275 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

In the chant of light , the Maker never blamed the mages
He blamed magic and perhaps the old gods.
Now the idea that mages are the reason of the "original sin" and because of them , the Maker turned away from everyone is seen as the truth almost everywhere in Thedas.
And it seems like yeah mages somehow did create a s***storm.(i don't believe the whole version of the chantry , and i do hope it's a litlle bit more complicated.)

So basically it's well accepted among people that mages chase "god" away ,and well ruled for centuries in a pretty barbaric manner (slaves were butchered daily it seems ).
The chantry is just a backlash from the past.
And also this "hatred" of mages is born out of fear , magic is not fully understood in Thedas.

Now again saying the chantry is nothing but evil is really not seeing the big picture.
They do a lot of bad things , nobody is saying they're peaceful loving fluffy bunnies.
The chantry and the chant of light IS an improvement for most people (obviously not for mages ), since the Imperium crumble , the idea for example that slavery is wrong became popular.
The elves are free in chantry land , even if ok their freedom sucks , and the chantry kind of give them the finger along the way.

And before the mage rebelled , the divine was thinking of how to improve life for mages ...

The problem now is , it's war.
And there's a lot of hatred going on.Mages have been abused for years now , they have reasons to be angry.
But common people have been abused by mages for centuries before , they have reasons to be scared.
And obviously while there's gonna be good people on both side willing to compromise, there's gonna be lots of people too blinded by their feelings .

It's impossible to know where the writers are gonna go with this...well i know it's gonna be bloody ...but its seems they want to paint everything with a grey brush (which is fine by me ) .
My point is wanting to point the finger is useless ...everybody in the story have been a victim depending on who was holding the leash at the moment.
Power corrupt , I do believe the chantry or mages are equal when it comes to that.

[brushyourteeth]

Yay - now that we're talking about Dragon Age again I can actually talk to you!!

Nizaris1 wrote...

Interesting readings...but let get this straight...

1. The Maker curse Tevinter Mages turn into darkspwn...- Tevinter Mages turn into darkspawn

2. darkspwn tainting dragons underground to become Archdemon- meaning those darkspawn doing something to the dragons that make them intelligent and lead them into battle

- so the Maker doing nothing about it? Or He don't expect that those Mages who turn into darkspawn are intelligent?

3. The Chantry said the Blight is the Maker punishment to mankind

- it is clearly shown that the Maker who cursed the Mages did not expect the darkspawn bring the Blight upon the world, because the darkspawn action in tainting the dragons are by somewhat intelligent action, not the Maker plan

The Maker DID intend for the blights to happen. A sample of mankind invaded and basically tried to plunder his city (I don't think it really mattered to him that they were mages - he would have been ticked at anyone they were just the only ones with the means to get there). So when you try to get one over on the Maker and make yourself equal with him, he's perfectly justified in reminding you who's boss and chastising you for it (because he created you, and you were the one who offended - not him).

So he turned the magisters into twisted reflections of their own wicked hearts and it spread like a disease. Chantry lore says that when the Chant of Light is brought to the far corners of the world or when the Blights end, He'll come back from his temporary separation from mortals and consider everything even. Yeah, people are suffering in the meanwhile, but that doesn't stop them from being loved by him in the afterlife.

There's the Chantry's version of things. I'm not actually saying I agree with it (because again, this has nothing to do with real-life religion - it's a fantasy game, and anything goes) but I am saying that you don't seem to understand the Chantry lore very well at all. Which might explain why it looks unreasonably hypocritical to you.

4. The Chantry also teach that the Maker have left everyone and not help anyone

- so why they all pray to Him and doing things in His name and claim doing His job in controlling and oppressing Mages?

- isn't that a ruthless "god", someone else who doing wrong, he punish the whole world?

Because they believe that faithfully upholding the Chant will speed along his returning. And maybe some people in Thedas really love him, even if he doesn't seem to care very much about them. It happens between humans all the time!

But I find that to be a really interesting question since I know you're a Muslim! I don't mean to be disrespectful - I just mean that the stories are sort of similar. At least as far as the world suffering for one or two people's original sins, that is.

5.Andraste cast down Tevinter Imperium

- wait...what? isn't Tevinter mages are cursed by the maker already?

6. Andraste is the prophet of God, doing God's work, the bride of God

- really? the God can curse Tevinter mages just like that before, why He need Andraste to cast down Tevinter Imperium? isn't the Maker don't care about mankind anymore and planning the Blight?

Yep. They were oppressing people. Andraste didn't like it. The Maker loved Andraste. She asked him for the ability to change things. He granted it to her.

7. Andraste burn down by Tevinter Mage

- so...after all she is doing, she got burned and the Maker do nothing?

Yep. But she chose to die that way,

Let the blade pass through the flesh,
Let my blood touch the ground,
Let my cries touch their hearts. Let mine be the last sacrifice.
-Andraste 7:12

and in doing so she not only got to be with the Maker but her martyrdom brought the knowledge of the Maker to Thedas. Before Andraste, worship of the Maker didn't really happen. So maybe he's real or maybe she made it up. But here's the thing that's key to understanding why the Andrastians are so faithful to the Maker -- a promise to stay away for awhile is also a promise to return. They're holding on to their faith because they believe he'll love and accept them one day the way he once did.

Dave of Canada wrote...
I don't really find the Templar's abilities to be hypocricy. Yes, they preach magic is bad and all mages should be reported to the Chantry but that's because mages have entirely different abilities than their own, Templar abilities only harm magic users and denizens of the Fade (lore-wise) and don't place them at any higher risk of possession than anyone else.

In other words, Templar aren't as dangerous as anyone else despite all their hard-trained lyrium-gained abilities.

I agree. The Chantry talks about magic being a scary thing, but what they really mean is that mages are scary because they attract demons and can use blood magic if they want to. Templars can't use blood magic, and even if one became possessed, he/she still wouldn't be an abomination - just a scary possessed person.

I don't think it's hypocritical of them to use magic to fight magic. They talk about "magic" being evil but it's all semantics. What is hypocritical, however, is how it's ok to use phylacteries, which is dangerously close to blood magic.

[Xilizhra]

I agree. The Chantry talks about magic being a scary thing, but what they really mean is that mages are scary because they attract demons and can use blood magic if they want to. Templars can't use blood magic, and even if one became possessed, he/she still wouldn't be an abomination - just a scary possessed person.

Actually, templars can use blood magic, assuming they drink dragon's blood and become reavers.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Nizaris1. You've got it wrong. It's not hypocrisy. It's called corruption. It's called abuse of power. The Templars were originally formed with honorable goals. The Chantry was originally noble. The Chantry grew in power and was corrupted and they in turn corrupted The Templars (who actually existed before The Chantry as The Inquisitors who went across Thedas fighting blood mages, cultists and demons).

I don't think they've developed a way to stop a blood mage and purge them of their demon without killing them. The Litany of Andrea (no, I seriously can't remember the real name of the Litany so I'll refer to it as Andrea's Litany) was to stop Uldred from dominate the mage's minds. He was using blood magic to do that. Do you not remember the function of the Litany? It broke his spells and saved the mages but it didn't stop him and purge him of his blood magic or even control it for that matter. There's no solution against blood magic other than death.

Meredith's templars saying that they "run the city" is just part of Meredith's tyranny. She was abusing her powers and really wanted the templars to rule. She's the opposite of what a templar is supposed to stand for. Knight Commander Greagoir and Ser Otto (the blind templar from Origins) are examples of how a real templar should be.

As brushyourteeth said about the army part, The Templars were saying that they will react if the Qunari invade or what not since they are the largest force in the city so it would make sense for them to lead Kirkwall into battle rather than The City Guard which consists of 10 people who don't even do anything and suck so bad that Kirkwall is actually overrun by bandits. No wonder why Meredith wanted The Templars running the city as guards too. I actually agree with her there. If Templars served as the guards then there would have been more resistance against the bandits and you wouldn't have been ambushed by armies of bandits every night.

The Tevinter's Templars are sort of an example of how Templars should be. The Templars there don't abuse mages (because mages are running the city) but they are called in to fight against blood mages and demons when they arise.

[The Hierophant]

Nizaris1 wrote...

So in short...before Andraste no one worship the Maker right? The Maker is known through Andraste.

So now where is the claim that Tevinter Mages are cursed and become darkspawn comes from? Since before Andraste, the Maker is unknown? 

So now...between the period of the first Blight and Andraste cast down Tevinter Imperium, what the Maker do? If he really intent to destroy the world with Blight, the world should have been destroyed already. But why He allow Grey Warden to stop it? Even so Grey Warden will never ever stop it fully. Isn't that makes the Grey Warden are bad guys here, defying His work on destroying the world?

Furthermore...there is 5th Blight already, meaning 5 times the Maker try to destroy the world, between that period, Tevinter Imperium rose and Magister rule, Andraste come into being and defeating the Tevinter...and the Maker is known to all...

I find all these are nonsense...i can say it is all lies. Either The Maker don't exist, mages never turn into darkspawn, the Blight is just natural disaster, everything are not related at all and Chantry made it all up.

By the way, Muslims don't believe in Original Sin, Christian does.

Corypheus who was one of the Tevinter Magisters to enter the Golden City said that the city was black when they got there, also implying that they inadvertently brought the taint from the Golden City back with them into Thedas. This means that the passage in the Chant of Light about the magisters corruption of the Golden and contraction of the taint is a half truth.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 10 août 2012 - 04:03 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

Nizaris1 wrote...


So now...between the period of the first Blight and Andraste cast down Tevinter Imperium, what the Maker do? If he really intent to destroy the world with Blight, the world should have been destroyed already. But why He allow Grey Warden to stop it? Even so Grey Warden will never ever stop it fully. Isn't that makes the Grey Warden are bad guys here, defying His work on destroying the world?

 

Who said it was his intention to destroy the world? When he cast down the Tevinter mages they became the darkspawn and they sort out the archdemons (who were worshipped by the Imperium as the old gods) to begin the blights. Was it his intention for the blights to be so destructive? Maybe but the blight can serve as a test for the whole of the world and unites the races to fight together and prove their worth. Maybe it wasn't even his intention for blights to occur.

Nizaris1 wrote... 
Furthermore...there is 5th Blight already, meaning 5 times the Maker try to destroy the world, between that period, Tevinter Imperium rose and Magister rule, Andraste come into being and defeating the Tevinter...and the Maker is known to all...

Not really. The Chant still hasn't been spread everywhere and many (Qunari, dwarves, dalish) still don't worship The Maker or speak The Chant.

Nizaris1 wrote... 

I find all these are nonsense...i can say it is all lies. Either The Maker don't exist, mages never turn into darkspawn, the Blight is just natural disaster, everything are not related at all and Chantry made it all up.

Well the ancient darkspawn (Corypheus) in DA2 Legacy was a mage from Tevinter and he spoke about The Golden City and how "he was promised light" and he also could lure Grey Wardens and darkspawn to him like an archdemon does which does suggest that The Chantry is right in mages invading The Golden City.

Ninja'd and killed by The Hierophant

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 10 août 2012 - 04:08 .

[brushyourteeth]

Nizaris1 wrote...

So in short...before Andraste no one worship the Maker right? The Maker is known through Andraste.

So now where is the claim that Tevinter Mages are cursed and become darkspawn comes from? Since before Andraste, the Maker is unknown?

So now...between the period of the first Blight and Andraste cast down Tevinter Imperium, what the Maker do? If he really intent to destroy the world with Blight, the world should have been destroyed already. But why He allow Grey Warden to stop it? Even so Grey Warden will never ever stop it fully. Isn't that makes the Grey Warden are bad guys here, defying His work on destroying the world?

Furthermore...there is 5th Blight already, meaning 5 times the Maker try to destroy the world, between that period, Tevinter Imperium rose and Magister rule, Andraste come into being and defeating the Tevinter...and the Maker is known to all...

I think the idea is that the Maker is fine with the mortals ending the blights - in fact it will speed along his return to Thedas. It doesn't seem to me that his plan was to destroy the world with the Blights and those pesky Grey Wardens keep beating him at it. It seems like he let the first darkspawn loose and walked away, knowing mortals had the tools to stop them if they tried (though it's really really hard).

Though that's a really great question about the timeline, though - I confess that I don't know anything about the times of the Blights and how they relate to Andraste. We don't even have a complete Chant of Light to look at (just scattered verses), much less any explanation of who wrote them and when.

Regardless, even if they're all written by Andraste who said she got the information from the Maker himself later, that's pretty consistent throughout most religious traditions and no more ridiculous than any of them are.

I find all these are nonsense...i can say it is all lies. Either The Maker don't exist, mages never turn into darkspawn, the Blight is just natural disaster, everything are not related at all and Chantry made it all up.

This is an argument that makes much more sense. 

By the way, Muslims don't believe in Original Sin, Christian does.

Ninjaed

Hey, my bad! I was honestly under the impression that Islam upheld the Torah.

But don't think I'm picking on you because of your religion - I just don't think it's okay to take fantasy and then mix it with reality and try to put it forward as some kind of evidence that a real life religion is faulty. Any of them.

I'll do just as much to defend Islam when people start trash talking the Qun - I promise! 

[The Hierophant]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Ninjaed by the Ninja above

I already point out in other thread that Uldred is NOT Uldred, it is the demon, so the magic or power whatever "Uldred' is doing to the mages is not Blood Magic, it is demon power, and so the Lithany is also can be used to against demonic possession. see pictures below, the one who is talking and offer the gift is NOT Uldred...Uldred is already gone..."dead"

Demons are said to have taught humans blood magic, and the desire demon who possessed Connor could teach you as well, so it's possible that the pride demon used blood magic. I don't remember but when was it stated that Uldred turned into an abomination? TEWR if you know answer please?

In DA:O Gregoir claim that Templar is only advise, the First Enchanter have the last word, meaning Knight Commander is technically "under" the Fiirst Enchanter...that show Meredith is going too far.

True, it's proof that a seperation of church and state is the way to go for all forms of govenment in Thedas.

@Elton John is Dead - 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 10 août 2012 - 04:26 .

[Dave of Canada]

@Hiero: Uldred was possessed by a Pride Demon when he tried conjuring demons to usurp the Circle and overthrow the Templar after Loghain promised mages freedom, he--as in the Pride Demon--used blood magic to torture and warp the mages until they "willingly" took demons into their being.

Similar to what Tarohne was doing to the Templar.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 10 août 2012 - 04:34 .

[brushyourteeth]

Reznore57 wrote...

In the chant of light , the Maker never blamed the mages
He blamed magic and perhaps the old gods.
Now the idea that mages are the reason of the "original sin" and because of them , the Maker turned away from everyone is seen as the truth almost everywhere in Thedas.
And it seems like yeah mages somehow did create a s***storm.(i don't believe the whole version of the chantry , and i do hope it's a litlle bit more complicated.)

So basically it's well accepted among people that mages chase "god" away ,and well ruled for centuries in a pretty barbaric manner (slaves were butchered daily it seems ).
The chantry is just a backlash from the past.
And also this "hatred" of mages is born out of fear , magic is not fully understood in Thedas.

Now again saying the chantry is nothing but evil is really not seeing the big picture.
They do a lot of bad things , nobody is saying they're peaceful loving fluffy bunnies.
The chantry and the chant of light IS an improvement for most people (obviously not for mages ), since the Imperium crumble , the idea for example that slavery is wrong became popular.
The elves are free in chantry land , even if ok their freedom sucks , and the chantry kind of give them the finger along the way.

And before the mage rebelled , the divine was thinking of how to improve life for mages ...

The problem now is , it's war.
And there's a lot of hatred going on.Mages have been abused for years now , they have reasons to be angry.
But common people have been abused by mages for centuries before , they have reasons to be scared.
And obviously while there's gonna be good people on both side willing to compromise, there's gonna be lots of people too blinded by their feelings .

It's impossible to know where the writers are gonna go with this...well i know it's gonna be bloody ...but its seems they want to paint everything with a grey brush (which is fine by me ) .
My point is wanting to point the finger is useless ...everybody in the story have been a victim depending on who was holding the leash at the moment.
Power corrupt , I do believe the chantry or mages are equal when it comes to that.

Elton John is Dead wrote...
Nizaris1. You've got it wrong. It's not hypocrisy. It's called corruption. It's called abuse of power. The Templars were originally formed with honorable goals. The Chantry was originally noble. The Chantry grew in power and was corrupted and they in turn corrupted The Templars (who actually existed before The Chantry as The Inquisitors who went across Thedas fighting blood mages, cultists and demons).

Brilliant posts are brilliant!

[dragonflight288]

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

When mages dreams, it's said they enter the Fade fully conscious. It's also said that mages, unlike mundanes, attract demons to them by dint of what they are. Finally, there are demons in the Fade.

This means mages have the potential to encounter a demon whenever they dream, several hours every night of their lives.

Can a deal be struck with a demon in a dream? Can a mage be forcibly possessed in a dream?

If so, and if becoming an abomination is the direct result, the farmer comparison isn't a very good one.

Edit: I confess I'd like to see what happens when a mage PC dreams. The only NPC I remember talking about their dreams is Wynne, who talks about the sensation of a friendly spirit watching over her and protecting her steps in the Fade.

[/quote]

Not true. Nice try, but not true. Mages have the capacity to enter the Fade fully conscious, and tat separates them from non-mages. That much is true. But a mage needs lyrium or blood magic to do the ritual to enter the Fade conscious.

[/quote]

After rechecking some codices, perhaps I am incorrect about the conscious bit. A passage in the Abomination codex (quoted below) seemed to imply that dreaming mages enter the Fade aware, but cross-referencing with other codices appears to confirm that lyrium or blood magic is required for this.

Ok, so that would bar a willing deal with demons, but what of the rest? A sleeping mage is still in the Fade, and if they attract demons they could theoretically be forcibly possessed.

Or is there some reference to mages only looking attractive to demons when their minds are 'awake'? *returns to wiki*

From the codex entry "Demonic Possession": they [demons] pull the living across the Veil when they sleep and prey on their psyche with nightmares.

And from "Abominations": It is known that mages are able to walk the Fade while completely aware of their surroundings, unlike most others who may only enter the realm as dreamers and leave it scarcely aware of their experience. Demons are drawn to mages, though whether it is because of this awareness or simply by virtue of their magical power in our world is unknown.

Bolded passage states it's unknown whether the mage must be conscious or not for a demon to be aware of them while they're in the Fade.

But considering I don't recall any NPCs trying to use this as a reason for keeping mages locked up/feared (which is rather surprising considering the aforementioned uncertainty), I'm currently inclined to think the mage must be aware in order to be visible to demons as it'd be a powerful argument in favour of the Templars if true.

So, unless other evidence crops up in the future, sleeping mages look to be safe unless an external influence is introduced. Cool. [/quote]

Well then, I'll happily provide you with evidence from Origins. Mage origin story, enter he Fade for your harrowing, and you talk to Sloth. The Sloth Demon says that the mage Warden at that very moment would seem more appetizing than other 'dreamers' as (s)he has entered aware.

When we arrive at Ostagar, we can go talk to the templars standing outside where the mages are in the Fade. The templars say that the Fade is a realm of dreams. This is backed up by a codex entry.

The Fade

The study of the Fade is as old as humankind. For so long as men have dreamed, we have walked its twisting paths, sometimes catching a glimpse of the city at its heart. Always as close as our own thoughts, but impossibly separated from our world.
The Tevinter Imperium once spent vast fortunes of gold, lyrium, and human slaves in an effort to map the terrain of the Fade, an ultimately futile endeavor. Although portions of it belong to powerful spirits, all of the Fade is in constant flux. The Imperium succeeded in finding the disparate and ever-shifting realms of a dozen demon lords, as well as cataloging a few hundred types of spirits, before they were forced to abandon the project.
The relationship of dreamers to the Fade is complex. Even when
entering the Fade through the use of lyrium, mortals are not able to
control or affect it. The spirits who dwell there, however, can, and as
the Chantry
teaches us, the great flaw of the spirits is that they have neither
imagination nor ambition. They create what they see through their
sleeping visitors, building elaborate copies of our cities, people, and
events, which, like the reflections in a mirror, ultimately lack context
or life of their own. Even the most powerful demons merely plagiarize
the worst thoughts and fears of mortals, and build their realms with no
other ambition than to taste life.
--From Tranquility and the Role of the Fade in Human Culture, by First Enchanter Josephus.

Now the spirts/demons of the Fade create what they see from people's dreams. These dreams tend to be what attracts demons into our world. It has also been established that the Dwarves are the only race completely disconnected from the Fade.

So everyone who isn't a dwarf, mage and non-mage alike, go to the Fade at night to dream. The First Enchanter and the apprentices to the King and Grand Cleric, to the merchants and blacksmiths. Every one of them goes to the Fade every night. Demons have not been seen to have any direct influence on them when they dream naturally and aren't aware while in the Fade. So unless you're a somiari, the mage in question isn't in any more danger than the King or the armorer. But everyone is in just as much danger of forcible possession or making a deal if you encounter a demon outside the Fade, just as much as the Mage is while in the Fade consciously.

Gaider said that mages power, and not just magical power, is what attracts the more powerful demon. In the case of Connor, who could barely cast minor spells, him being the son of a powerful arl gave him a lot of political power that more than made up his lack of magical power, enough to attract a Desire Demon, one of the most powerful in the hierarchy. If someone used a ritual to summon a demon for a King, the King would be a very big target for possession due to his power.


[quote]By the way:

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

Not true. Nice try, but not true.[/quote]

I don't care who comes out on top between the mages or templars in this debate. I just like talking about the lore. So I'd be grateful if your corrections came with a little less condescension.

Thanks. [/quote][/quote]

I understand, and I apologize.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 10 août 2012 - 04:46 .

[dragonflight288]

Nizaris1 wrote...

So in short...before Andraste no one worship the Maker right? The Maker is known through Andraste.

So
now where is the claim that Tevinter Mages are cursed and become
darkspawn comes from? Since before Andraste, the Maker is unknown?

That isn't my understanding of Chantry lore. From my understanding, Andraste was calling people to return to the worship of the maker and not establishing a new religion.

I think I remember Gaider saying something along those lines too. That people worshipped the maker in the beginning, but turned away in favor of more substantial and easier to see Gods, like dragons. And that was the first sin. Mankind abandoned the Maker, so he abandoned them. And then he returned when he happened to hear Andraste singing, offered to make her his Bride, and she asked him to give mankind another chance, which he did up until her betrayal and death. Then he abandoned mankind again.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 10 août 2012 - 04:54 .

[Xilizhra]

Or at least, the Chantry claims that people worshiped the Maker in the beginning. I find this highly unlikely.

[dragonflight288]

Xilizhra wrote...

Or at least, the Chantry claims that people worshiped the Maker in the beginning. I find this highly unlikely.

Likely or unlikely, that's what the Chantry teaches.

I personally find it not just unlikely, but very unlikely.

[Reznore57]

Some pagan religion probably were the seeds of the whole Maker.

Like elven gods ....their gods also abandonned them.
I don't remember anything about old gods mythology except they have been worshipped.
Kinda wierd thinking about it that there is no story about them.
Maybe in Tevinter...maybe the maker is just one old god story that have retold in a more glorious light.
Who knows , it's hard to tell ,since we have little knowledge of past mythologies.
There's alway the chasind who have their own tales.
And it seems that some dwarves may have worshipped something (lost thaig in da 2 hint at that) and also have been abandonned by their(s) god(s).

[brushyourteeth]

dragonflight288 wrote...

So everyone who isn't a dwarf, mage and non-mage alike, go to the Fade at night to dream. The First Enchanter and the apprentices to the King and Grand Cleric, to the merchants and blacksmiths. Every one of them goes to the Fade every night. Demons have not been seen to have any direct influence on them when they dream naturally and aren't aware while in the Fade. So unless you're a somiari, the mage in question isn't in any more danger than the King or the armorer. But everyone is in just as much danger of forcible possession or making a deal if you encounter a demon outside the Fade, just as much as the Mage is while in the Fade consciously.

Gaider said that mages power, and not just magical power, is what attracts the more powerful demon. In the case of Connor, who could barely cast minor spells, him being the son of a powerful arl gave him a lot of political power that more than made up his lack of magical power, enough to attract a Desire Demon, one of the most powerful in the hierarchy. If someone used a ritual to summon a demon for a King, the King would be a very big target for possession due to his power.

But surely you're not saying that the common person has as much chance of being possessed as a mage has, right? Because only mages can become abominations, which are much more powerful that your garden-variety possessed person, which is one reason why demons seek mages out for possession and prefer them to other hosts.

But anyway, in case you haven't seen this, it's pretty interesting:
TUK: With mages and possession, does a mage actually have to agree to a deal with a demon in order to get possessed, or can it just happen? Can demons just go "Ah-hah, you're asleep, I will slip in while nobody's looking..." Is the truth different from what the Chantry says on the subject?

DG: They have to agree, but agree doesn't necessarily mean a conscious "Yes, please, please come in my body and turn me into a twisted abomination." Agreeing can be a moment of weakness. If you're unwilling or unable to resist being possessed then you'll be possessed. There are mages who make an intelligent bargain with a demon. Sometimes, the tricky part, something we haven't been able to show very well, is sometimes they're not aware that's what they're doing. I don't know how many people have read Asunder, the last Dragon Age novel. That does show a bit of how it's possible for a mage to be in contact with a demon and not even be aware that that's what's happening, and agreeing to things that they don't know that they're agreeing to. To say that a mage must agree is both true and false in the sense that a lot of it relates to the will of the mage and their strength to resist a very determined demon, but I think you can also see from the games and the novels that there are levels of possession as well. Not everybody who becomes possessed by a demon immediately turns into an abomination and starts attacking everything in sight. It depends on the type of demon that's attempting to take possession, how powerful they are, how intelligent they are, and the mage in question. As is typical of Dragon Age, the answer is never [typical].

[The Hierophant]

Dave of Canada wrote...

@Hiero: Uldred was possessed by a Pride Demon when he tried conjuring demons to usurp the Circle and overthrow the Templar after Loghain promised mages freedom, he--as in the Pride Demon--used blood magic to torture and warp the mages until they "willingly" took demons into their being.

Similar to what Tarohne was doing to the Templar.

Thanks for clarification. 

[R2s Muse]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

So in short...before Andraste no one worship the Maker right? The Maker is known through Andraste.

So
now where is the claim that Tevinter Mages are cursed and become
darkspawn comes from? Since before Andraste, the Maker is unknown?

That isn't my understanding of Chantry lore. From my understanding, Andraste was calling people to return to the worship of the maker and not establishing a new religion.

I think I remember Gaider saying something along those lines too. That people worshipped the maker in the beginning, but turned away in favor of more substantial and easier to see Gods, like dragons. And that was the first sin. Mankind abandoned the Maker, so he abandoned them. And then he returned when he happened to hear Andraste singing, offered to make her his Bride, and she asked him to give mankind another chance, which he did up until her betrayal and death. Then he abandoned mankind again.

Only part of this Chantry lore and part is DG word. It sounds like before the Old Gods, Tevinters did worship a  creator, but he wasn't called the Maker until the Chantry.  The whole first sin rhetoric, on the other hand, does appear to be "according to the Chantry." But it sounds like he was always a hands-off type of deity.

I ran across the following recently, so thought I would share...

David Gaider said...

The cult of the Old Gods (I don't call it "the Tevinter religion" mainly because that, to me, speaks of the Imperial Chantry -- which is based in today's Tevinter Imperium) didn't contradict the existence of the Maker. Quite the opposite. The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world. The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not created. The Old Gods were outside of the Creator's Plan and showed up to whisper to mankind and teach them magic. According to the Chantry, they turned mankind away from their regard for a remote Creator (who ruled remotely and never interacted with his own creations) and that this is what made the Creator abandon the Golden City... though there is argument that the cult believed the Creator had abandoned it long before and that they were adrift, rescued by the Old Gods. Modern sages say that this is attempt to explain the hardships that the early human civilizations faced, and not evidence of the Maker actually being absent.

So when Andraste showed up much, much later, she was advocating a return to the "rightful" worship of the Maker... it was not a belief that came out of nowhere.

There's also ALOT more on that thread...

[Zkyire]

Just a quick note - I keep seeing the word "Crusade" being thrown around likening it to the starters of a war - an abuse of power by the Church.

It was not.

The Crusades was a retaliatory response to the Muslim invasion of Christian lands.

*tips hat* Carry on.

*edit* Apologies, did not see Chris's post on religion.

Modifié par Zkyire, 10 août 2012 - 06:18 .