275 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

What? She was obviously because racist, did you even bother to read the last page? Her whole tirades against western society, hatred of americans and such tends to add up after she's been doing it for months now.

That strikes me as more cultural posturing than racism, per se. Whether or not it's motivated by racism, I'm not sure.

[LolaLei]

Dave of Canada wrote...

What? She was obviously because racist, did you even bother to read the last page? Her whole tirades against western society, hatred of americans and such tends to add up after she's been doing it for months now.

I hadn't notice her doing it prior to this thread, but I'm not what you'd call the most observant person lol. Just report her if it's getting too much. Racism of any kind shouldn't be tolerated.

[MisterJB]

You claimed that Westerners are arrogant and ignorant. And then said that because of that, it is not a wonder Anders blew up the Chantry.

The question must be asked again. How are the attitudes of Anders and the Chantry related to that of real life Westerners? In which way did our "ignorance" and "arrogance" influence Anders to destroy the Chantry?

Yes, I know you believe the Chantry is hypocrite and there can be no compromise. That is not the question here. Read the questions I asked very well and think before you respond.

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 août 2012 - 02:26 .

[LolaLei]

No compromise in real life regarding what exactly?

[LolaLei]

I think comparing any religion or real life situation with an in-game situation/event will undoubtedly bring some degree of trouble, whether the similarities are striking or not. But I think people have more of a problem with you bashing other cultures/beliefs etc than the actual comparisons themselves.

[LolaLei]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

No need for bringing RL things that are cause for discussion, that do not concern the game.

Especially as we have no idea how events within the Dragon Age world are going to unfold yet.

Modifié par LolaLei, 13 août 2012 - 03:10 .

[LolaLei]

Filament wrote...

But the comparison goes hand in hand with the anti-westerners ranting, because the assumptions underpinning the comparison are anti-westerner themselves, and questioning said assumptions is what led to this segue into directly bashing westerners to begin with.

So no, it's not just a clumsy and flawed comparison, it's also needlessly inflammatory.

I didn't mean her comparison specifically. I've seen the religion/Chantry theory pop up in threads before and was done in a way that wasn't insulting/derogatory, that's what I meant... I should have explained it better, (go easy on me it's 4:16am here lol). But yeah, her insults and attacks surrounding her specific comparisons are inexcusable. I'm amazed this thread hasn't been locked yet.

[brushyourteeth]

LolaLei wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

No need for bringing RL things that are cause for discussion, that do not concern the game.

Especially as we have no idea how events within the Dragon Age world are going to unfold yet.

TRUTH. Andraste could turn out to be the Archdemon's transgendered half-reptile wet-nurse and it wouldn't reflect on real-life Christianity in any way.

OP has strongly implied that the Chantry is hypocritical because she perceives Christianity as hypocritical, and that the mage/Templar conflict is akin to the 13th century Muslims being oppressed by the Catholic church. When asked to stop, the reply has been basically you westerners are ignorant and don't listen.

Uh, what? We just want to talk about DRAGON AGE.

But to try to put things on-topic....

In DA:O, you can use the Litany of Adralla to interrupt blood magic mind domination and try to stop mages from being possessed, right? Then Lambert has it also in the Asunder novel. Is there more than one Litany of Adralla? If more can be made, why can't practically everybody have a copy? Seems like it'd be a huge problem-solver for the blood magic situation. I don't think it ends possession, but it at least breaks the enchantment blood mages can hold over others' minds.

I want one. Not to borrow - to keep.

[LolaLei]

"Andraste could turn out to be the Archdemon's transgendered half-reptile wet-nurse and it wouldn't reflect on real-life Christianity in any way." - LOL! I'd totally buy that game!

Modifié par LolaLei, 13 août 2012 - 04:14 .

[Rinshikai10]

LOL good one brushyourteeth, getting back more to the topic. "Magic exist to serve man and never to rule over him" we hear the chantry use this phrase as a guideline on magic. However, could it be that they my have broken this idea.

We know that Tevinter is more open with magic then the chantry. Believing that magic must serve the greater good, and this can only be done with Mages ruling. Were as the chantry believes that Mages can never have power because they fear it. Could it be said that the fear of magic the Chantry has created has resulted in it indirectly ruling rather then serving?

[TEWR]

brushyourteeth wrote...

In DA:O, you can use the Litany of Adralla to interrupt blood magic mind domination and try to stop mages from being possessed, right? Then Lambert has it also in the Asunder novel. Is there more than one Litany of Adralla? If more can be made, why can't practically everybody have a copy? Seems like it'd be a huge problem-solver for the blood magic situation. I don't think it ends possession, but it at least breaks the enchantment blood mages can hold over others' minds.

I've suggested the same thing be done in my arguments for reforms to the Circle system.

[brushyourteeth]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

LOL good one brushyourteeth, getting back more to the topic. "Magic exist to serve man and never to rule over him" we hear the chantry use this phrase as a guideline on magic. However, could it be that they my have broken this idea.

We know that Tevinter is more open with magic then the chantry. Believing that magic must serve the greater good, and this can only be done with Mages ruling. Were as the chantry believes that Mages can never have power because they fear it. Could it be said that the fear of magic the Chantry has created has resulted in it indirectly ruling rather then serving?

WOW! That's a really interesting point, because I'm not sure if this is what you're intending, but it makes me realize that practically all of Andrastian culture revolves around mages. Policing mages, finger-wagging at mages, hunting down extra mages, educating people about the dangers of mages. Yet they actually serve little good in that society. Sure, they might get to help if there's a Blight or a really terrible war. They might be allowed to try to heal someone important if nothing else is working. Otherwise, they're not allowed to do anything useful that could conceivably be done by any other means (I'm thinking of how at Ostagar the mages weren't even allowed to magically light the beacon - two Grey Wardens had to be spared because the Chantry Mother wouldn't hear if it).

My interpretation of that Chant verse has always been that it refers mostly to blood magic mind domination and the idea that a mage shouldn't use his/her powers to control others (which, duh - those rules should apply to anyone). What IS hypocritical about the Chantry is that they ignore the first part of that verse and fixate on the rest of it - "Magic exists to serve man."

It doesn't say "magic exists to vex man" or "magic exists to tempt man" or even "magic exists to destroy man." The Chant upholds magic as a gift. One that's intended to be used with care, definitely. But not ignored or suppressed or villainized.

But back to the underlined part -- can you imagine what kind of world Thedas would be if the Chantry spent less time obsessing over mages and more time spreading the Chant like the Maker wanted and taking care of the "least" of those they're supposed to serve? Just wow!

[LolaLei]

Think of the technical advances they'd make as well!

[Rinshikai10]

I have to give credit to this article I found

http://greywardens.c...agic/#idc-cover

[brushyourteeth]

Lolalei wrote...
Think of the technical advances they'd make as well!

Maybe they'd actually have gun powder by now! Maybe the Fereldans would have dental care?!  

Rinshikai10 wrote...

I have to give credit to this article I found

http://greywardens.c...agic/#idc-cover

Okay, so I read that and it was interesting, but I have to say you did a better job in just a few sentences of explaining their point than they actually did.

[Spicen]

Every time we argue about the mages/templars a baby nug dies.
 Save the nugs, stop arguing!!!

[dragonflight288]

Spicen wrote...

Every time we argue about the mages/templars a baby nug dies.
 Save the nugs, stop arguing!!!

Think of Smoofles, Leliana's pet Nug that I got her from dust town!

[Spicen]

You mean the OP is a SHE. I mean WOW i never thought.....u know that a woman likes argument. Anyway im impressed

Modifié par Spicen, 13 août 2012 - 06:44 .

[ObserverStatus]

 Yes, the OP is right, the Chantry certainly is made up of hypocrites, mostly because of their complete and utter disregard for the true word of the Maker. Allow me to give a few examples.

1. Andraste taught us that magic is meant to serve man, not to rule over him.  So why does the Chantry allow so many mages to refuse to work?  Most mages seen in Dragon Age are kept locked away in towers, doing magic tricks and reading books, how are they doing man any good that way?  The only mages who are doing any good for the common man are the tranquil, who work tirelessly to craft magical goods for working folk, but there aren't enough of them, are there?  No, because of the Chantry's stubborn refusal to tranquilize all mages, magical goods are a luxury only accessible to a privileged few.  The Maker never meant for this!  Every family deserves to have enchanted goods in their home, and for magical items to become affordable, their must be more tranquil.


2. Another example of the Chantry's hypocrisy is its co-operation with the so called "Grey Wardens".  In addition to allowing mages to roam free, wasting their lives and performing blood magic rather than enchanting sandals for decent folk, they also have the audacity to meddle in the Maker's sacred plans to punish us for desecrating the heavens!  True believers would gladly accept an eternal blight in exchange for the Maker's favor, but not these blasphemers!  The darkspawn are merely a test of our faith, and if Chantry continues to allow these wardens to perform blood magic in an effort to fight against the will of the maker, we will never be forgiven.


3.  Much as how the darkspawn are here to punish us for defiling heaven, demons are here to punish us for allowing mages to go untranquilized.  Why else would the Maker allow the tranquil to be unaffected?  And yet, the Chantry devotes a prepostorously large portion of its resources toward combatting the beings it has deemed abominations.   If the Chantry truly cared about the word of the maker, it would do its job of winning back every soul it can for the maker, and allow the abominations to do their job; to punish lazy mages.


The Chantry has already lost the favor of the Maker, and if they are ever to win it back, they must end their policy of appeasing Grey Wardens and Mages.  Already, the Maker has sent the blessed abomination Anders to execute the faithless Grand Cleric Elthina, and to send his Chantry a message that he will tolerate their complacency no longer.  The Chantry is supposed to teach Thedas's people to love the Maker, but if they are to fail in their task, the Maker will have to make them fear him instead.

Modifié par bobobo878, 13 août 2012 - 07:53 .