275 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

Thanks for the links R2sMuse , it seems very interesting , I'm gonna read it !

Modifié par Reznore57, 10 août 2012 - 06:04 .

[brushyourteeth]

Nizaris1 wrote...

By the way, about the Fade...in Mage Origin Harrowing, the very first time meeting the Mouse, the mage can ask..."Is this The Fade?"

Meaning the Mage totally unfamiliar with the Fade...they only enter the Fade AWAKE, not while sleeping

I think that question had more to do with the necessity of explaining to the player where the game had taken us, and not really a reflection on mages' understandings of the Fade.

Though it may have been his/her first time entering the Fade while conscious. If mages dream the same way that normal people do, being in the Fade while you sleep is disorienting and hard to remember afterward - and your mind fills in the blanks to make it seem like reality. It's generally agreed upon that when people dream they are in the Fade. Even Fade spirits say so.

[Reznore57]

Other races have their own mythologies , but sadly elven religion and lore have been badly damaged.
And dwarves , well ,at one point in their history , they may have worshipped something .

From what i read from R2SMuse link, David Gaider was saying that others religion never really deal with the idea of a creator.
They were gods , old gods , elven gods , but there is no story about them building the world.
So the place for a "ultimate" god was kind of vacant.
Meaning the idea of the maker isn't exactly denied by other mythologies.
The golden city isn't denied neither.
It seems like in old tevinter , the maker was kind of known but nobody cares about Him.
Apparently , he was gone and they prefered the old gods.

Again i don't like the idea of a god more powerful than others , I'm not a big maker fan .
I think he's kind of boring actually ....elven gods are way more fun , they have betrayals and everything.
The maker just seems like a grumpy loner ...

About mages and the fade , mages can't go awake in the fade without help .They need lyrium and a ritual.
Somniari on the other hand can go in the fade almost at will and can shape it and made it ripple on reality.

[R2s Muse]

Reznore57 wrote...

Thanks for the links R2sMuse , it seems very interesting , I'm gonna read it !

My pleasure! Veeery interesting stuff there... And, of course, it was also 3 yrs ago. I do wonder if anything has changed in the mind of the Maker...er, I  mean, David Gaider.

[TEWR]

The Hierophant wrote...

Demons are said to have taught humans blood magic, and the desire demon who possessed Connor could teach you as well, so it's possible that the pride demon used blood magic. I don't remember but when was it stated that Uldred turned into an abomination? TEWR if you know answer please?

Dave of Canada wrote...

@Hiero: Uldred was possessed by a Pride Demon when he tried conjuring demons to usurp the Circle and overthrow the Templar after Loghain promised mages freedom, he--as in the Pride Demon--used blood magic to torture and warp the mages until they "willingly" took demons into their being.

Similar to what Tarohne was doing to the Templar.

Pretty much this. It's arguable whether Demons were the original source of blood magic -- there seems to be evidence to say they weren't -- but what is known is that Demons know blood magic and are certainly the quickest source to learn it, as the arcane is eternal in the Fade -- as Torpor will state when he remarks on the rarity of seeing two forgotten (by Thedosian lands) types of magick in the Fade.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 août 2012 - 06:33 .

[R2s Muse]

Reznore57 wrote...

Other races have their own mythologies , but sadly elven religion and lore have been badly damaged.
And dwarves , well ,at one point in their history , they may have worshipped something .

From what i read from R2SMuse link, David Gaider was saying that others religion never really deal with the idea of a creator.
They were gods , old gods , elven gods , but there is no story about them building the world.
So the place for a "ultimate" god was kind of vacant.
Meaning the idea of the maker isn't exactly denied by other mythologies.
The golden city isn't denied neither.
It seems like in old tevinter , the maker was kind of known but nobody cares about Him.
Apparently , he was gone and they prefered the old gods.

Yes, isn't interesting that DG makes a point of saying neither elven nor dwarven lore contradicts the existence of a Creator. Their lore merely doesn't address the beginning of the world; for them, it has always been.

David Gaider wrote...

In terms of the elven religion's view of the Maker (or lack thereof), it
might be interesting to point out that the elven creation myth doesn't
stem from their gods. According to Dalish understanding, Elgar'nan and
Mythal, the Father and the Mother, did not create the world. They were
born of the world. The world was
always there, and while it doesn't indicate the presence of a single
creator that made the world it also doesn't necessarily contradict it.

David Gaider wrote...

Much like the elven myths, however, the dwarven notion of the Stone --
while anthropomorphized considerably into a sort-of deity, not
surprising considering the idea that the rock around the dwarves gives
them everything they exist in -- doesn't contradict the idea that a
creator might have created the Stone itself. They just don't believe
that. The Stone is right there, around them and supporting them, and
some creator...? Who is such a being to the dwarves?

Again i don't like the idea of a god more powerful than others , I'm not a big maker fan .
I think he's kind of boring actually ....elven gods are way more fun , they have betrayals and everything.
The maker just seems like a grumpy loner ...

This characterization of the Maker makes me smile!

[brushyourteeth]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Pretty much this. It's arguable whether Demons were the original source of blood magic -- there seems to be evidence to say they weren't -- but what is known is that Demons know blood magic and are certainly the quickest source to learn it, as the arcane is eternal in the Fade -- as Torpor will state when he remarks on the rarity of seeing two forgotten (by Thedosian lands) types of magick in the Fade.

One ehem TROLL ehem question....do demon have blood to use blood magic?

They do when they're possessing someone! 

[TEWR]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The Fade Duncan totally not fooled anyone...i mean, the player. lols He was dual wield weapon rogue, but the Fade one is sword and shield.

The real Duncan owned a shield. 

In one of the dialogue path he even said "i learned to be a Tranquil" lol

He said he learned to be tranquil, meaning content and at peace. Not Tranquil as in an emotionless husk.

[TEWR]

Nizaris1 wrote...

One ehem TROLL ehem question....do demon have blood to use blood magic?

Given that you can find an item called Demonic ichor, yes I'd say so. At least when they're in the real world and have a tangible form maybe. In the Fade they're literally just thoughts and emotions given a manifested form.

They also seem to leave a smell of sulphur in a person's blood -- as the blood pool outside of the Alienage Orphanage smells of rotten eggs, a smell indicative of sulphur and fairly common in real world demonic lore.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 août 2012 - 06:46 .

[TEWR]

Nizaris1 wrote...

lol okay....so how come they teach human/elf Blood Magic while they can only have blood when possessing someone? lol

Because the arcane is eternal in the Fade. They don't need to have blood in order to know how it's used.

But they have blood anyway when they're in the real world, as I just went over.

[dragonflight288]

But surely you're not saying that the common person has as much chance of being possessed as a mage has, right? Because only mages can become abominations, which are much more powerful that your garden-variety possessed person, which is one reason why demons seek mages out for possession and prefer them to other hosts.

Nope. Wasn't saying that. It's pretty well established through both gameplay and lore that mages are in greater danger. But the mage is in the most danger when they enter the Fade consciously, as everyone else cannot. The point I was making, however, was that when they don't enter the Fade consciously, the risk of them becoming abominations is so significantly reduced that it's just as likely as the blacksmith becoming possessed as the mage is. Not always true (as Asunder shows) but the chances of that happening aren't as big as the Chantry claims.

We also have Lady Herriman using obviously some sort of blood magic, when everyone around them makes it very clear she isn't a mage. But she did make a deal with a demon she encountered while expanding the estate, and that deal gave her power. And the demon then influenced the entire household.

Sylvans are demons possessing trees. Shades are demons possessing corpses. Werewolves started out with demons possessing wolves, and spreading the curse of lycanthrope after they became what they became (Witherfang.)

Even standard people can become possessed if they encounter a demon (Sophia Dryden.) So the point I was making was that the danger of mages becoming an abomination is nowhere near as great as the Chantry claims. But neither is it non-existant like some hardcore mage supporters, or hardcore anti-chantry people, may suggest.

Nizaris....

But still...only human worship the Maker, if it is really worshiped back then. Dwarves and Elves do not. To claim people worship the Maker before Andraste is just one side of view, what about other races?

City elves worship the Maker. See Pol in Act 2 of DA2. City Elf Origin has a Chantry priest marrying the couples.

The Dwarves is totally disconnected to the Fade, so The Maker is insignificant to them, meaning they are not created by The Maker and thus lead to The Maker is NOT God.

Brother Burkel was a follower of the Chantry and came to Orzammar to teach the Chant of Light. He needed the Shaperate's permission to hold a prayer service, and the Warden can offer to help out with that. The Dwarves of Orzammar don't care about the Fade or demons and abominations. They don't even have a religion.

By the way, about the Fade...in Mage Origin Harrowing, the very first time meeting the Mouse, the mage can ask..."Is this The Fade?"

Meaning the Mage totally unfamiliar with the Fade...they only enter the Fade AWAKE, not while sleeping

Again, the lore states very clearly that the Fade is a realm of dreams. And that everyone, mages and non-mages alike who aren't dwarves, go to the Fade every night to dream. But the thing that separates the mages from the non-mages is the capacity to use lyrium or blood magic to enter the Fade awake and aware. The Harrowing was likely the very first time the Mage in question entered the Fade consciously, and so didn't recognize it.

Add in the lore that since everything in the Fade is the expression of a thought (and the Tevinter Mages tried mapping the Fade, but it changed every time they went back there so it became a useless endeavor...the only constant being the Black City) that the mage may have gone to the Fade the first time but didn't recognize it during the Harrowing.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 10 août 2012 - 11:07 .

[Rinshikai10]

Just adding my two cents to this, I don't recall if it has been said in this discussion or not, but would the phylactery that the chantry use be a prime example of hypocrisy? Talking about how blood magic corrupts people yet they use it because it is useful.

[The Hierophant]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Just adding my two cents to this, I don't recall if it has been said in this discussion or not, but would the phylactery that the chantry use be a prime example of hypocrisy? Talking about how blood magic corrupts people yet they use it because it is useful.

Yup, phylacteries are implied to be a type of blood magic, and TEWR corrected me on the fact that the templar abilities are a form of magic too.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 10 août 2012 - 11:56 .

[TEWR]

The Hierophant wrote...
Yup, phylacteries are implied to be a type of blood magic

Not just implied. They actually are. Remember Gascard Dupuis took a vial of blood from Alessa and managed to use them as a means of tracking her down -- the same function as Circle phylacteries.

Granted, his method required a spell. But I'm inclined to assume that the Circle phylacteries are blood mixed with lyrium so as to eliminate the whole "You must know this particular spell using this vial of blood to be able to locate them" aspect, given that:

1) Lyrium glows
2) Phylacteries glow in the presence of the Mage they're from

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Well then, I'll happily provide you with evidence from Origins. Mage origin story, enter he Fade for your harrowing, and you talk to Sloth. The Sloth Demon says that the mage Warden at that very moment would seem more appetizing than other 'dreamers' as (s)he has entered aware.

It was interesting looking at this dialogue again, because Sloth is also completely aware of the fact that there are dreamers in the Fade. It's apparent that they just don't 'stick out' like aware mages do, or have the presence of mind to bug demons like him with questions.

Sloth concedes that some demons would find a mage with power and will tempting, as it provides an opportunity for possession. Suggesting, of course, that regular dreamers cannot be possessed, although they can still be tormented/fed off via nightmares.

[...]Demons have not been seen to have any direct influence on them when they dream naturally and aren't aware while in the Fade.

Well, I'll dispute that just a bit. The Demonic Possession codex say that demons can directly influence mortals who are sleeping: "...they pull the living across the Veil when they sleep and prey on their psyche with nightmares." The dreamer might not know it's a demon, they might not be adversely affected save for the duration of the nightmare itself, but it's still a direct influence.

Sloth also showed that demons are not unaware of regular dreamers. It looks like they can easily feed off any mortal soul in the Fade, as they are not invisible, thereby exerting a direct influence. But for possession, the potential host must be aware.

So unless you're a somiari, the mage in question isn't in any more danger than the King or the armorer. But everyone is in just as much danger of forcible possession or making a deal if you encounter a demon outside the Fade, just as much as the Mage is while in the Fade consciously.

*nods* That I agree with.

Gaider said that mages power, and not just magical power, is what attracts the more powerful demon. In the case of Connor, who could barely cast minor spells, him being the son of a powerful arl gave him a lot of political power that more than made up his lack of magical power, enough to attract a Desire Demon, one of the most powerful in the hierarchy. If someone used a ritual to summon a demon for a King, the King would be a very big target for possession due to his power.

Yes, I remember this discussion. Powerful demons are supposed to be intelligent enough to see the advantages of a host beyond their magical talent.

dragonflight288 wrote...

I understand, and I apologize.

No worries. Thanks for the interesting discussion, regardless.

[dragonflight288]

[...]Demons have not been seen to have any
direct influence on them when they dream naturally and aren't aware
while in the Fade.

Well, I'll dispute that just a bit. The Demonic Possession codex say that demons can directly influence mortals who are sleeping: "...they pull the living across the Veil when they sleep and prey on their psyche with nightmares."
The dreamer might not know it's a demon, they might not be adversely
affected save for the duration of the nightmare itself, but it's still a
direct influence.

Sloth also showed that demons are not unaware
of regular dreamers. It looks like they can easily feed off any mortal
soul in the Fade, as they are not invisible, thereby exerting a direct
influence. But for possession, the potential host must be aware.

Fair point. I suppose the point I wanted to make was, beyond giving someone a nightmare, observing their dream, or somehow shaping a dream the mortal in question most likely won't remember, there is no real direct influence on that person's life. But your point still stands.

dragonflight288 wrote...

I understand, and I apologize.

No worries. Thanks for the interesting discussion, regardless.

Happy to provide. I usually like to let the lore and the facts make my arguments for me, but sometimes my own interpretations or thoughts tend to get mixed up a little, or I misremember a codex entry, or I completely misunderstand the tone of the person I'm typing to (darn internet without intonations giving me hints of sarcasm, cheerfulness, or simple irony.)

Modifié par dragonflight288, 11 août 2012 - 05:22 .

[Ianamus]

R2s Muse wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

In terms of the elven religion's view of the Maker (or lack thereof), it
might be interesting to point out that the elven creation myth doesn't
stem from their gods. According to Dalish understanding, Elgar'nan and
Mythal, the Father and the Mother, did not create the world. They were
born of the world. The world was
always there, and while it doesn't indicate the presence of a single
creator that made the world it also doesn't necessarily contradict it.

This confuses me a bit, as I swear Merrill refers to "The creators" in some of her combat quotes. 

[Eternal Phoenix]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

lol Just like actual Church!

 

True.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Hypocrisy lead to corruption...

Anyway, The Hierophant, demon can teach Blood Magic, true, but doesn't mean they use Blood Magic

Or perhaps it was corruption that led to hypocrisy...

The plot thickens!