275 réponses à ce sujet

[IllusiveManJr]

As a newcomer to the Dragon Age franchise, (I've only played Dragon Age II) I'm glad to see it has a passionate and devoted fanbase. I'm looking forward to playing Origins.
This is an interesting discussion. I wish I could contribute.

[brushyourteeth]

The truth is that there are many ways that the Chantry is hypocritical. But not everyone that's part of that religion is sincere. And attaining non-hypocrite status is basically akin to attaining perfection. We all think something should be done this way and then tend to either opt out or fall short when it comes to doing it ourselves. That doesn't make us religious -- that makes us human.

Also, being mad at the Chantry because of some grudge you hold against a real-life religion is flat-out stupidity. And it shows an alarming amount of close-mindedness (the stubborn choice to assume the worst about something even when compelling evidence suggests there's at least some value to it).

This post has been done before. And again. And again. And again. You never see topics discussing the redeeming qualities of the Chantry because in real life, religion has become unpopular. But Dragon Age isn't real life. Saying that the Chantry does some good or has some good principles is not the same thing as becoming a real-life convert. I just think it's pretty obvious that for some people, Chantry hate is the same thing as church hate. Which is fine -- just don't pretend those organizations have much more in common than an organized belief in one true deity. And don't use the BSN as a platform to falsely represent a religion you probably don't understand as well as you think you do. It'd be in bad taste anywhere, but the BSN is really not the place for it.

theillusiveman11 wrote...

As a newcomer to the Dragon Age franchise, (I've only played Dragon Age II) I'm glad to see it has a passionate and devoted fanbase. I'm looking forward to playing Origins.
This is an interesting discussion. I wish I could contribute.

Welcome!

If you've played DAII, I'm sure you have plenty of valuable thoughts on the Chantry. So don't be afraid to share them! And DA:O is amazing -- you will love it!

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 10 août 2012 - 05:45 .

[Xilizhra]

You never see topics discussing the redeeming qualities of the Chantry because in real life, religion has become unpopular.

Um, find me an atheist US president and we'll take a look at that claim again. Religion is very far away from being unpopular in real life; it may be less popular in certain Internet communities, but that's not nearly the same thing.

But Dragon Age isn't real life. Saying that the Chantry does some good or has some good principles is not the same thing as becoming a real-life convert. I just think it's pretty obvious that for some people, Chantry hate is the same thing as church hate. Which is fine -- just don't pretend those organizations have much more in common than an organized belief in one true deity. And don't use the BSN as a platform to falsely represent a religion you probably don't understand as well as you think you do. It'd be in bad taste anywhere, but the BSN is really not the place for it.

They do have some other things in common, such as a monogendered priesthood with celibacy vows. Also multinational political power.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

You never see topics discussing the redeeming qualities of the Chantry because in real life, religion has become unpopular.

Um, find me an atheist US president and we'll take a look at that claim again. Religion is very far away from being unpopular in real life; it may be less popular in certain Internet communities, but that's not nearly the same thing.

Point taken about US presidents (though I tend to be pretty cynical that any politician really cares about anything except power and approval). Still, I'd welcome you to challenge my comment and start a "Positive Things About the Chantry" topic and watch it either die a rapid death or derail into a bashfest.

But Dragon Age isn't real life. Saying that the Chantry does some good or has some good principles is not the same thing as becoming a real-life convert. I just think it's pretty obvious that for some people, Chantry hate is the same thing as church hate. Which is fine -- just don't pretend those organizations have much more in common than an organized belief in one true deity. And don't use the BSN as a platform to falsely represent a religion you probably don't understand as well as you think you do. It'd be in bad taste anywhere, but the BSN is really not the place for it.

They do have some other things in common, such as a monogendered priesthood with celibacy vows. Also multinational political power.

Aw, I was totally using hyperbole and you caught me on it. They also sometimes wear robes and read books! 

Seriously though, to get back on topic (because it is a topic worth discussing as long as it doesn't derail into a real-life religion hatefest) -- the Chantry are definitely, definitely hypocritical when it comes to caring for the poor and downtrodden. They do encourage the societal norms that keep elves beneath humans when they have it in their power to stop that almost completely.

All men are the Work of our Maker's Hands,
From the lowest slaves
To the highest kings.
Those who bring harm
Without provocation to the least of His children
Are hated and accursed by the Maker.
- Transfigurations 1:3

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 10 août 2012 - 06:20 .

[Xilizhra]

Point taken about US presidents (though I tend to be pretty cynical that any politician really cares about anything except power and approval). Still, I'd welcome you to challenge my comment and start a "Positive Things About the Chantry" topic and watch it either die a rapid death or derail into a bashfest.

This might possibly be for the same reason that a "Positive things about the darkspawn" topic wouldn't go very far. We simply don't see much that the Chantry does when it's not being villainous; when it isn't that, it tends to be useless in some form or other.

[Reznore57]

Because people do bad things in name of religion doesn't mean religion is bad.
I like religions , i found them very interesting , they mostly all were revolutionnary at their times.
They used to deal with human problems when there were no psychologist , chaman , priest , imam whatever , they were (are) doctor for the "soul" when medecine didn't care about it.

The fact that religions have been used time and time again for unpowering hidden agenda is as old as the world.
Mostly all religions have suffer from "killing in the name of" ....
But it's like anything , the moment something as power over people is gonna be used and abused ...

I also find that naming one particular religion as an example is terribly ridiculous....we could name all of the most popular organised religion , they're very much alike at the core , and all have been used as an excuse for doing bad thing anyway.

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This might possibly be for the same reason that a "Positive things about the darkspawn" topic wouldn't go very far. We simply don't see much that the Chantry does when it's not being villainous; when it isn't that, it tends to be useless in some form or other.

What? Whan was the Chantry villianous?

The only thing I can think of is when the Templars invoked the Right of Annulment in DA:O (and I suppose in DA ][), but the Chantry is never shown as being supportive of these occurences, so they don't fall under "villianous Chantry."

There's also Petrice's actions. Supposedly they weren't sanctioned by Elthina, but quite frankly I don't buy that. Petrice, realizing that Elthina wasn't going to support her after her killing of Saemus was exposed, sounded exactly like Count Dooku looked in Revenge of the Sith when Palpatine told Anakin to kill him; betrayed by a fellow conspirator. Then there's her constantly (and rather speciously) claiming that she can't do anything to rein in Meredith despite clearly demonstrating a fair bit of control over her...

[Xilizhra]

No, I'd consider Meredith a black-hatted villain for the entire game, easily worse than Loghain and with consequences of her actions at least as bad as Rendon Howe's, although her motivation was a combination of fear and a twisted sort of love instead of outright sadism. That said, she makes no effort to get rid of templar subordinates who are outright sadists.

[dragonflight288]

But as the Knight-Commander, Meredith is directly responsible for the actions of her subordinates. It is her responsibility to investigate Alrik, Kerras, Thrask, Cullen, and others. Cullen was promoted to Knight-Captain because he shared similar views of mages with Meredith.

Cullen isn't guilty of abusing mages, but he too outranked Alrik and Kerras, and he too had the power, authority, and responsibility to check up on the templars as well. We know he does this independently because in Act 1 he was investigating the templar recruits going missing, and took matters into his own hands to question that one possessed templar.

And the Chantry law specifically says that mages cannot be made tranquil after their harrowing. And you need both the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander to agree to it if it's used as punishment, as was the case with Jowan.

Because we know that abuse was rampant in Kirkwall's Circle (mages were beaten for talking to civilians) we know one of two things happened with Meredith.

1. She didn't investigate her own templars. She allowed the abuses to occur because she was not informed. But if this is the case, then the fault of that is on her own shoulders. She is ignoring her responsibility to help the mages by ignoring her templars actions.

or

2. She knew and she didn't care.

Either way, it's enough to be worth condemnation. And one is due to incompetence and the other is villainy at its finest.

[dragonflight288]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

No, the fear comes from the fact that mages can at any time turn into abominations who can slaughter villages single handedly, and many do

And the lore and Gaider both say that mages cannot turn into abominations as easily as the Chantry claims. The only way is to encounter a demon, make a deal to let it in, lose a battle of wills with it and be forcibly possessed, and there is no other way. Mages walking down the street are in just as much danger of turning into an abomination as the farmer is who's walking down that very same street.

Now if a mage enters the Fade, then the mage is in very real danger of turning into an abomination. And may even make a deal without intending to. Everything in the Fade is the expression of a thought. And the only thing that separates demons from spirits is that demons are interested in the mortal world and spirits are not.

When mages dreams, it's said they enter the Fade fully conscious. It's also said that mages, unlike mundanes, attract demons to them by dint of what they are. Finally, there are demons in the Fade.

This means mages have the potential to encounter a demon whenever they dream, several hours every night of their lives.

Can a deal be struck with a demon in a dream? Can a mage be forcibly possessed in a dream?

If so, and if becoming an abomination is the direct result, the farmer comparison isn't a very good one.

Edit: I confess I'd like to see what happens when a mage PC dreams. The only NPC I remember talking about their dreams is Wynne, who talks about the sensation of a friendly spirit watching over her and protecting her steps in the Fade.

Not true. Nice try, but not true. Mages have the capacity to enter the Fade fully conscious, and tat separates them from non-mages. That much is true. But a mage needs lyrium or blood magic to do the ritual to enter the Fade conscious. The only exception in the games is the Somniari, the Dreamers, like Fenriel, who have the capacity to enter the Fade conscious without any aid from lyrium or blood magic. But because of this sensitivity to the Fade, most don't survive, thus making them very rare.

The average mage going to bed at night is in no more danger than the blacksmith down the road.

[LobselVith8]

EntropicAngel wrote...

And about Meredith, until the invoking of the RoA the things Meredith did were harsh, but certainly not villainous. I don't support them, but try were not deliberately cruel.

Meredith had a death squad killing civilians during her reign as dictator; I certainly think that was cruel.

EntropicAngel wrote...

As a result the Chantry tried to stay out of it--separation of church and state kind of idea.

The templars are the military arm of the Chantry - who preach that templars have "domination over mages by divine right" (according to Cullen) and interfering with their duties is said to be an "affront to the Maker" (according to the Grand Cleric in Denerim). I don't see how Meredith's actions caused Grand Cleric Elthina to step back when the Knight-Commander is her subordinate (as the codex entry indicates), or why the Chantry and the Seekers of Truth did nothing for three years while Meredith violated the law and became the de facto Viscount.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 10 août 2012 - 07:52 .

[LobselVith8]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I confess I don't remember this at all.

Act III's "Noble Agenda," which was available if Hawke sided against Meredith.

EntropicAngel wrote...

That all falls under questionable, but certainly not villainous.

For those who see the Chantry controlled Circles as wrong, view the Rite of Tranquility as a truly monstrous act, abhor the Right of Annulment, or share the view of Aldenon the Great, Anders, and (pro-mage) Hawke by viewing it as slavery, it can be viewed as villainous.

Furthermore, the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars are both religious institutions - with the templars serving as the military arm of the Chantry - so there is no "separation of church and state" here.

EntropicAngel wrote...

And, for all we know, the Grand Cleric tried to stop her, but Meredith threatened her somehow. We can't be certain that the Grand Cleric approves of all this.

Considering she puts Meredith in her place at the beginning of Act III by telling her to be a "good girl" and Meredith's templars followed her orders about Orsino without consulting Meredith first, I'm disinclined to believe Meredith threatened her. When Orsino tries to see Elthina in "The Last Straw," Meredith seems eager to stop him, which I doubt would be an issue if Meredith forced Elthina to capitulate to her rule.

Allowing your subordinate to openly violate the law for three years by holding political power, to prevent elections for a new Viscount, and to have a death squad murdering civilians in broad daylight, shows the epic failure of Elthina's role as Grand Cleric. If she didn't support Meredith, Elthina comes across as grossly incompetent.

[Reznore57]

From what i understand , The grand Cleric tried to interfere but it was useless.
Sebastien says that The Knight Commander doesn't listen anymore and that Elthina is worried during a banter.

By act 3 , The divine is looking at Kirkwall and thinking about an exalted march.
Elthina want to prevent that.
So obviously , she can't ask for help to Orlais to remove Meredith from power.
"Dear divine , everything is dandy , p.s: I might have lost control over our templars."
Meredith controls the templars , Elthina without templars is nothing but an old woman with a bunch of priestress.

Besides They close their eyes on mages abuse , but when templars got killed like Ser Alrik , there isn't much of an investigation neither.
They simply may not have enough manpower to keep everything checked , the templars order is really less popular than it used to be.
And the mage population in Kirkwall is pretty big , and out of controls.Refugees from Fereldan and Starkhaven + a lot of apostates that seems to be somewhat organised.

And also , in the circle , mages and templars working to overthrow Meredith .
it's a big mess , really.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

When mages dreams, it's said they enter the Fade fully conscious. It's also said that mages, unlike mundanes, attract demons to them by dint of what they are. Finally, there are demons in the Fade.

This means mages have the potential to encounter a demon whenever they dream, several hours every night of their lives.

Can a deal be struck with a demon in a dream? Can a mage be forcibly possessed in a dream?

If so, and if becoming an abomination is the direct result, the farmer comparison isn't a very good one.

Edit: I confess I'd like to see what happens when a mage PC dreams. The only NPC I remember talking about their dreams is Wynne, who talks about the sensation of a friendly spirit watching over her and protecting her steps in the Fade.

Not true. Nice try, but not true. Mages have the capacity to enter the Fade fully conscious, and tat separates them from non-mages. That much is true. But a mage needs lyrium or blood magic to do the ritual to enter the Fade conscious.

After rechecking some codices, perhaps I am incorrect about the conscious bit. A passage in the Abomination codex (quoted below) seemed to imply that dreaming mages enter the Fade aware, but cross-referencing with other codices appears to confirm that lyrium or blood magic is required for this.

Ok, so that would bar a willing deal with demons, but what of the rest? A sleeping mage is still in the Fade, and if they attract demons they could theoretically be forcibly possessed.

Or is there some reference to mages only looking attractive to demons when their minds are 'awake'? *returns to wiki*

From the codex entry "Demonic Possession": they [demons] pull the living across the Veil when they sleep and prey on their psyche with nightmares.

And from "Abominations": It is known that mages are able to walk the Fade while completely aware of their surroundings, unlike most others who may only enter the realm as dreamers and leave it scarcely aware of their experience. Demons are drawn to mages, though whether it is because of this awareness or simply by virtue of their magical power in our world is unknown.

Bolded passage states it's unknown whether the mage must be conscious or not for a demon to be aware of them while they're in the Fade.

But considering I don't recall any NPCs trying to use this as a reason for keeping mages locked up/feared (which is rather surprising considering the aforementioned uncertainty), I'm currently inclined to think the mage must be aware in order to be visible to demons as it'd be a powerful argument in favour of the Templars if true.

So, unless other evidence crops up in the future, sleeping mages look to be safe unless an external influence is introduced. Cool.

By the way:

dragonflight288 wrote...

Not true. Nice try, but not true.

I don't care who comes out on top between the mages or templars in this debate. I just like talking about the lore. So I'd be grateful if your corrections came with a little less condescension.

Thanks.

[Dave of Canada]

I don't really find the Templar's abilities to be hypocricy. Yes, they preach magic is bad and all mages should be reported to the Chantry but that's because mages have entirely different abilities than their own, Templar abilities only harm magic users and denizens of the Fade (lore-wise) and don't place them at any higher risk of possession than anyone else.

In other words, Templar aren't as dangerous as anyone else despite all their hard-trained lyrium-gained abilities.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 10 août 2012 - 01:36 .

[Xilizhra]

- so why they all pray to Him and doing things in His name and claim doing His job in controlling and oppressing Mages?

- isn't that a ruthless "god", someone else who doing wrong, he punish the whole world?

They're trying to get the Maker to come back, IIRC. I agree with you, though, in that the Maker is a remarkably malevolent god. But that's hardly surprising; malevolent gods are very popular even IRL.