170 réponses à ce sujet

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Not calling for a nerf, just trying to gauge what people think about the Tac Cloak cooldown being proportional to amount of time in cloak, rather than a flat cooldown period like most powers?

This seems like a bit much to me.  It enables damage-speced Infiltrators to equip the heaviest weapons in the game without having to worry about cooldown periods, assuming the Infiltrator cloaks immediately before firing, they'll get the 3 second cooldown each time.  The majority of other classes in the game don't get this advantage.  Coupled with the huge damage bonus and the invisibility from tactical cloak, this additional benefit is going a bit overboard.

Why shouldn't Tac Cloak be subject to a flat cooldown like the majority of powers in the game?  Infiltrators are powerful enough as-is without this.

Perhaps the biggest problem I have with this is that it penalizes durations-speced Infiltrators.  Why should a duration-speced Infiltrator have to worry about weapon weight while the damage-speced Infiltrator doesn't?  This isn't right.

Curious what people think about this.  I am willing to consider alternative opinions, because there could be something I'm missing.  If you think it is reasonable for Infiltrator Tac Cloak cooldown to be based on cloak time, please explain why.

There's a tradeoff you need to make with most characters between weapon weight and the cooldown time of your powers.  Why should the Infiltrator be capable of bypassing this tradeoff?

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 08 août 2012 - 03:39 .

[NuclearTech76]

I used to think this was correct.

Equip a Javelin and claymore. Cloak and fire immediately then let me know about your CD.

[ToaOrka]

They kinda got ****ed over with the Tactical Cloak changes, so yeah, I think it's pretty reasonable. It'd totally screw the few duration infiltrators, and then weapons like the Claymore and Javelin would become nigh-useless on any infiltrator.

Short version: No.

[Rodia Driftwood]

ToaOrka wrote...

They kinda got ****ed over with the Tactical Cloak changes, so yeah, I think it's pretty reasonable. It'd totally screw the few duration infiltrators, and then weapons like the Claymore and Javelin would become nigh-useless on any infiltrator.

Short version: No.

Lol, your display picture is cool.

[Booshnickins]

It's one of the reasons they're so insanely popular. It's not something that can be fixed via the cloud/hot fixes they do every week either. It would need to be a part of an actual patch. It's clearly not meant to be that way. However I doubt it would get fixed due to the amount of emotional, suicidal children posting about how their class was ruined.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

I used to think this was correct.

Equip a Javelin and claymore. Cloak and fire immediately then let me know about your CD.

Is that not the way it works?

Booshnickins wrote...

It's one of the reasons they're so
insanely popular. It's not something that can be fixed via the cloud/hot
fixes they do every week either. It would need to be a part of an
actual patch. It's clearly not meant to be that way. However I doubt it
would get fixed due to the amount of emotional, suicidal children
posting about how their class was ruined.

LOL, you're probably right.

It's just odd when you compare Infiltrators with other classes.  Like, say you put heavy weapons on a Paladin.  In the same time that a Paladin can fire off a bunch of normal damage shots plus a single Energy Drain, the Salarian Infiltrator can go through 4 or 5 cloak cycles of double-damage shots with 4 or 5 Energy Drains.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 08 août 2012 - 03:49 .

[Alijah Green]

 

[Cyonan]

If they were going to remove the minimum cooldown on Cloak, they'd need to reduce the base cooldown on it. Infiltrators are still half combat based and they rely very heavily on their guns for damage. If you take that away, they're just less effective Soldiers that can go invisible for 5 seconds.

[Ultimate_Kardas]

So? What about a destroyer? He has no need for a cooldown either. He gets to carry any weapons he wants. And if you don't worry about putting down the pylon quickly, the demolisher is the same.

The fact is, there's a couple of classes that have no need for a cooldown. Deal with it.

[rmccowen]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Not calling for a nerf, just trying to gauge what people think about the Tac Cloak cooldown being proportional to amount of time in cloak, rather than a flat cooldown period like most powers?

It's weird. I suspect the reason it was initially implemented was so that there was a cost to running around cloaked for 15 seconds; the reason it hasn't been re-balanced is probably that it would require a code change. (But see below.)

Perhaps the biggest problem I have with this is that it penalizes durations-speced Infiltrators.  Why should a duration-speced Infiltrator have to worry about weapon weight while the damage-speced Infiltrator doesn't?  This isn't right.

Your reasoning is backward.

Cooldown is proportional to the amount of time you spend cloaked, with a minimum of three seconds (unless your TC cooldown is shorter than that). So a damage-spec F Quarian Infiltrator with a Viper X who stays cloaked for four seconds still only has the minimum cooldown of 3s, where the same Infiltrator with a Black Widow I probably has a cooldown between 4.5 and 5s.

If the same Infiltrator specs for duration instead, that four-second cloak is now a much smaller proportion of the total duration (35% instead of 80%)--so the BW cooldown shrinks to 3s.

IMO, the hit to TC duration was aimed at Infiltrators carrying multiple heavy weapons. Now, in order to get reasonable Cloak cooldown, they need either to spec for duration (and lose out on damage they were almost certainly getting pre-nerf), or drop some serious weight.

It's still strange, but it works much better these days than it did before.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Cyonan wrote...

If they were going to remove the minimum cooldown on Cloak, they'd need to reduce the base cooldown on it. Infiltrators are still half combat based and they rely very heavily on their guns for damage. If you take that away, they're just less effective Soldiers that can go invisible for 5 seconds.

A reduction in base cooldown would be fine.  The thing I find most absurd is that an Infiltrator doing objectives has a significantly longer cooldown than a Infiltrator firing off 180% damage Claymore shots plus a Prox Mine.

rmccowen wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Not
calling for a nerf, just trying to gauge what people think about the Tac
Cloak cooldown being proportional to amount of time in cloak, rather
than a flat cooldown period like most powers?

It's weird. I
suspect the reason it was initially implemented was so that there was a
cost to running around cloaked for 15 seconds; the reason it hasn't been
re-balanced is probably that it would require a code change. (But see
below.)

Perhaps the biggest problem
I have with this is that it penalizes durations-speced Infiltrators. 
Why should a duration-speced Infiltrator have to worry about weapon
weight while the damage-speced Infiltrator doesn't?  This isn't right.

Your reasoning is backward.

Cooldown
is proportional to the amount of time you spend cloaked, with a minimum
of three seconds (unless your TC cooldown is shorter than that). So a
damage-spec F Quarian Infiltrator with a Viper X who stays cloaked for
four seconds still only has the minimum cooldown of 3s, where the same
Infiltrator with a Black Widow I probably has a cooldown between 4.5 and
5s.

If the same Infiltrator specs for duration instead, that
four-second cloak is now a much smaller proportion of the total duration
(35% instead of 80%)--so the BW cooldown shrinks to 3s.

IMO, the
hit to TC duration was aimed at Infiltrators carrying multiple heavy
weapons. Now, in order to get reasonable Cloak cooldown, they need
either to spec for duration (and lose out on damage they were almost
certainly getting pre-nerf), or drop some serious weight.

It's still strange, but it works much better these days than it did before.

Oh okay, I didn't realize that was the case.  So you're saying that cooldown is based on time in Cloak relative to the total available cloak time.  But does this really matter for Infiltrators who only cloak for the split-second before firing?

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 08 août 2012 - 04:03 .

[Dendio1]

OP its probably a bug, but one they are apparently willing to live with

[Booshnickins]

Ultimate_Kardas wrote...

So? What about a destroyer? He has no need for a cooldown either. He gets to carry any weapons he wants. And if you don't worry about putting down the pylon quickly, the demolisher is the same.

The fact is, there's a couple of classes that have no need for a cooldown. Deal with it.

Yet the Demolisher's Pylon's cool down IS actually effected by the weapon weight. The Destroyer is meant to be a heavy weapon class and was built with that in mind. The Infiltrator isn't meant to be the same way at those two classes.

The fact is, you know it's a bug and are too dependant on it to be able to adapt if they actually fix it. Admit it.

[Cyonan]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

A reduction in base cooldown would be fine.  The thing I find most absurd is that an Infiltrator doing objectives has a significantly longer cooldown than a Infiltrator firing off 180% damage Claymore shots plus a Prox Mine.

You're talking about somebody using 10% of their cloak vs somebody using 100% of it.

On my duration Infiltrators, I can sit in cloak for 5 seconds with my Claymore and still only take a 3 second cooldown. My damage Infiltrators would lose their cloak and take a 6 second cooldown at that point.

A reduction in base cooldown would need to make it ~3 seconds anyway which wouldn't change much except duration Infiltrators doing objectives, and the people who carry 2 heavy weapons.

Booshnickins wrote...

The fact is, you know it's a bug and are too dependant on it to be able to adapt if they actually fix it. Admit it. 

 

It's not a bug, it's intended.

Modifié par Cyonan, 08 août 2012 - 04:05 .

[Mike 9987]

It kind of defeats the purpose of tactical cloak. It's meant for somebody to be invisible so he or she can line up the perfect shot without worrying about getting shot at, yet that person is punished for doing so. I don't see a reason for it.

[Riotstean]

Alijah Green wrote...

 

This^

[UKStory135]

Cyonan wrote...

If they were going to remove the minimum cooldown on Cloak, they'd need to reduce the base cooldown on it. Infiltrators are still half combat based and they rely very heavily on their guns for damage. If you take that away, they're just less effective Soldiers that can go invisible for 5 seconds.

That's what a lot of people on here want.

[Booshnickins]

Cyonan wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

A reduction in base cooldown would be fine.  The thing I find most absurd is that an Infiltrator doing objectives has a significantly longer cooldown than a Infiltrator firing off 180% damage Claymore shots plus a Prox Mine.

You're talking about somebody using 10% of their cloak vs somebody using 100% of it.

On my duration Infiltrators, I can sit in cloak for 5 seconds with my Claymore and still only take a 3 second cooldown. My damage Infiltrators would lose their cloak and take a 6 second cooldown at that point.

A reduction in base cooldown would need to make it ~3 seconds anyway which wouldn't change much except duration Infiltrators doing objectives, and the people who carry 2 heavy weapons.

Booshnickins wrote...

The fact is, you know it's a bug and are too dependant on it to be able to adapt if they actually fix it. Admit it. 

 

It's not a bug, it's intended.

I would like to see an actual post from a Developer that says that it's working exactly as intended.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Ultimate_Kardas wrote...

So? What about a destroyer? He has no need for a cooldown either. He gets to carry any weapons he wants. And if you don't worry about putting down the pylon quickly, the demolisher is the same.

The fact is, there's a couple of classes that have no need for a cooldown. Deal with it.

Soldier is the pure combat class.  If anyone shouldn't be affected by weapon weight, it's the Soldier.  But, weapon weight DOES matter for the majority of Soldiers.  The Destroyer is just 1 character in the class.

Let's look at someone like the Turian Soldier.

The Turian Soldier equips the Claymore and has a relatively long cooldown period for Marksman.  And he needs to choose between Marksman and Prox Mine. One or the other.

The Salarian Infiltrator can equip the Claymore, go into Cloak, fire the Claymore with +80% damage AND fire off a Proxy Mine with the minimum 3 sec cooldown.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Cyonan wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

A reduction in base cooldown would be fine.  The thing I find most absurd is that an Infiltrator doing objectives has a significantly longer cooldown than a Infiltrator firing off 180% damage Claymore shots plus a Prox Mine.

You're talking about somebody using 10% of their cloak vs somebody using 100% of it.

On my duration Infiltrators, I can sit in cloak for 5 seconds with my Claymore and still only take a 3 second cooldown. My damage Infiltrators would lose their cloak and take a 6 second cooldown at that point.

A reduction in base cooldown would need to make it ~3 seconds anyway which wouldn't change much except duration Infiltrators doing objectives, and the people who carry 2 heavy weapons.

Booshnickins wrote...

The fact is, you know it's a bug and are too dependant on it to be able to adapt if they actually fix it. Admit it. 

 

It's not a bug, it's intended.

They really aren't just using 10% of their Cloak, since Cloak can be used in different ways.  They're using Cloak for DPS vs. Cloak for pure Invisibility.  If the invisibility was the only benefit from using cloak, then the cooldown based on time spent in cloak would make more sense.

Mike 9987 wrote...

It kind of defeats the purpose of
tactical cloak. It's meant for somebody to be invisible so he or she can
line up the perfect shot without worrying about getting shot at, yet
that person is punished for doing so. I don't see a reason for it.

Unfortunately, Tac Cloak wasn't really implemented in this manner.  It can be used for invisibility or it can be used as a DPS factory, where the invisibility is little more than a side effect.  I'm not saying somebody should be punished for using Cloak for invisibility.  I'm actually saying the opposite.  I don't think a duration cloak should EVER have a higher cooldown than a minimum-duration DPS cloak.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 08 août 2012 - 04:17 .

[Cyonan]

Booshnickins wrote...

I would like to see an actual post from a Developer that says that it's working exactly as intended.

There is a variable in the Coalesced file that controls the minimum cooldown of Tactical Cloak. 

If they have a variable for it, it's safe to consider it not a bug when it happens.

Modifié par Cyonan, 08 août 2012 - 04:15 .

[Poison_Berrie]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Oh okay, I didn't realize that was the case.  So you're saying that cooldown is based on time in Cloak relative to the total available cloak time.  But does this really matter for Infiltrators who only cloak for the split-second before firing?

If you are really quick, you might be able to keep the 3 seconds, but with the way duration now works that window is small without duration and it will increase quickly. 
It's actually a reasonable solution to what was in my opinion one of the most glaring imbalance to TC.

If you got a full cooldown for cloaking base cooldown would have to drop quite a bit to compensate, which in itself isn't that bad a solution either.

[Booshnickins]

Cyonan wrote...

Booshnickins wrote...

I would like to see an actual post from a Developer that says that it's working exactly as intended.

There is a variable in the Coalesced file that controls the minimum cooldown of Tactical Cloak. 

If they have a variable for it, it's safe to consider it not a bug when it happens.

That's not a quote from a Developer now is it? Show me an honest to God quote from an actual Developer that says it's working as they had originally intended, and I'll let it go. Until then, I will view it as a bug.

[rmccowen]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Oh okay, I didn't realize that was the case.  So you're saying that cooldown is based on time in Cloak relative to the total available cloak time.  But does this really matter for Infiltrators who only cloak for the split-second before firing?

No... as long as that's all they ever do. As long as they never screw up, never need time to set up a shot, never turn it on to get to an objective or fallen squadmate, never turn it on to manage aggro during a... tactical repositioning, and otherwise never have it on for a significant length of time--then no, they don't care about the cooldown at all. Which is why it's weird.

But that's a high-risk scenario. I don't doubt that there are players who are that fantastically consistent, but there certainly aren't many of them. And if you do mess up, even a little... well, even one second is still about 20% of the 5.2s duration of Cloak. If your cloak has a 15-second cooldown, then any time you go over that one-second mark you're rapidly accumulating cooldown time.

[GroverA125]

I believe that there should be some form of deterrent from consistently using the heavier sniper rifles and weapons. Not saying remove that system, but I'd ask that they change the cooldown so that heavy rifles will have a noticably longer cooldown (not 8 seconds, maybe around 0.3, just enough so that if you are using a light/midweight sniper rifle, you'd be getting one extra shot every 10 or so shots), and decrease the cooldown significantly for the lightweight sniper rifles (as to make them more appealing, they would be able to flick from breaking cloak to engaging cloak faster than a midweight or heavy sniper rifle).

Because let's be honest, there's very little point equipping a Raptor or Viper when you have one of the heavier, stronger sniper rifles. All you really get is quicker other-cooldown powers and a bit less delay if you spend all your time in cloak.