275 réponses à ce sujet

[CelestJP]

who's to say its really andraste's ashes if you have oghren with you in the party he think its just magic related and not ashes related at all it could be anyone's ashes they are merely infused with Lyrium related powers there nothing Holy about them

[LolaLei]

Nizaris1 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
I absolutely have a BIG problem with someone, anyone, except David Gaider himself, saying that the real-life Christian church is the exact same thing as the Chantry or that perfect parallels and comparisons can be made.

Even today, the Pope still have his own army, The Swiss Guard, who will protect the Church, Vatican. No other religion in this world have own army. And where do you guys think they got their money to pay this army? Surely not from charity.

Similar in the game, The Chantry controlling lyrium trade with the dwarves, that's where they got their money to support their Templars.

In history, The Order of Knight Templar of Roman Catholic Church was not poor, they are very rich..how they become rich? By controlling the nobles. The nobles of Europe have debts with them. Soon they got their own estates, they become the most powerful organization in Europe. They who control who become the King, controlling the noble affair and so on...

Similar with in the game...the Templar who support new Viscount. No one can be a Viscount without Templar support.

Want me to dig out further...?

Want me to report you?

Listen Nizaris, you're entitled to your opinions regarding your Church = Chantry theory, BUT, you would do well to be a little more respectful surrounding other peoples beliefs whilst on this forum. There are thousands of BSN users who believe in religion and have faith in the Church etc. You have deeply offended Brushyourteeth and she has asked you to be respectful, yet in the above quoted post you continue to goad her. Pack it in.

Start being more considerate and think before you type, or you run the risk of getting banned from the forum.

[Ausstig]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

WRONG!!!!!

Gather around people and learn of real history, not common verson

The Poor Fellow-soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon, aka the Knights Templar, were not in fact the Churches army, THEY WERE ANSERABLE ONLY to the POPE, as apossed to most knights who owed their alleigence to a Lord and then a King the Knights Templar were set up to protect pilgrams and the Holy Lands. They were an independent order, they neither recived nor took orders from the Pope,  that relied upon donations of land and money to surive, which it did get a lot of. The Order had it's own leaders, money and land. In fact aside from he Pope as their ultimate athourity, as he was for all Catholic nations at the time, all they had in common with the church was that they were men who took vows of Poverty, Chastity and ovedience. 

Sorry if I came off as agressive I enjoy correcting popular mis conceptions of history. For example did you know that the Inqusition created the notion of inoccent until proven gultiy AND stoped witch burnings in Europe by placing the burden of proof on the prosocution. ( bet no one expected that:lol:

They are not poor, they are the first who create banking cheque system, they own estaes in Europe. Look at their armor and weapons, they are elite soldiers of the Pope. They wear the best armor and the best weapon of Europe. They do not only protetcting pilgrims in the Holy Land, they play politic as well.

The Pope is not only religious leader in Europe back then, the Pope can excomunicated any European kings who do not recognized the Church. The excomunicated kings can be dethroned and the Pope will elect new King who friendly with the Church.

"Inquisition" is torturing the accuse until they admit they are guilty. The Templar themselves going through Inquisition and Templar records themselves prove the tortures they all going through in making them admit spitting on the Cross, practice sodomy and Satanism. The Inquisition of the Templar is by request of King of France because he cannot stand it anymore on how the Templar hold the neck of the Nobles.

And do you know the relationship between Knight Templar and Iluminati? Later the whole descendence of King of France are murdered in the riot in revenge of Jaques d Molay, the Templar Grandmaster during Inquisition, death

During the Inquisition, the Templar no longer significant because the Muslim under Saladin have recaptured Jerusalem, the templar role on protecting the pilgrim is no more, the Templar themsleves lost much to the Muslims, they are no longer the backbone of western army in Middle East, so the nobles of Europe didn't see the Templar significance and no longer want to be in debt with them

Ever wonder why the Templar have to run away in hiding? It is because the nobles of Europe want to get away from the debt, they all want to kill the Templars. The only one who take refuge of Templar was the King of Scotland.

1.That was their name. I am aware of everything the did and did not do

2. The Inqusition used tortuer FAR LESS then most courts, they mostly just locked people in a room until they came back with a sin to confess. There exceptions but these are politcaly motivated, as in France 

3. The reason the Templars got 'destoryed' was because the king of France wanted their land and to not have to pay his bills, he is the only one who really weant after them, most other kings did nothing, then the Templars went off to MAYBE save the Scottish army with a well timed charge, or founded  the Swiss nation, look at the flag. Yes it was after the fall of last stronghold in the Holyland, not Jerusalem, as that happened before the THIRD Crusade. 

4. There is no conection between the Templars and the Iluminati, it is just cracpot nosense, like how them and Stone Masions run the world or some such. 

5. on the Pope,  I don't get what you are saying. In the mid ages God was reguarded as the suprem Authority and the Pope was his representative on Earth, how is just a religious leader? I said every nation in Europe had the Pope as their boss, thus the Templars could not be considered 'the churches' army. 

[Xilizhra]

Want me to report you?

Listen Nizaris, you're entitled to your
opinions regarding your Church = Chantry theory, BUT, you would do well
to be a little more respectful surrounding other peoples beliefs whilst
on this forum. There are thousands of BSN users who believe in religion
and have faith in the Church etc. You have deeply offended
Brushyourteeth and she has asked you to be respectful, yet in the above
quoted post you continue to goad her. Pack it in.

Start being more considerate and think before you type, or you run the risk of getting banned from the forum.

Is Nizaris being factually incorrect, though? I'm not sure if the Swiss Guard qualifies as an "army," per se, and probably isn't much like the SS-esque templars, but it is a body of armed forces under the direct control of the titular head of a rather large religion.

I suspect the Chantry was mostly derived from a more medieval iteration of the Catholic Church, but the inspiration is most definitely there.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 09 août 2012 - 02:17 .

[General User]

The Swiss Guards are a ceremonial and security force for Vatican City (a sovereign city-state) and personal bodyguard for the Pope. Armed they may be, but they are a police force and diplomatic security corps, not a military. They are an armed force under the Pope in much the same way the US Secret Service is an armed force under the President.

Now, there are countries that do have an actual police force whose sole purpose is to enforce religious law, the Mutaween of Saudi Arabia are a good example.

Modifié par General User, 09 août 2012 - 02:34 .

[LolaLei]

Xilizhra wrote...

Want me to report you?

Listen Nizaris, you're entitled to your
opinions regarding your Church = Chantry theory, BUT, you would do well
to be a little more respectful surrounding other peoples beliefs whilst
on this forum. There are thousands of BSN users who believe in religion
and have faith in the Church etc. You have deeply offended
Brushyourteeth and she has asked you to be respectful, yet in the above
quoted post you continue to goad her. Pack it in.

Start being more considerate and think before you type, or you run the risk of getting banned from the forum.

Is Nizaris being factually incorrect, though? I'm not sure if the Swiss Guard qualifies as an "army," per se, and probably isn't much like the SS-esque templars, but it is a body of armed forces under the direct control of the titular head of a rather large religion.

I suspect the Chantry was mostly derived from a more medieval iteration of the Catholic Church, but the inspiration is most definitely there.

Honestly, I'm not bothered since I'm not religious. But regardless of whether she's factually correct or not, she needs to be careful how she words her posts because it's upsetting people. By all means she can voice her opinions, but it would be nice if she would show a little decorum when doing so.

[LolaLei]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Lolalei wrote...
Want me to report you?

Report me if you want, no one will stop you, you don't even need to tell me about that.

if you want to play this black mail bull****, go ahead, i am not threatened

It's hardly blackmail dear, I'm simply asking you to consider other peoples feelings when you make controversial posts. And I don't appreciate you upsetting my friend.

[LolaLei]

Nizaris1 wrote...

LolaLei wrote...
It's hardly blackmail dear, I'm simply asking you to consider other peoples feelings when you make controversial posts. And I don't appreciate you upsetting my friend.

Not controversy and not my problem

Then I sincerely hope you're banned from this forum.

[LolaLei]

Nizaris1 wrote...

LolaLei wrote...
Then I sincerely hope you're banned from this forum.

Don't loose hope then, and good luck

Thanks trollmeister! Love you too!

[General User]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Those are Saudi Religious Police, established by Saudi Arab government.

Correct.  And as religous police, their job is to enforce religous doctrine and orthodoxy.

BTW, do the Templars enforce orthodoxy?  Or are they more or less strictly concerned with magic and mages?

Nizaris1 wrote...

In Islam we don't have such thing, We don't have "organized Church", meaning in Islamic world there is no such organization that control every Muslim who practice Islam. We don't even have a "Pope".

Depends.  Iran is famous for it's Islamic clerical hierarchy with that nation's Supreme Leader at it's head.

Nizaris1 wrote...

So what Saudi Arab is doing is what Saudi Arab is doing, have no relation at all with religion

They certainly don't see it that way.  Nor do those unfortunate enough to run afoul of them.

Nizaris1 wrote...

and no relation at all will all Muslim, and all Muslim countries.

Most all Islamic countries have their own version of the Mutaween.  The Saudi version is just famous for being among the strictest.

Nizaris1 wrote...

Different than Christian who have an organized Church, the Vatican, the Pope, who control all churches activities, missionaries, priests, exorcism, and everything related to Christianity.

That hasn't been true since the Great Schism in 1054 AD and wasn't strictly true before that either.

Nizaris1 wrote...

Swiss guard is army of Pope, the Church, Vatican.

Swiss Guards are a security force, not an army. 

If you're looking to make an analogy to an armed force that is both military and religous in nature but makes frequent forays into secular politics, then Iran's Revolutionary Guards are a good option.

Modifié par General User, 09 août 2012 - 04:12 .

[The Hierophant]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Still Christian have organized Chruch, who control what and what in Christianity. Whoever want to become a priest must recognized by Vatican. Missionaries activies, masses, Christian are organized.

This is rubbish, stop ignoring General user's post about the Great Schism. Your post is the equivalent of calling all Sunnis Shi'a. Most of the sects of christianity don't recognize the Pope's/Catholic Church's authority and vice versa.

[General User]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Templar role in DA is the same like Knight Templar in medieval Europe, not Swiss Guard

Not them either.  Ausstig was right, The Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon, or Knights Templar of history, were an militant monastic order charged with protecting pilgrims going to and from the Holy Land and were active in the defense of the Crusader States.  Though endorsed by the Pope, they did not function as the military arm of the medieval Catholic Church in the way the Templar Order of Thedas (prior to the end of DAII) did for the Chantry of Andraste.

Nizaris1 wrote...

My country don't have it. We have religious officers, but they are not police, they must work under secular way, i mean they must work with the actual police. Let say they want to rush someone home who is reported to have adulterous activities, they must go to police, make a warrant, they must with police going to that person home, with the police and police warrant to search. They have no power to apprehend/arrest anyone, but the state police. AND if turnout to be false report, or they doing something against the law, they can be sued in the court

Like I said, most every Islamic country has its own version of a religious police force.  By your own description, your country has a police force that enforces religious law in addition to secular.  For the most part that's a case of "six of one, half a dozen of the other."

Nizaris1 wrote...

Still Christian have organized Chruch, who control what and what in Christianity. Whoever want to become a priest must recognized by Vatican. Missionaries activies, masses...Christian are organized.

Muslims don't have such. The one who become Ulama' are recognized by the people, not some organization. Only official Imams maybe recognized by government, but anyone can be imam in Islam.

Islam is organized too, just in a different way.  The legalistic nature of Islam has meant that there has always been an organized clerical hierarchy of one sort or another.  While the Western Christianity decided their religious hierarchy should focus more on administrative functions, the Islamic clerical hierarchy has historically focused much more heavily on judicial functions.

Nizaris1 wrote...

Iran and their army don't represent Islam.

Don't tell them that!

Nizaris1 wrote...

But Pope, Swiss Guard, Vatican represent Christian.

Christianity is not monolithic.  The Papacy and attendant institutions are part of the Roman Catholic denomination.

[Red Templar]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Then why name it "Templar" when there is no Temple?

More likely than not because the word has become so loaded and used as a term for fascism and conspiracy because of how the templar order has been depicted in rumours and popular culture. The templar order in DA is nothing at all like the knights templar. It seems likely that the DA order was named more for the entry on tvtropes than for the historical order. It really doesn't make terrible sense for the DA templars, with the history that they have, to be named templars. May as well use the word Hospitaller for an order with no medical connection, though that of course isn't nearly as loaded a word.

Anyway. The templars weren't the army of the catholic church, as has been explained to you. They were a military order with a large administrative division that, while sanctioned from the pope, didn't take orders from him. The pope didn't pay them salaries or give them orders, he just promoted them as a charity.

Modifié par Red Templar, 09 août 2012 - 07:50 .

[Ianamus]

I thought that the templars are a separate entity now? I remember reading on the wiki that both the mages and the templars have seperated themselves from the chantry and now act independantly.

I don't think the chantry is really to blame when it comes to mages. They just try to protect people, and as is pointed out in the games- if there were no system in place then ordinary people would simply hunt down and kill mages themselves out of fear.

The Templars have really started to turn into a more sinister organisation, but like I said, they are seperated from the chantry now.

Modifié par EJ107, 09 août 2012 - 08:21 .

[esper]

@Nizaris1, I have a question out of curiosity do you know what the difference between protestants and catatholics are? Because you keep saying that all the christian have the pope, but that is not true, and then we haven't even gotten into the phenomen of culture-christians which is pretty common here in Denmark.


Anyway, this discussion are going way off track from the Chantry. I have no doubt that the Chantry was meant to draw parallels to the church and the history of the church hence the word Templar for the military unit, but parallels are not the same as an 100 percent accurry. The church has done some nasty things in the past, but in my opinion it all pales in comparision what the Chantry have been done, but worst off all it all pales to the comparison that why the three abhraham religions in real life pictures a god that are somewhat reasonable to his own followers, then the chantrys god is outright malevolent to his own followers according to how the chantry understands its chant.

[esper]

EJ107 wrote...

I thought that the templars are a separate entity now? I remember reading on the wiki that both the mages and the templars have seperated themselves from the chantry and now act independantly.

I don't think the chantry is really to blame when it comes to mages. They just try to protect people, and as is pointed out in the games- if there were no system in place then ordinary people would simply hunt down and kill mages themselves out of fear.

The Templars have really started to turn into a more sinister organisation, but like I said, they are seperated from the chantry now.

That fear is entirely the Chantrys fault, since it is their religion that are spreading it and making it worse.

[Red Templar]

esper wrote...

That fear is entirely the Chantrys fault, since it is their religion that are spreading it and making it worse.

Considering some of the things that we have seen mages do in the course of the two games, I think it is reasonable and to be expected that any sane person fear them.