170 réponses à ce sujet

[AshirahTSparkle]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Shia Luck wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Shia Luck wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

I used to think this was correct.

Equip a Javelin and claymore. Cloak and fire immediately then let me know about your CD.

An extreme example of the two heaviest guns in the game doesn't say anything. Your CD must be +150%+ with that loadout. That will mess up even an infiltrator. The OP's statement about lower than normal CDs holds in the vast majority of cases. Just because it's the same rule does not mean it is logical to reach the same consequence in every situation.

It says that the CD is weight dependent.

I don't think that has ever been in doubt has it? OP is talking about the way with most loudouts you can cancel the effect of the heavy weight if you adopt a TC>fire immediatly strategy, no?

Anyway, as I said, I think inf is fine the way it is and can't see any reason to make it play exxactly the same as the other classes. Variety is fun!

Desperatly searching for things to complain and argue about just makes this forum a sorry place. 

Have fun

Yes, variety is fun.  And many characters are severely underplayed because they lack a distinct advantage that is on par with the advantages of certain other classes in terms of utility.

Booshnickins wrote...

I love how I'm being called stubborn
simply for asking you guys to show me proof that's backed by a
developer. I guess you people think that's how it works in court cases.
The prosecutor walks in and states their case, then provides no further
evidence to back their claim and then rests. Sorry that's not how it
works.

I would simply like to see a developer back up the claim
that it IS in fact working as intended. To me it just doesn't seem that
way. Having a random guy on the internet say he looked at some coding on
his computer is in no way proof. All of you are so sure you're correct,
yet nobody has any concrete evidence to prove that. So how am I being
any more stubborn than the rest of you?

Some people are so attached to their favorite things that that can't have a reasonable discussion about its true advantages and disadvantages.  To them, it's obviously working as intended, simply because they use it.

I am sorry.. what? There's a lot less more infiltrators now and it still takes more skill to use it fully. Reasonable discussion? Sorry, but it's you guys who aren't and who are just picking on things just so you feel better about yourselves.. seriously people...

[AwesomeDudex64]

Oh come on.. I used a Javelin for the first time in ages yesterday and my cooldown went down the dumps.

[Si-Shen]

I play Infiltriators a fair bit and if you use a heavier gun the cool downs arn't that fast, and concidering you are open when you reload its not all that out of proportion.

[Drunkencelt]

Booshnickins wrote...

Ultimate_Kardas wrote...

So? What about a destroyer? He has no need for a cooldown either. He gets to carry any weapons he wants. And if you don't worry about putting down the pylon quickly, the demolisher is the same.

The fact is, there's a couple of classes that have no need for a cooldown. Deal with it.

Yet the Demolisher's Pylon's cool down IS actually effected by the weapon weight. The Destroyer is meant to be a heavy weapon class and was built with that in mind. The Infiltrator isn't meant to be the same way at those two classes.

The fact is, you know it's a bug and are too dependant on it to be able to adapt if they actually fix it. Admit it.

Typhoon nerf check,
Pirhanna nerf check.
Hey Infiltrators, heres Johnny!


Seriously, they already received their huge nerfs. This is why snipers mostly suck and you see inf forced into these short cloak claymore specs. You wanted your cake, got your orginal nerfs, and now you don't want to eat it too?

[Drunkencelt]

On a side note, I would simply prefer a buff or fix to certain weak classes. I would like to see tech explosions changed to equal biotic explosions instead of their bastard cousin. Sentinels reworked, vanguards fixed, engineer's buffed or atleast fix incenerate.

[OblivionDawn]

It's working as intended, I see no problem.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

lonefedaykin wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Why don't you try playing one of the many other classes in the game?  Almost exclusively playing with a single character is a good way to get a skewed point-of-view.

I actually do play with many characters/classes, so I have some understanding of the differences between them, including the differences between a damage-speced and a duration-speced infiltrator.  And this is what I noticed, as an example...

Play as damage-speced Geth Infiltrator w/ GPS.  Cloak, prox mine, fire until clip empty, reload.  You're ready to cloak again and repeat the process.  80% damage buff on multiple GPS shots + proxy mine = short cooldown.

Play as duration-speced infiltrator. Use full cloak duration for objective = long cooldown.

Basically, in the time it takes you to cloak for full duration and cooldown, you can do several cloak for damage + cooldown cycles.

I don't think you should be penalized for using duration to its full capability vs. using cloak for DPS to its full capability.

You, on the other hand, probably have no idea what I'm talkign about.  The only thing flashing through your mind is "Don't touch my Infiltrator!!!!1" It's really silly.

Forgive me for arriving a little late (to this half) of the discussion, but I'm not really sure what you are asking for with this thread. For a damage spec infiltrator or a duration spec infiltrator they can use TC exactly the same IF you treat it the same way. For example, if they both fire a weapon or a power right after cloaking is it not the same cooldown for both? The difference being that on  a duration Infiltrator you don't get the 80% damage buff, correct?

So really the the difference between the infiltrators is the tradeoff between greater damage and thus higher dps or greater survivability/utility? A damage spec infiltrator is assuming a greater risk as they go for a revive, an objective, or a "tactical repositioning." The duration Infiltrator trades this risk for greater survivability at the cost of a longer cooldown when TC is used for its full duration. This really is the case of higher risk = higher reward, but a duration Infiltrator can still cloak, fire, cloak, fire the exact same way a damage Infiltrator does.

To me it sounds like you are asking for a duration Infiltrator to be able to run across the map while under cloak, and be able to recloak after only a short cooldown. Do you really expect to cap an objective while under cloak and then turn around and cloak again to cap another one?

No, I'm saying that the  Infiltrator is already compensated for his "greater risk" with the 80% damage buff.  This is the reward.  But the reality is he gets the additional reward of a shorter cooldown, based on the way that people tend to play the DPS infiltrator.  Which is using cloak for as short a time period as possible.

A) A DPS infiltrator who cloaks for 2 seconds will have a shorter cooldown AND 80% damage buff.

A duration infiltrator who cloaks for 8 seconds will have a longer cooldown but only 40% damage buff.

I'm arguing that 's longer cloak duration is balanced by the smaller damage buff.  I don't believe he should have a longer cooldown on top of that.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

.458 - I have no idea what you're talking about with this whole "malicious" thing, but please give it a rest. You have been misrepresenting my position through this entire thread, made all sorts of assumption about what my intent is, how "selfish" I'm being, etc. It's enough already.

[billy the squid]

Booshnickins wrote...

Ultimate_Kardas wrote...

So? What about a destroyer? He has no need for a cooldown either. He gets to carry any weapons he wants. And if you don't worry about putting down the pylon quickly, the demolisher is the same.

The fact is, there's a couple of classes that have no need for a cooldown. Deal with it.

Yet the Demolisher's Pylon's cool down IS actually effected by the weapon weight. The Destroyer is meant to be a heavy weapon class and was built with that in mind. The Infiltrator isn't meant to be the same way at those two classes.

The fact is, you know it's a bug and are too dependant on it to be able to adapt if they actually fix it. Admit it.

Such a pillock. Why then are the anti material rifles some of the heaviest weapons in the game and the Tac cloak given a SR specific damage bonus in ev. 6 if it wasn't designed to not function in the same way as weight to cooldown ratio and to function via a proportional coolddown method.

Other classes can use the SR's but none of them give you the extra second to line up a shot without taking fire and get a damage boost, all be it nerfed, before putting a round into the target. And none of them have the Sniper specific damage boost in their powers.

[lonefedaykin]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

No, I'm saying that the  Infiltrator is already compensated for his "greater risk" with the 80% damage buff.  This is the reward.  But the reality is he gets the additional reward of a shorter cooldown, based on the way that people tend to play the DPS infiltrator.  Which is using cloak for as short a time period as possible.

A) A DPS infiltrator who cloaks for 2 seconds will have a shorter cooldown AND 80% damage buff.

A duration infiltrator who cloaks for 8 seconds will have a longer cooldown but only 40% damage buff.

I'm arguing that 's longer cloak duration is balanced by the smaller damage buff.  I don't believe he should have a longer cooldown on top of that.

Ah, okay. I see what you are saying now. Thank you for clarifying that for me. I appreciate it, but allow me to disagree. It seems to me that there is a tradeoff to be had which, to answer the thread title, does seem reasonable to me.

If both infiltrators only cloak for ~2 seconds and fire, then they both have the same cooldown (assuming their loadout is the same) but the DPS Infiltrator does more damage. As you've stated, this is the main way the DPS Infiltrator is to be played. So for this approach you weigh greater damage against a shorter cloak duration, which backs you into a corner if you ever have to use your cloak to help out the team or as an "Oh S**t" button to get yourself to safety or manuver to revive a teammate. Obviously this is not impossible, (I do it all the time) but it does make it more difficult.

+Damage
-Cloak Duration
-Utility to the team
-Long cooldown if short cloak is taken to full duration

For a duration Infiltrator, you can still play the exact same way as the DPS Infiltrator but with less damage per shot from cloak. This is offset by a long cloak duration allowing you to be of more utility to the team, but it is also offset by a longer cooldown for a much longer time spent in cloak. 

+Cloak Duration
+Utility to the team
-Damage
-Long cooldown if long cloak is taken to full duration

I'd say that it depends on your playstyle for what you prefer. DPS Infiltrators already have a poor reputation when it comes to teamwork, but not all are like that. If you want to have greater utility to the team for objectives/revives, go for duration. If you want greater utility through damage, go for damage increase. Furthermore, on the PC at least you can cancel your cloak at any time by hitting the cloak button again once the short global cooldown for power use has finished, so unless you really need the full cloak duration, canceling the long cloak when you're out of danger gives yet another form of flexability to the duration Infiltrator.

If you disagree, that's okay, but I think this is really a difference of opinion, and I respect your right to have a different opinion from me.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Drunkencelt wrote...

Booshnickins wrote...

Ultimate_Kardas wrote...

So? What about a destroyer? He has no need for a cooldown either. He gets to carry any weapons he wants. And if you don't worry about putting down the pylon quickly, the demolisher is the same.

The fact is, there's a couple of classes that have no need for a cooldown. Deal with it.

Yet the Demolisher's Pylon's cool down IS actually effected by the weapon weight. The Destroyer is meant to be a heavy weapon class and was built with that in mind. The Infiltrator isn't meant to be the same way at those two classes.

The fact is, you know it's a bug and are too dependant on it to be able to adapt if they actually fix it. Admit it.

Typhoon nerf check,
Pirhanna nerf check.
Hey Infiltrators, heres Johnny!


Seriously, they already received their huge nerfs. This is why snipers mostly suck and you see inf forced into these short cloak claymore specs. You wanted your cake, got your orginal nerfs, and now you don't want to eat it too?

It's funny -  about 10 people have complained about the nerfers in this thread, but there have been 0 nerf requests.

[N7-RedFox]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Not calling for a nerf, just trying to gauge what people think about the Tac Cloak cooldown being proportional to amount of time in cloak, rather than a flat cooldown period like most powers?

This seems like a bit much to me.  It enables damage-speced Infiltrators to equip the heaviest weapons in the game without having to worry about cooldown periods, assuming the Infiltrator cloaks immediately before firing, they'll get the 3 second cooldown each time.  The majority of other classes in the game don't get this advantage.  Coupled with the huge damage bonus and the invisibility from tactical cloak, this additional benefit is going a bit overboard.

Why shouldn't Tac Cloak be subject to a flat cooldown like the majority of powers in the game?  Infiltrators are powerful enough as-is without this.

Perhaps the biggest problem I have with this is that it penalizes durations-speced Infiltrators.  Why should a duration-speced Infiltrator have to worry about weapon weight while the damage-speced Infiltrator doesn't?  This isn't right.

Curious what people think about this.  I am willing to consider alternative opinions, because there could be something I'm missing.  If you think it is reasonable for Infiltrator Tac Cloak cooldown to be based on cloak time, please explain why.

There's a tradeoff you need to make with most characters between weapon weight and the cooldown time of your powers.  Why should the Infiltrator be capable of bypassing this tradeoff?

Spiteful, lying, jealous. Need i go on? Stop whining coz others do well. Godamn tall poppy syndrome

Modifié par CaptainTeabag, 09 août 2012 - 12:18 .

[TenmaTaro]

So much stupid going around in this thread.

[lonefedaykin]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

It's funny -  about 10 people have complained about the nerfers in this thread, but there have been 0 nerf requests.

I agree that while no person in this thread has called for a TC or an Inf nerf directly, you have to admit that if you altered the way TC works currently on especially DPS Infiltrators, it would be percieved as a nerf.

If you tied the cooldown of TC to the weapon weight, then the heaviest snipers/shotguns would definetly feel nerf'd as they would have their damage output lowered considerably. This is the very nature of a nerf.

Now, you and I have been having a great discussion about the use of TC on both damage and duration Infiltrators, so perhaps what you might be looking for is a duration Infiltrator buff rather than what you would have to admit would be a DPS Infiltrator nerf.

CaptainTeabag wrote...

Spiteful, lying, jealous. Need i go on? 

This kind of thing isn't necessary.. Especially what you wrote before the edit. Please refrain from posts like that in the future.

[DeathIsHere]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

DeathIsHere wrote...

Booshnickins wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

A reduction in base cooldown would be fine.  The thing I find most absurd is that an Infiltrator doing objectives has a significantly longer cooldown than a Infiltrator firing off 180% damage Claymore shots plus a Prox Mine.

You're talking about somebody using 10% of their cloak vs somebody using 100% of it.

On my duration Infiltrators, I can sit in cloak for 5 seconds with my Claymore and still only take a 3 second cooldown. My damage Infiltrators would lose their cloak and take a 6 second cooldown at that point.

A reduction in base cooldown would need to make it ~3 seconds anyway which wouldn't change much except duration Infiltrators doing objectives, and the people who carry 2 heavy weapons.

Booshnickins wrote...

The fact is, you know it's a bug and are too dependant on it to be able to adapt if they actually fix it. Admit it. 

 

It's not a bug, it's intended.

I would like to see an actual post from a Developer that says that it's working exactly as intended.

There's been multiple. Go equip a javelin and a claymore and use Flamer on a Vorcha Sentinel/Soldier, then hit the button again quicky. Tell me how long your cooldown is (it'll be the lowest possible cooldown, likely 3 seconds). This is a feature. Why would you be forced to take the full recharge speed of a 5-10 second long power if you only use it for a second or two?

Just saying, the fact that you're also calling somebody out and saying they're "dependent" on it and asking for them to admit it doesn't paint you in a good light. Do you know that person? Have you played with them? Or are you just attacking them because they disagree with you? I hate that.

Well, this is a perfect comparison - Flamer and Tac Cloak.

The DPS capability of Flamer is directly dependent on the time Flamer is turned on.  You turn Flamer on for 4 seconds - you do more total damage than if you turn flamer on for 2 seconds.  Thus, cooldown based on time active makes sense.

However, the damage boost from Tac Cloak applies regardless of how long cloak is active.  You have it active for 1 second - you get the same damage buff as you get from having it active for 6 seconds.  A variable cooldown is appropriate for cloak invisibility, but not for the damage boost, which is independent of time active.

It is a perfect comparison because the mechanic is the same. Damage wasn't considered, it's just the mechanic to show that it's not a bug.

Also, I'm soorry, but if you think TC is just a damage boost you can take damage and have fun with your cooldown. Myself? Even though I play mainly a sniper who most would expect to sit and camp out with my damage spec'd TC, I go duration. I take it to 6, get the sniper damage boost at rank 6 but use the duration as a way to help my team as a whole. I rush to objectives during enable/disable missions and when somebody goes down I make the revive as quickly as I possibly can. TC's use isn't defined as "Get a massive damage boost." so it should definitely have a variable cooldown. I don't want a 7 second cooldown if I'm only in cloak for 2 seconds to make a quick revive or something.

TL;DR: TC's usage benefits from time as you're invisible for 5+ seconds. If you just cloak and take your shot, awesome. You got the damage bonus. But you didn't get the full benefit of cloak (the extended invisibility and benefits it brings) so your cooldown should reflect that.

[xabkish]

Not really interested in discussing this particular topic, so soryy, didn't even read.

But there's one thing I'd like to bring up: if it worked the other way around, Infiltrators would be able to overcome the minimum of 3 seconds of TC cooldown.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

lonefedaykin wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

No, I'm saying that the  Infiltrator is already compensated for his "greater risk" with the 80% damage buff.  This is the reward.  But the reality is he gets the additional reward of a shorter cooldown, based on the way that people tend to play the DPS infiltrator.  Which is using cloak for as short a time period as possible.

A) A DPS infiltrator who cloaks for 2 seconds will have a shorter cooldown AND 80% damage buff.

A duration infiltrator who cloaks for 8 seconds will have a longer cooldown but only 40% damage buff.

I'm arguing that 's longer cloak duration is balanced by the smaller damage buff.  I don't believe he should have a longer cooldown on top of that.

Ah, okay. I see what you are saying now. Thank you for clarifying that for me. I appreciate it, but allow me to disagree. It seems to me that there is a tradeoff to be had which, to answer the thread title, does seem reasonable to me.

If both infiltrators only cloak for ~2 seconds and fire, then they both have the same cooldown (assuming their loadout is the same) but the DPS Infiltrator does more damage. As you've stated, this is the main way the DPS Infiltrator is to be played. So for this approach you weigh greater damage against a shorter cloak duration, which backs you into a corner if you ever have to use your cloak to help out the team or as an "Oh S**t" button to get yourself to safety or manuver to revive a teammate. Obviously this is not impossible, (I do it all the time) but it does make it more difficult.

+Damage
-Cloak Duration
-Utility to the team
-Long cooldown if short cloak is taken to full duration

For a duration Infiltrator, you can still play the exact same way as the DPS Infiltrator but with less damage per shot from cloak. This is offset by a long cloak duration allowing you to be of more utility to the team, but it is also offset by a longer cooldown for a much longer time spent in cloak. 

+Cloak Duration
+Utility to the team
-Damage
-Long cooldown if long cloak is taken to full duration

I'd say that it depends on your playstyle for what you prefer. DPS Infiltrators already have a poor reputation when it comes to teamwork, but not all are like that. If you want to have greater utility to the team for objectives/revives, go for duration. If you want greater utility through damage, go for damage increase. Furthermore, on the PC at least you can cancel your cloak at any time by hitting the cloak button again once the short global cooldown for power use has finished, so unless you really need the full cloak duration, canceling the long cloak when you're out of danger gives yet another form of flexability to the duration Infiltrator.

If you disagree, that's okay, but I think this is really a difference of opinion, and I respect your right to have a different opinion from me.

Thanks for the respectful tone of this post.  I'm fine with you disagreeing.  This is why I asked the question in the first place.  I don't have as strong opinion about this as before, so it's probably fine as-is.  I'm at least reconsidering given the information you and some others have posted.

It's unfortunate that people have such a hard time disagreeing with each other while remaining respectful.  The two things shouldn't be mutually exclusive. 

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 09 août 2012 - 01:05 .

[CmnDwnWrkn]

CaptainTeabag wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Not calling for a nerf, just trying to gauge what people think about the Tac Cloak cooldown being proportional to amount of time in cloak, rather than a flat cooldown period like most powers?

This seems like a bit much to me.  It enables damage-speced Infiltrators to equip the heaviest weapons in the game without having to worry about cooldown periods, assuming the Infiltrator cloaks immediately before firing, they'll get the 3 second cooldown each time.  The majority of other classes in the game don't get this advantage.  Coupled with the huge damage bonus and the invisibility from tactical cloak, this additional benefit is going a bit overboard.

Why shouldn't Tac Cloak be subject to a flat cooldown like the majority of powers in the game?  Infiltrators are powerful enough as-is without this.

Perhaps the biggest problem I have with this is that it penalizes durations-speced Infiltrators.  Why should a duration-speced Infiltrator have to worry about weapon weight while the damage-speced Infiltrator doesn't?  This isn't right.

Curious what people think about this.  I am willing to consider alternative opinions, because there could be something I'm missing.  If you think it is reasonable for Infiltrator Tac Cloak cooldown to be based on cloak time, please explain why.

There's a tradeoff you need to make with most characters between weapon weight and the cooldown time of your powers.  Why should the Infiltrator be capable of bypassing this tradeoff?

Spiteful, lying, jealous. Need i go on? Stop whining coz others do well. Godamn tall poppy syndrome

Are you talking to me?  Spiteful, lying, jealous?  I play Infiltrator frequently, speced both ways, and do quite well with it.  I play with a wide variety of classes and specs, actually. 

I'm sorry you're so upset.  Maybe you had a bad day?  Please don't take it out on me though - it had nothing to do with whatever you're angry about.

[hljhodr_sunda]

I'm not an infiltrator and I can never be, the play style is something I just can't get... But my question to you OP is, why does this bother you so much? You are very passionate while talking about this being "overboard". It's how TC was designed, and even I, a vanguard, knows this. The devs wouldn't make a design oversight as influential as this and just not patch it with the first patch they released. If it want there intention to have children set this way, then they have a really big problem in their QA department.... Btw, they don't have a problem in QA....

Modifié par hljhodr_sunda, 09 août 2012 - 01:24 .

[hljhodr_sunda]

PS, I wish the forums were more mobile friendly D:

[lonefedaykin]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Thanks for the respectful tone of this post.  I'm fine with you disagreeing.  This is why I asked the question in the first place.  I don't have as strong opinion about this as before, so it's probably fine as-is.  I'm at least reconsidering given the information you and some others have posted.

It's unfortunate that people have such a hard time disagreeing with each other while remaining respectful.  The two things shouldn't be mutually exclusive. 

You're welcome, and thank you for the discussion. I agree 100% that people should be able to disagree while remaining civil about it.

To be honest, you brought up some good points that got me thinking.  I know that Infiltrators have a weapon capacity bonus option in the race tree, but I wonder if adding a small weapon capacity bonus alongside the +150% duration option under the TC tree would solve the heavier weapon issue you brought up for duration Infiltrators. It seems like this would solve the problem of carrying a heavier weapon load while still retaining the revive/objective utility of a duration Infiltrator. This wouldn't upset anything with DPS Infiltrators, and as you pointed out, loadout weight doesn't bother them as much when they are under normal operation (cloak, fire, rinse, repeat).

Just another point to think about.