of the Century, Walking Bomb, Mind Control, Cone of Cold, Fireball etc, etc, etc. They are much, much more dangerous than a possessed tree.

4-What? Did you want the templars to just leave the mages unguarded so they could all escape?
And even so, the emissary sent to the Warden's Camp tells us how many templars volunteered to fight alongside the mages in the Warden's Army. You can see a few in the Battle of Denerim,

5-Yeah and the Grey Warden's use Darkspawn blood. So?
The templar's magic only affects mages, not common people.

6-They want to test the mage's abilities to fight demons and resist their offers. Of course, they are going to use demons for this purposes.
The Harrowing happens in a controlled environment with templars ready to strike should anything go awry. It's crude but it makes sense. They are not doing it for kicks.

7-Connor allowed the demon to control him from the Fade. Only thanks to this was he saved, even Irving admits this in the screenshot you posted.
And before he was saved, he killed dozens and dozens of people thus proving how dangerous abominations are.

8-Tasers can incapacitate attackers. Maybe we should just give everyone in the world one and abolish the prison system.
Wait, no, that would be stupid. Because in a real attack there are far too many factors to take into account that can prevent a person from helping himself.
Also, the litany protects ONLY against mind domination. Mages are dangerous for much more reasons than just that.

9-That could be because blood mages can boil your blood inside you, control you mind, etc.

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 août 2012 - 07:21 .

[thats1evildude]

The Chantry is all damn hippo-crites!

Modifié par thats1evildude, 08 août 2012 - 09:25 .

[Xilizhra]

5-Yeah and the Grey Warden's use Darkspawn blood. So?
The templar's magic only affects mages, not common people.

Actually incorrect. Holy Smite works on everyone.

6-They want to test the mage's abilities to fight demons and resist their offers. Of course, they are going to use demons for this purposes.
The Harrowing happens in a controlled environment with templars ready to strike should anything go awry. It's crude but it makes sense. They are not doing it for kicks.

It could, however, be far safer.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Actually incorrect. Holy Smite works on everyone.

I blame that on gameplay. Alistair makes it clear templars abilities disrupt spells and dispells mana which are useless against mundanes.
It is entirely possible Alistair just wasn't aware of an high level ability like Holy Smite but I think it more likely this is a gameplay/lore segregation much like how you can become a Reaver without drinking the blood of a dragon.

It could, however, be far safer.

For the apprentice, sure.
I don't particularly support the Harrowing. As it stands, it seems like an unnacessarely cruel, do or die test.
But calling it a Templar/Demon conspiracy like Nixaris does is just nonsense.

[Xilizhra]

I blame that on gameplay. Alistair makes it clear templars abilities disrupt spells and dispells mana which are useless against mundanes.
It is entirely possible Alistair just wasn't aware of an high level ability like Holy Smite but I think it more likely this is a gameplay/lore segregation much like how you can become a Reaver without drinking the blood of a dragon.

In DA2, Hawke gets dragon blood somewhere on the black market to become a reaver. I suspect the gameplay and story segregation is on DAO's side because they hadn't thought of Holy Smite yet.

For the apprentice, sure.
I don't particularly support the Harrowing. As it stands, it seems like an unnacessarely cruel, do or die test.
But calling it a Templar/Demon conspiracy like Nixaris does is just nonsense.

It is, however, a deliberate demon summoning ritual.

[brushyourteeth]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The Chantry having an army is the same like the Chruch having an army...in fact the Church did have an army and they are called The Order Of Knight Templar in real history who involve in the Crusades...but just compare with today real world, can you imagine the churches at your place are guarded by armed force? What do you think of it?

Imagine the church can drag you or your family member from your home in front of your family accusing you or your family member a witch, heretic, infidel, blasphemy...and so on...then burn at the stake? It happen in medieval time, not today...but imagine it happen today...

The Church have army is making them a mafia, whoever mess with them, face the sword..gun..canon...whatever, when they feel their faith is challenged, face the Crusade...That is the real Knight Templar, the army of Roman Catholic Church in history.

In the game, it is the same..

Church ---> Chantry
Knight Templar ----> Templar
Exalted March ----> Crusade
Right of Annulment ---> right to execute the accused heretic, blasphemous person, infidel, witch...ect

Now who is the Mage represent? Compare it with real history of Knight Templar...

I absolutely have a BIG problem with someone, anyone, except David Gaider himself, saying that the real-life Christian church is the exact same thing as the Chantry or that perfect parallels and comparisons can be made.

First of all, it's unfair to judge the Chantry (which is a fictional establishment for a fantasy video game) by historical mistakes (or what we view to be mistakes, which is subjective and will change from person to person) made by a real-life religious establishment.

Second of all, it's equally unfair to judge the real-life Christian church by the actions of the Chantry, which again, is fictional and intended to be controversial.

They're not the same thing. Try to make them so and you risk sounding both dumb and offensive. And you have a high chance of succeeding.

I'm rarely harsh here on the BSN, but it needed saying.

[LolaLei]

Brushyourteeth: It's not worth trying to debate with the OP, you'll end up going in circles repeating yourself and he/she will only disregard your right to an opinion anyway. Best to ignore the posters threads completely for your own sanity... I can't work out if he/she is a troll or not.

Modifié par LolaLei, 09 août 2012 - 03:02 .

[Dave of Canada]

brushyourteeth wrote...

They're not the same thing. Try to make them so and you risk sounding both dumb and offensive. And you have a high chance of succeeding.

Don't bother, the original poster keeps making insane analogies to try and prove her points.

[dragonflight288]

But she can bring up interesting points, whether you agree with them or not, Nizaris does, when she isn't making real world comparisons, use in-game evidence to support her arguments. She does have credibility to her arguments.

Like Jowan having a book on summoning spirits, or at least contacting them. He tells us in the jail that he knows nothing of summoning demons, but Connor talks about stealing a book from Jowan that helped him make contact with a desire demon, or the desire demon to make contact with him, and even provided the screenshot of Connor saying it from the game.

As Connor could barely cast basic spells (as said by Jowan) it's most likely that he attracted the Desire Demon by virtue of his potential political power by being the son of a powerful arl (Gaider says a mages power, and not just magical power, attracts demons,) chances are the demon made contact with him. But Connor wouldn't have been able to without that book.

[ShadowLordXII]

Of course the Chantry are hypocrites

They use blood magic (phylacteries) to keep track of mages, abuse their power without any system of repercussion or counterbalance, possess an army of brainwashed...I mean devoted warriors addicted lyrium that enhances their own magic (Gaider confirmed this I believe) to counter mages and demons, preach about justice and peace while allowing elves to live in poverty, discrimination, and oppression.

But when you're the dominant power in the land, whose honestly going to say anything to you? Or even try to do differently? Not just militarily, but through their influence on the people of Ferelden. The only reason that the mages would stand a chance in the current war is because the Chantry itself is divided within itself.

[Reznore57]

I don't see a problem with the templars being the chantry army....
And i don't have a problem with them protecting their faith.
That's the whole point.
Mages used to hold power , people rebelled , the chantry rose , put a leash on the mages and then they ruled....So what?

Last time i checked history is made by winners mostly ...specially when it comes to power struggle.
History have proven that mages in power is a pretty bad thing for "common" people ...
I'd argue that since chantry is in power , things have slightly improved.
Sure it isn't perfect , sometimes they go nuts on an exalted march or burn down a circle.
But i don't know if people have read the history of Kirkwall during the Imperium , but that was a happy festival of bloodbath...The story behind the Bone Pit is awful too.

We'll see what the mage rebellion bring...it may be great and improve things ...if mages learned from their captivity in a constructive ways.
Or it may be the beginning of a whole new reign of terror.
Nobody knows.

As far as real world event , there's been mistakes from pretty much everybody , some people win , some people lose , some faith rise for a time , then suffer a downfall...

Mostly poor people suffered , while those in power fought for whatever reasons.
I wouldn't concider the mages as poor casualty of history....
They are an elite , they 're just having a bad time .
Elves on the other hand are pretty much the one who lost it all and may never recover.

[CelestJP]

Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them.
the chantry has become decadant and corrupt mad with their own infulence I doubt they even truely serve the wishes of Andraste and the maker anyway the chant of light merely seems an excuse to spread their propeganda

Modifié par CelestJP, 09 août 2012 - 08:54 .

[Reznore57]

CelestJP wrote...

Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them.

Sure.But usually it takes a long time for the "masses " to learn.
Chances are mistakes are gonna be repeated by some ....it's always the case , people want things to stay the same , or want things to be like before when everything used to be "fine".(fine for them of course ^^)

There are some mages who will want to go back to the good old days of the Imperium .
That's a guarantee.
Same with templars /chantry who will refuse to make any compromise.

And there's some others who will want things to change and get better .People from the chantry and the mages .

We 'll see who's gonna win .

edit : About the hipocrisy of the Chantry ,I don't deny it.
But is it important?
Most faith are like that , love your neighbor but kill the heathen.
At least Mages during the Imperium were pretty open about butchering and enslaving everybody.
That two different type of propaganda really , one when you scared people into submission , the other were you numb people into a sense of safety.
At least , some verse of the chant put a light on moral ground of not kill , not steal etc , for all its hipocrisy , that's usualy a good way to give to people the idea of "human rights" .
Things are never all black and white .

I'm not a big fan of organised religion myself , but they did help us to understand that human life mattered and needed some rule to protect it . While obviously killing tons of people in the process....

Modifié par Reznore57, 09 août 2012 - 09:17 .

[CelestJP]

It's easy to claim saintly intentions when no one can question your intent without being branded a heretic the chantry claims this and that and offers no real proof of that matter history is written by the winner for all we know the Chantry history is nothing but a lie written to influence the gullible masses religion may bring hope to people but Ultimately it's a Tool of Control and you have to be naive not to see it our own history has certainly shown the corruptive influence of religious power

the truth is that religion offers no proof of anything i could write a book and proclaim my self a prophet as long as i get enough followers don't get me wrong I'm not a Atheist I merely don't believe in religion as a institution of man history has merely showed us that religion is excuse for the human race to be extremely crappy to etc other in the name of some god or other

If there is a God or even Goddess he/she/it would not need homage as a proof of faith you can't be Omnipresence and not know every single being you created as well as your self it defies the very definition the maker would be the same if the maker truly needed to hear the chant of light to know as a proof of faith then he/she/it is not Omnipresence or even all powerful

[Ausstig]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The Chantry having an army is the same like the Chruch having an army...in fact the Church did have an army and they are called The Order Of Knight Templar in real history who involve in the Crusades...but just compare with today real world, can you imagine the churches at your place are guarded by armed force? What do you think of it?

Imagine the church can drag you or your family member from your home in front of your family accusing you or your family member a witch, heretic, infidel, blasphemy...and so on...then burn at the stake? It happen in medieval time, not today...but imagine it happen today...

The Church have army is making them a mafia, whoever mess with them, face the sword..gun..canon...whatever, when they feel their faith is challenged, face the Crusade...That is the real Knight Templar, the army of Roman Catholic Church in history.

In the game, it is the same..

Church ---> Chantry
Knight Templar ----> Templar
Exalted March ----> Crusade
Right of Annulment ---> right to execute the accused heretic, blasphemous person, infidel, witch...ect

Now who is the Mage represent? Compare it with real history of Knight Templar...

WRONG!!!!!

Gather around people and learn of real history, not common verson

The Poor Fellow-soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon, aka the Knights Templar, were not in fact the Churches army, THEY WERE ANSERABLE ONLY to the POPE, as apossed to most knights who owed their alleigence to a Lord and then a King the Knights Templar were set up to protect pilgrams and the Holy Lands. They were an independent order, they neither recived nor took orders from the Pope,  that relied upon donations of land and money to surive, which it did get a lot of. The Order had it's own leaders, money and land. In fact aside from he Pope as their ultimate athourity, as he was for all Catholic nations at the time, all they had in common with the church was that they were men who took vows of Poverty, Chastity and ovedience. 

Sorry if I came off as agressive I enjoy correcting popular mis conceptions of history. For example did you know that the Inqusition created the notion of inoccent until proven gultiy AND stoped witch burnings in Europe by placing the burden of proof on the prosocution. ( bet no one expected that:lol:

[Reznore57]

Faith doesnt need proof .That's what faith is all about.

Some people may think some text ,tree, cave, wall ... are sacred , and some people might think it's just some really old things that some people waste their time on.

Wether Andraste ashes are miraculous or not is absolutely irrelevant.
Like Lourdes , is it a place of miracle or not? Who cares? That's not the point .
It 's just there to help reinforce the faith , people don't need to see a miracle , they just need to believe in miracle.
That's a big difference.

And again The tevinter Imperium is important because it's the only time human mages ruled and were free on a big scale.
Does that mean Thedas will again fall into this?No.
It means mages are able to rule as they see fit for centuries , just because of their power.
They don't need to build propaganda for years , they just have the power to.
And that's a scary thought .
That's why a form of templars are needed , I'm not talking about the chantry here , I'm talking about ways for "normal" people to defend themselves against magic.

The question is If mages rules again , will they allow magic to be policed?
And not just by themselves?

[CelestJP]

Blindly following one's faith is not devotion it's being ignorant even Liliana questions her own faith she's not a blind sheep even if DA 2 tried very hard to make us believe that

that recon is actually one of my least favorite ones I prefered harden liliana to the chantry stooge and right hand of the Oppressor erm i mean Divine sadly Solona will most likely end up having to blow her up in the end if she keeps her DA 2 personality oh well they say love don't last forever ..... but loved ones sure burn brightly .....

Modifié par CelestJP, 09 août 2012 - 10:23 .

[Reznore57]

If you suddenly lose all your faith because Andraste ashes didn't cure that little boo boo on your knee....I'd said you never really believe in the first place.

People shouldn't forget religion ain't all about gods and miracle , they're mostly here to help human get throught their life , their mind at "peace".
It gives moral advice (do not kill etc...) it gives the idea (usually) that life has meaning and is fair (the bad people will end up in hell) etc...

Usually faith crisis comes because something bad happens to you and you feel your prayers ain't answer anymore.
Suddenly life has no sense again ,and you start questionning.

The fact that relics ain't really miraculous , or a prophet never existed is minor as long as the believers doesn't need to question his/her faith.

Science would have kill faith long time ago if it was all about the hard and cold facts.