275 réponses à ce sujet

[Red Templar]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Of course, the Templars take orders from the Grandmaster of the Order. And the Grandmaster of the Order MUST submit to the Pope AND following Pope order. If not, they are excommunicated, in which happened in Jaques d Molay time.

You understand though that this never lead to the templars being used as a private army for the hope, though? The templars didn't go around europe acting as the pope's stormtroopers, they didn't act as his bodyguard, they weren't fielded in wars against other christians. Everything the templars did they did with their own institutional autonomy.

de Molay wasn't burned because he defied the pope's orders. He was burned because the king of france didn't want to pay his debts to the order, and bullied the pope into giving him the go ahead.

Of course, BUT what they represent in the game? The way i see it is
like that. Too much similarity, that makes the Mages represent Muslims.

See
here..."When Mages (Muslims) of Tevinter Imperium (Muslim Kingdom) find
their way into the Golden City (Jerusalem), and tainted it with their
sin, darkspawn....."

I'm not sure that I agree, or more specifically I'm not sure that this is Bioware's intentional parallel, but it isn't a connection I'd noticed before. An interesting perspective on things anyway.

Modifié par Red Templar, 09 août 2012 - 09:11 .

[Chris Priestly]

Ok, this is getting entirely too close to real world religion. We do not discuss that here. Please continue discussing DA religion but avoid comparrisons to real world ones, or the thread gets closed.

[esper]

Edited, because I can see the too close to real world religion thing:bandit:

Modifié par esper, 09 août 2012 - 09:36 .

[The Hierophant]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The Seeker is CIA...

Lol, nope.

[Mello]

esper wrote...

Edited, because I can see the too close to real world religion thing:bandit:

I saw how much you wrote 

[esper]

iPoohCupCakes wrote...

esper wrote...

Edited, because I can see the too close to real world religion thing:bandit:

I saw how much you wrote 

Thanks.

[esper]

Nizaris1 wrote...

iPoohCupCakes
I saw how much you wrote

me too...lol

esper wrote...
Edited, because I can see the too close to real world religion thin

I manage to read it all before you edit...lol...it's okay...i just want to prove my points, not attacking anyone who are Catholic or Christians as the whole...i just try to connect the dots...that is the way i want to understand what this game want to show....

For good measure I was never feeling attacked, I just love a good discussion and I find religion interesting and I rarely have a chance to discuss it.

Turning back to the chantry, though. 

I rarely find a religion evil, but I do think the chantry's understanding of the chant of light is. They basically want to bring back a god who has a track record of abandoment, abuse, bad temper and adultery. I see nothing beatufull in the official version of the story.

People who pray to and evil god because they believe if they don't he will punish all, I can understand.

People who pray to an evil god because they want to get his attention back so he can... do something unspecified, I do not understand and I don't want such people in charge of anything.

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Chantry is all damn hippo-crites!

D'aww!! Such a cute lil' hippo! 

The Hierophant wrote...

5) The mechanics of the templars abilities are unknown to us players, but calling it magic when a person with no magical ability could use it adds doubt to your assertion

David Gaider said they were a form of magic.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

In DA2, Hawke gets dragon blood somewhere on the black market to become a reaver.

During Act 3 when you kill the High Dragon. And really, that only works if you abstained from picking the Reaver spec until that moment.

Origins at least had the Reaver Joining, which is almost exactly the same as the Warden Joining -- and both are blood magic, both in how they're undertaken and what they do afterwards.

Xilizhra wrote...

I suspect the gameplay and story segregation is on DAO's side because they hadn't thought of Holy Smite yet.

Holy Smite existed in DAO also. And it worked on non-mage enemies there as well.

[SerTabris]

I really don't understand the people praying to the Maker for various minor things in their lives. Given that the only authority that has anything to say about the Maker also says that he turned his back on Thedas and isn't going to do anything to help anyone, how does praying to him make any sense? Particularly for the Chantry's own clergy, who presumably are supposed to know and believe all of this.

[Ianamus]

esper wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

I thought that the templars are a separate entity now? I remember reading on the wiki that both the mages and the templars have seperated themselves from the chantry and now act independantly.

I don't think the chantry is really to blame when it comes to mages. They just try to protect people, and as is pointed out in the games- if there were no system in place then ordinary people would simply hunt down and kill mages themselves out of fear.

The Templars have really started to turn into a more sinister organisation, but like I said, they are seperated from the chantry now.

That fear is entirely the Chantrys fault, since it is their religion that are spreading it and making it worse.

No, the fear comes from the fact that mages can at any time turn into abominations who can slaughter villages single handedly, and many do. The Chantry do not spread a fear of mages, they state that they are incredibly dangerous, which is perfectly true, and warn people about the dangers of mis-using magic.

Look at the Qunari- they have no chantry and yet they have a stronger fear of mages than even the humans do, because mages are inheritly dangerous and constantly pose a risk to themselves and everyone around them. It's implied in the games that many, many mages fall prey to demonic possesion, even well-trained ones. And while actual figues are not stated it could easily be over 50% of people born as mages. 

People have very good reason to fear mages, and if the chantry were not there hey would only be feared even more, as there would be no institution to keep them in check. 

Modifié par EJ107, 10 août 2012 - 01:13 .

[dragonflight288]

No, the fear comes from the fact that mages can at any time turn into abominations who can slaughter villages single handedly, and many do

And the lore and Gaider both say that mages cannot turn into abominations as easily as the Chantry claims. The only way is to encounter a demon, make a deal to let it in, lose a battle of wills with it and be forcibly possessed, and there is no other way. Mages walking down the street are in just as much danger of turning into an abomination as the farmer is who's walking down that very same street.

Now if a mage enters the Fade, then the mage is in very real danger of turning into an abomination. And may even make a deal without intending to. Everything in the Fade is the expression of a thought. And the only thing that separates demons from spirits is that demons are interested in the mortal world and spirits are not.

Lady Herriman was obviously using some form of blood magic, but she wasn't a mage, but was given power by a demon outside the Fade. And that demon influenced the Herriman household.

I suppose the point is that mages are in danger of becoming abominations, but the threat isn't nearly so big that if they get angry or stub their toe they turn into an abomination. It just doesn't work that way.

[Goneaviking]

OP cherry picks quotes out of context to support an agenda, and undermines his arguments by doing so.

1. The templars have many purposes in service the chantry which include seeking out unsanctions magic users and watching over the mages in the various circles. Claims that they seek to protect the mages aren't completely without merit, but it would require a more naive person than myself to argue that was the only role they had in guarding them in isolated towers.
2. Asking for alms to provide for refugees is not robbery under any ethical standard I'm aware of. Even if you don't believe that the Chantry is attempting to attend to the needs of the huddled masses outside asking for a voluntary donation STILL isn't robbery.
Rewarding people for providing services that benefit the common good does not make them hypocrites, in fact it falls well within the bounds of the term Charity. Those bandits, wolves and other beasts were active threats that were endangering the townfolk.
3. I imagine they attend to any possessed tree they become aware of, but it seems to be a very rare occurrence. They also don't manage to bring in every mage, that doesn't mean they don't try.
4. When you clear out the tower in Ferelden the templars still have a duty to guard the mages. But they honour their pledge by allowing the mages to provide assistance, if they were intent on breaking their promise they wouldn't have allowed the mages out.
More problematic is the encounter when you help the mages fighting darkspawn, and in the battle for Denerim, that the mages are unattended by Templars. To me it seems like an oversight by the game developers, because the templars accompanied the mages to the fight by the Korcari Wilds.
5. It's debatable whether templar skills utilise magic. If their powers are actually magic, they're a kind of magic that doesn't open them up to demonic possession and can only be used to effect mages rather than common folk. Which would legitimately place it in a different category anyway.
6. The Harrowing allows a mage to prove conclusively that he has the strength and resolve to resist demonic temptation and possession, which can only be proven by risking those dangers. Without such proof any mage is a potential time bomb and cannot be trusted.
7. Even in the quote selected by the OP it is evident that this solution which is extraordinarily expensive, difficult and dangerous only works on a very limited number of cases. How many people wilingly give themselves over to demons? Not many if what I've seen in the games is anything to go by.
8. Once again the solution touted by OP is of very limited utility. It can guard against attempts at mental domination but there are no hints that the Litany has any impact on any other blood magic affect, to say nothing of the difficulty implicit in using in a battle anyway.
9. The criticism and quote provided is from Alistaire who is deeply critical of the Chantry himself, and is immediately contradicted by Leliana if you have her in the party during that encounter.

OP has a clear agenda and pursues it disingenously.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

dragonflight288 wrote...

No, the fear comes from the fact that mages can at any time turn into abominations who can slaughter villages single handedly, and many do

And the lore and Gaider both say that mages cannot turn into abominations as easily as the Chantry claims. The only way is to encounter a demon, make a deal to let it in, lose a battle of wills with it and be forcibly possessed, and there is no other way. Mages walking down the street are in just as much danger of turning into an abomination as the farmer is who's walking down that very same street.

Now if a mage enters the Fade, then the mage is in very real danger of turning into an abomination. And may even make a deal without intending to. Everything in the Fade is the expression of a thought. And the only thing that separates demons from spirits is that demons are interested in the mortal world and spirits are not.

When mages dreams, it's said they enter the Fade fully conscious. It's also said that mages, unlike mundanes, attract demons to them by dint of what they are. Finally, there are demons in the Fade.

This means mages have the potential to encounter a demon whenever they dream, several hours every night of their lives.

Can a deal be struck with a demon in a dream? Can a mage be forcibly possessed in a dream?

If so, and if becoming an abomination is the direct result, the farmer comparison isn't a very good one.

Edit: I confess I'd like to see what happens when a mage PC dreams. The only NPC I remember talking about their dreams is Wynne, who talks about the sensation of a friendly spirit watching over her and protecting her steps in the Fade.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 10 août 2012 - 03:20 .

[The Hierophant]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

The Chantry is all damn hippo-crites!

D'aww!! Such a cute lil' hippo! 

The Hierophant wrote...

5) The mechanics of the templars abilities are unknown to us players, but calling it magic when a person with no magical ability could use it adds doubt to your assertion

David Gaider said they were a form of magic.

Well wax my back hair, shave my head and use me as a surf board.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 10 août 2012 - 03:27 .

[LolaLei]

LOL!

[MisterJB]

Nizaris1 wrote...

SerTabris wrote...
I really don't understand the people praying to the Maker for various minor things in their lives. Given that the only authority that has anything to say about the Maker also says that he turned his back on Thedas and isn't going to do anything to help anyone, how does praying to him make any sense? Particularly for the Chantry's own clergy, who presumably are supposed to know and believe all of this.

Good point...now that is the no 1 hypocrisy of the Chantry

Ok, you need to check the definition of hypocrisy. It means to preach one thing and practice another.
For instance, calling magic sinful except for when it is used by templars is hypocrisy. (It's still a necessary one, however)
Praying to the Maker while believing He has left forever is not hypocrisy, it's stupidity. There is, however, a purpose behind those prayers.
The Chantry believes that if every single person in Thedas prays hard enough, the Maker will forgive mankind and return thus justifying their daily prayers. Realistically, this is probrably an excuse to spread the influence of the Chantry but that is a completely different point.

Modifié par MisterJB, 10 août 2012 - 04:20 .

[Goneaviking]

Nizaris1 wrote...

SerTabris wrote...
I really don't understand the people praying to the Maker for various minor things in their lives. Given that the only authority that has anything to say about the Maker also says that he turned his back on Thedas and isn't going to do anything to help anyone, how does praying to him make any sense? Particularly for the Chantry's own clergy, who presumably are supposed to know and believe all of this.

Good point...now that is the no 1 biggest hypocrisy of the Chantry

Goneaviking wrote...
6. The Harrowing allows a mage to prove conclusively that he has the strength and resolve to resist demonic temptation and possession......

yeah...by calling a demon and put it into the mage...

You're pursuing a real world political agenda into a fantasy game. Don't expect me to respond to you on this subject with anything but naked contempt.