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[GodlessPaladin]

So there's a lot of talk about balance changes. And frankly, a lot of that talk is hysterical nonsense that has little to do with how the game has actually changed. I often see comments about how nerfs occur all the time and are more significant than buffs, or that no buffed weapon has ever become effective.

It's time to set the record straight.

Numbers are rounded to the nearest hundredth. Sustained DPS is calculated assuming reload cancelling (which actually makes the magazine buffs look more insignificant than if the math didn't assume perfect reload cancelling).

WEAPONS

COLLECTOR ASSAULT RIFLE:
Original Damage: [44.3-55.4]
Spare Ammo: [280-350]
Weight: [2.0-1.4]
Current Damage: [55.4-69.2] (+25% of original damage)
Burst DPS: (+25%)
Sustained DPS: (+25%)
Spare Ammo: [308-392] (+12% spare ammo)
Weight: [1.6-1.2] (Weight reduced by 20 (max weight reduced 40))

FALCON ASSAULT RIFLE:
Original Damage: [215.0-268.8]
Spare Ammo: from [24-34]
Current Damage: [279.2-349.0] (+30% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 290.83 (Up to -57% Unsure of original refire time so it may be a smaller nerf than this)
Sustained DPS: 227.73 (Up to -38% Unsure of original refire time so it may be a smaller nerf than this)
Increased refire time on the Falcon to 0.65 seconds (not sure what it was originally).
Decreased rate of fire from 125 to 50 (Effectively increases firing time by 3.2 seconds if the original had no min refire time, and affects DPS)
Spare Ammo: [18-28] (-18% spare ammo, but you actually have more firing time due to the ROF decrease)

In other words, the Falcon got one of the biggest nerfs in the game.

GETH PULSE RIFLE:
Original Damage: [21.9-27.4]
Spare Ammo: [400-500]
Current Damage: [24.1-30.1] (+10% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 451.5 (+10%)
Sustained DPS: 361.38 (+10%)
Weight: [1.0-0.5] (Minimum weight decreased by 40)
Spare Ammo: [480-640] (+28% spare ammo)

HARRIER ASSAULT RIFLE:
-Encumbrance increased from [1.75-1.0] to [1.75-1.25] (Minimum weight increased by 25)

In other words, you can no longer get a +200% weight with a Harrier (You could before with some classes, like the Asari Justicar).

MATTOCK ASSAULT RIFLE:
Original Damage: [76.1-95.2]
Current Damage: [103.6-129.5] (+36% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 971.25 (+36%)
Sustained DPS: 739.12 (+36%)

In other words, the Mattock's sustained DPS went up about as much as the Falcon's went down.

PHAESTON ASSAULT RIFLE:
Original Damage: [29.7-37.2]
Spare Ammo: [300-375]
Weight: [1.5-0.9] (04/17)
Current Damage: [41.9-52.4] (+41% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 524 (+41%)
Sustained DPS: 462.08 (+41%)
Spare Ammo: [350-450] (+20% spare ammo)
Weight: [1.35-0.8] (Minimum weight decreased by 10)

In other words, the Phaeston's sustained DPS went up more than the Falcon or Krysae's went down. Its Burst DPS also went up about the same as the Krysae's went down (perhaps more because of "double shotting"). It also got more spare ammo added than the Falcon or Krysae lost, and got a weight decrease. This buff is simply outright larger than the largest nerfs in the game.

PROTHEAN PARTICLE BEAM:
Original Damage: [17.2-21.4]
Current Damage: [19.2-25.8] (+21% of original damage)

REVENANT ASSAULT RIFLE:
Original Damage: [47.6-59.6]
Weight: [2.0-1.4]
Spare Ammo: [300-375]
Current Damage: [63.6-79.5] (+33% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 861.25 (+33%)
Sustained DPS: 694.48 (+33%)
Spare Ammo: [360-480] (+28% spare ammo)
Weight: [1.8-1.25] (Minimum weight decreased by 15)

In other words, the Revenant's sustained DPS went up almost as much as the Falcon's went down. It also got more spare ammo added than the Falcon lost, and got a weight decrease.

SABER ASSAULT RIFLE:
Original Damage: [350.1-437.6]
Weight: [2.0-1.4]
Spare Ammo: [40-50]
Current Damage: [427.9-534.8] (+22% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 713.07 (+22%)
Sustained DPS:  583.68 (+22%)
[/b]Spare Ammo: [40-56] (+12% spare ammo)
Weight: [1.7-1.4] (Minimum weight is the same, but max weight lowered to make it more accessible at low levels)

N7 TYPHOON ASSAULT RIFLE:
- Distance Penetration decreased from 100cm to 25cm (e.g. same as Black Widow anti-materiel rifle)
- Damage multiplier when fully ramped up decreased from [2.0x] to [1.5x] (I am not 100% sure where this puts it at in terms of damage because I'm not 100% sure of precisely how each of the N7 Typhoon's unique mechanics work).

VINDICATOR ASSAULT RIFLE:
Damage unchanged (got a nerf which was then reversed)
Weight: Encumbrance increased from [1.0-0.5] to [1.25-0.7] (Minimum weight increased by 20)

BLACK WIDOW SNIPER RIFLE
- Encumbrance decreased from [2.5-2.0] to [2.3-2.0] (Minimum weight is the same, but max weight lowered to make it more accessible at low levels)

INCISOR SNIPER RIFLE
Original Damage: [67.8-84.8]
Current Damage: [72.6-92.2] (+10% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 671.76 (+10%)
Sustained DPS: 497.45 (+10%)

INDRA SNIPER RIFLE
Original Damage: [47.9 - 59.9]
Weight: [1.25-0.7]
Current Damage: [72.6-92.2] (+54% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 768.33 (+54%)
Sustained DPS: 617.96 (+54%)
Weight: [1.0-0.7] (Minimum weight is the same, but max weight lowered to make it more accessible at low levels)

In other words, the Indra has gotten a bigger DPS buff than the Falcon and Krysae's DPS nerfs.

JAVELIN SNIPER RIFLE
Original Damage: [795.0-993.7]
Weight: [2.5-2.0]
Spare ammo: [9-19]
Current Damage: [1030.5-1288.1] (+30% of original damage)
Spare ammo: [5-15] (-21% spare ammo)
Weight: [2.7-2.4] (Weight increased by 40)

[/b]The Javelin got heavier and stingier with ammo, but got a full 30% damage buff. It also got characters that gave it a damage multiplier (Geth weapon bonus) and the ability to pierce 10% of the shield gate on Gold and Platinum.

KRYSAE SNIPER RIFLE:
Original Damage: [531.2-664.0]
Spare ammo: [9-21]
Current Damage: [429.0-548.0] (-17% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 319.67 (-42%) (This number does not take into account "double shotting" which mitigates the impact of ROF somewhat)
Sustained DPS: 252.04 [/b] (-37%) This number does not take into account "double shotting" which mitigates the impact of ROF somewhat)
Rate of fire decreased from [50] to [35]
Recoil Increased from [5.0] to [10.0]
Zoom Recoil Increased from [3.0] to [5.0]
Spare ammo: [9-18] (-17% spare ammo)

In other words, this is one of the biggest nerfs in the game.

VIPER SNIPER RIFLE
Original Damage: [229.4-286.7]
Weight: [1.5-0.9]
Current Damage: [265.6-332.0] (+16% of original damage)
Weight: [1.25-0.7] (Minimum weight decreased by 20)

ARC PISTOL:
Original Damage: [56.6-71.1]
Weight: [1.5-0.9]
Current Damage: [77.2-96.5] (+36% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 884.58 (+36%)
Sustained DPS: 603.5 (+36%)
Weight: [1.1-0.6] (Minimum weight increased by 30)

In other words, the Arc Pistol's sustained DPS went up about as much as the Falcon's went down, and its weight got knocked down by 30.

CARNIFEX HEAVY PISTOL:
- Encumbrance increased from [0.75-0.35] to [1.0-0.5] (Minimum weight increased by 15)

In other words, it still gives you 200% on a caster build... it will just cost more as a sidearm.

EAGLE HEAVY PISTOL:
Original Damage: [42.4 - 53.1]
Spare ammo: [180-225]
Current Damage: [74.9-93.7] (+76% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 624.67 (+76%)
Sustained DPS: 506.49 (+88%!)
Clip size increased from 18 to 24 (Effectively increases the firing time by 0.9 seconds and affects sustained DPS)
Spare ammo: [192-240] (+7% ammo capacity)

In other words, the Eagle has gotten a truly enormous buff dwarfing the biggest nerfs in the game, nearly doubling its damage output from its original version. And it still kinda sucks because the original Eagle was really that bad.

PALADIN HEAVY PISTOL:
Original Damage: [350.9-438.7]
Weight: [0.75-0.35]
Spare ammo: [16-26]
Current Damage: [424.9-531.1] (+21% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 885.17 (+21%)
Sustained DPS: 603.5 (+11%)
Magazine Size decreased from 4 to 3 (Effectively decreases firing time by 0.6 seconds and affects sustained DPS)
Weight: [1.25-0.7] (Minimum weight increased by 35)
Spare ammo: [21-33] (+27% spare ammo)

The Paladin's changes are a mixed bag that seem aimed at differentiating it from the Carnifex instead of just having it be a straight upgrade. It currently handily outdamages the Black Widow (except in the hands of Infiltrators) while being far lighter.

SCORPION HEAVY PISTOL
Encumbrance reduced from [1.5-0.9] to [1.1-0.6] (Minimum weight decreased by 30)

The Scorpion was pretty sweet before, and then it got kicked down to sidearm weight.

TALON HEAVY PISTOL
Original Damage: [72.1-90.1]
Weight: [1.5-0.9]
Spare ammo: [24-34]
Current Damage: [93.7-117.1] (+30% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 878.25 (1317.38 vs shields/barriers) (+30%)
Sustained DPS: 695.64 (1043.47 vs shields/barriers) (+30%)
Weight: [1.1-0.6] (Minimum weight decreased by 30)
Spare ammo: [24-36] (+6% spare ammo)

In short, this gun was buffed into one of the best weapons in the game, especially considering that it has a damage multiplier against shields and barriers.

GETH PLASMA SMG:
Original Damage: [13.9-17.4]
Spare Ammo: [500-625]
Weight: [0.75-0.35]
Current Damage: [16.1-20.1] (+16% of original damage)
Spare Ammo: [600-800] (+28% spare ammo)
Weight: [0.65-0.3] (Minimum weight decreased by 5)

HORNET SMG:
Original Damage: [46.1-57.6]
Spare Ammo: [144-180]
Weight: [1.0-0.5]
Current Damage: [53.7-67.2] (+17% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 746.67 (+17%)
Sustained DPS: 632.47 (+17%)
Spare Ammo: [168-216] (+20% spare ammo)
Weight: [0.85-0.45] (Minimum weight decreased by 5)

HURRICANE SMG:
Original Damage: [72.5-90.6]
Spare Ammo: [240-300]
Weight: [1-0.5]
Current Damage: [102.5-128.1] (+41% of original damage)
Burst DPS:  1281 (+41%)
Sustained DPS:  905.3 (+41%)
Recoil significantly reduced.
Spare Ammo: [280-360] (+20% spare ammo)
Weight: [0.85-0.45] (Minimum weight decreased by 5 (Max weight decreased by 15))

The Hurricane has been significantly buffed, gaining more sustained DPS than the Falcon and Krysae lost in their respective nerfs as well as losing a ton of recoil, adding 20% more spare ammo, and losing a dash of weight.

THE GUN THAT KILLED TWO PRESIDENTS (LOCUST):
Original Damage: [26.2-32.8]
Spare Ammo: [240-300]
Weight: [0.75-0.35]
Current Damage: [34.3-42.8] (+30% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 392.33  (+30%)
Sustained DPS:  332.84 (+30%)
Spare Ammo: [260-340] (+13% spare ammo)
Weight: [0.65-0.3] (Minimum weight decreased by 5)

SHURIKEN SMG:
Original Damage: [29.3-36.6]
Spare Ammo: [324-405]
Weight: [0.5-0.2]
Current Damage: [38.7-48.3] (+32% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 375.04 (+32%)
Sustained DPS: 345.94 (+32%)
Spare Ammo: [360-468] (+20% spare ammo)
Weight: [0.45-0.2] (Minimum weight stayed the same, but max weight went down by 5)

TEMPEST SMG:
Original Damage: [35.7-44.6]
Spare Ammo: [350-437]
Weight: [0.75-0.35]
Current Damage: [47.5-59.4] (+33% of original damage)
Burst DPS:  643.5 (+33%)
Sustained DPS: 545.42 (+33%)
Spare Ammo: [400-500] (+14% spare ammo)
Weight: [0.65-0.3] (Minimum weight decreased by 5)

CLAYMORE SHOTGUN
Original Damage: [152.8-191.0]
Current Damage: [167.8-206.0] (+8% of original damage)
Burst DPS:  1648 (+8%)
Sustained DPS:  833.38 (+8%)

N7 CRUSADER SHOTGUN:
Original Damage: [353.7-442.1]
Spare Ammo: [10-20
Weight: [2.5-2.0]
Current Damage: [486.6-608.3] (+38% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 811.07 (+38%)
Sustained DPS: 687.34 (+38%)
Weight: [2.3-2.0] (Minimum weight is the same, but max weight lowered to make it more accessible at low levels)

EVISCERATOR SHOTGUN
Original Damage: [60.0-74.9]
Weight: [1.5-0.9]
Current Damage: [64.6-80.7] (+8% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 516.48 (+8%)
Sustained DPS: 451.47 (+8%)
Weight: [1.25-0.7] (Minimum weight decreased by 20)

PIRANHA ASSAULT SHOTGUN
Original Damage: [63.6-79.6]
Current Damage: [70.9-88.7] (+11% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 1774 (+11%)
Sustained DPS: 1526.02 (+11%)

Why was this buffed again? It was already the best gun for just about everyone.

REEGAR CARBINE:
- Encumbrance increased from [1.75-1.0] to [1.75-1.25] (Minimum weight increased by 25)

SCIMITAR SHOTGUN
- Encumbrance reduced from [1.5-0.9] to [1.25-0.7] (Minimum weight decreased by 20)

WRAITH SHOTGUN
Original Damage: [83.1-103.9]
Spare Ammo: [10-20]
Weight: [1.5-0.9]
Current Damage: [102.3-127.8] (+23% of original damage)
Burst DPS: 817.92 (+23%)
Sustained DPS: 672.63 (+23%)
Spare Ammo: [18-28] (+40% spare ammo)
Weight: [1.2-0.9] (Minimum weight is the same, but max weight lowered to make it more accessible at low levels)

Weapons that have received no direct changes:
Acolyte
Avenger
Disciple
Geth Plasma Shotgun
Graal Spike Thrower
Katana
Kishok (Well, it got effectively nerfed by way of bugfix, but it's seen no weekly balance changes)
Mantis
Phalanx
Predator
Raptor
Striker
Widow (Though it is a beneficiary of the shield gate reduction)
Valiant

Things that have affected the performance of every weapon:
- Very powerful level 4 Ammo Consumables
- Gear Slot (+15% weapon damage and other permanent bonus options)
- Character adjustments such as increased carrying capacity or powers that affect weapon damage.
- Thermal clip packs now include an Adrenaline Rush-like effect which reloads weapons and significantly boosts damage, doubling burst damage firing time and boosting burst damage in a pinch as well as significantly reducing the risk of "reloading deaths."
- Enemy stat adjustments
- New weapon mods
- Reduced shield gate (well, affects many weapons, not all)

Statistics:
The game includes 50 weapons

29 guns have been buffed.
Of these buffs...
- 3 simply decrease weight.
- 5 add between 8 and 15% damage.  Of these 5, 1 sheds a whopping 40 minimum weight and gains 28% spare ammo,  1 lost 20 minimum weight, and the other 3 are just damage boosts.
- 8 add between 16% and 25% damage.  Of these, 6 get more spare ammo (up to 40% more), 6 get reduced weight, and 1 gains weight.
- 6 add between 26% and 35% damage, making them very significant. Of these, 5 lose weight and gain spare ammo, and 1 gains weight.
- 5 add between 36% and 50% damage, making them about as significant as or more significant than the largest nerfs. Of these, 4 lose weight, 2 gain 20% more spare ammo, and 1 gets its recoil significantly slashed.
- 2 add more than 50% damage, making them considerably more significant than the largest nerfs.  One of these has an 88% increase to its sustained DPS... more than double the largest nerf.
- 2 have "mixed blessings" (with the blessings being generally better than the downsides)

14 guns have not been directly changed.

7 guns have been nerfed.
- Of these 7 nerfs, 4 are nothing but minor weight changes (Harrier weight increased 25, Reegar weight increased 25, Vindicator weight increased 20, Carnifex weight increased 15).  The other 3 (Falcon, Krysae, Typhoon) are significant, and apparently represent "constant overbearing nerfing making all of the guns useless nerf guns."  I suppose the other 47 weapons don't count.
- The 3 significant nerfs are outnumbered by buffs of similar or greater magnitude (see above), even before factoring in things like improved consumables or a gear slot.
- Of these 3 significant nerfs, none gain weight, 2 lose 17-18% spare ammo, and none lose more than 38% sustained DPS

Many of the weapons that have received buffs are now meaningful contenders in the metagame, including the Talon, Indra, Hurricane, Claymore, Scorpion, Mattock, and more.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 08 août 2012 - 08:39 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Reserved

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 10 août 2012 - 12:04 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Reserved

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 10 août 2012 - 12:04 .

[Quixal]

Honestly, whether I agree with all the balance changes made so far or not, I think they are good for the longevity of the game. They force players to periodically reevaluate the abilities and weapons, leading to changes in how they play. The game would get stale a lot more quickly without the fluid nature of the game balance.

[InTheZone]

Man, all the whiners for buffs/nerfs really make it seem like BW is terrible. They're not. The whiners are a bunch of ****s.

[N7 Whiskey]

Oh come on now. You know damned good and well that the buffs are minuscule but when they decide to nerf something it gets neutered. Furthermore, BW continually refuses to buff weapons that clearly need drastic changes to make them worth consideration on anything above Bronze. Sure, Red John can take a level 1 Human Adept with a level 1 Eagle into Gold and breeze through it in 18 minutes solo, but that doesn't make the HA or the Eagle any less crap for the average player.

BW needs to stop making adjustments based on the best players with optimal setups and give the average player something to work with.

[Rokayt]

Basically, More large buffs have happened then large nerfs.

BuckshotSamurai wrote...

Oh come on now. You know damned
good and well that the buffs are minuscule but when they decide to nerf
something it gets neutered. Furthermore, BW continually refuses to buff
weapons that clearly need drastic changes to make them worth
consideration on anything above Bronze. Sure, Red John can take a level
1 Human Adept with a level 1 Eagle into Gold and breeze through it in
18 minutes solo, but that doesn't make the HA or the Eagle any less crap
for the average player.

BW needs to stop making adjustments
based on the best players with optimal setups and give the average
player something to work with.

The stats above show that this is not the case. :innocent:

Modifié par Rokayt, 08 août 2012 - 07:50 .

[scheherazade]

How about expressing the buffs/nerfs in terms of DPS, rather than %?

You could go from 1dps to 10dps, and have a 1000% buff... (+9 dps)
You could go from 1000 dps to 900dps, and have a 10% nerf... (-100 dps)

9 dps buff is nothing compared to a -100 dps nerf.

A lot of the buffed guns were buffed from 'trash' to 'trash'.
A lot of the nerfed guns were nerfed from 'awesome' to 'ok'.

-scheherazade

Modifié par scheherazade, 08 août 2012 - 07:56 .

[KnoxZone1]

Do not try to use reason and statistics when dealing with the average hysterical BSN member. It just doesn't work.

[jaydubs67]

BuckshotSamurai wrote...

You know damned good and well that the buffs are minuscule but when they decide to nerf something it gets neutered.

What, did you totally fail to read the post?  Or are we really supposed to take your totally unsupported assertion over a post that includes each specific buff and nerf with accompanying numbers analysis?  

[Rokayt]

scheherazade wrote...

How about expressing the buffs/nerfs in terms of DPS, rather than %?

You could go from 1dps to 10dps, and have a 1000% buff... (+9 dps)
You could go from 1000 dps to 900dps, and have a 10% nerf... (-100 dps)

9 dps buff is nothing compared to a -100 dps nerf.

-scheherazade

A game that had that DPS ratio would be at suicidal levels of imbalance.

However, the highest DPS gun did get an 11% buff.

This should easily show that a large amount of DPS has been generated, not lost.

[thegamefreek78648]

Went and counted up all the individual nerfs and buffs Bioware has done since launch, not counting changes to enemies and wave set ups.

219 buffs
40 nerfs and 2 of those nerfs I personaly dont count as nerfs. They are the rate of fire changes to the falcon.

[IndigoVitare]

BuckshotSamurai wrote...

Oh come on now. You know damned good and well that the buffs are minuscule but when they decide to nerf something it gets neutered. Furthermore, BW continually refuses to buff weapons that clearly need drastic changes to make them worth consideration on anything above Bronze. Sure, Red John can take a level 1 Human Adept with a level 1 Eagle into Gold and breeze through it in 18 minutes solo, but that doesn't make the HA or the Eagle any less crap for the average player.

BW needs to stop making adjustments based on the best players with optimal setups and give the average player something to work with.

You're either being sarcastic or didn't read the post. Assuming latter,

If you HAD read the post you'd see that many of the buffs were't "miniscule" compared to the nerfs. In fact, they were GREATER.

Mathematical proof is RIGHT THERE. Surely you know that 41 is bigger than 38?

[Feneckus]

You forgot the Kishock nerf due to the latest patch.

And anyway, people will only remember nerfs because their precious noob guns/builds are no longer godly (Falcon, Krysae, infiltrators). The fact that people are still butthurt about the TC nerf is telling. Infiltrators are still as good as ever.

[TheKillerAngel]

Some of the buffs have been significant, but many of them are just "token buffs" that haven't meaningfully affected players.

[BjornDaDwarf]

If only data, statistics, history and logic had any bearing on the dozens of threads a week complaining about nerfs.

Nice work though. Just out of curiosity, are you keeping this all in a spreadsheet? If it's a spreadsheet, might be nice to link to a public doc of it, would make some of the changes easier to digest.

[Madeline Lightning]

I don't know why they even need a score at the end. Removing that would solve everything. We aren't in competition but allied against the AI, trying to win as one. Nothing should have ever been nerfed, only bad things buffed up. If people are doing good, that's a good thing. We want to win. Some of us don't play in groups and because you can start a game with one person in gold, it should be treated as a 1 to 4 player balance change, not a constant 4 player balance change Eric Fagnan keeps basing it all on. I have favorite races or classes I like, or actually just characters. Some are just not viable for soloing, but should be. Many years from now this shooter will go down as the most mishandled, mismanaged co-op game of all time.

[ryoldschool]

I note that you avoid comment on the magnitude of the typhoon nerf. In spectre's video its about 1/2 as effective in-game.

[GodlessPaladin]

ryoldschool wrote...
I note that you avoid comment on the magnitude of the typhoon nerf. In spectre's video its about 1/2 as effective in-game.

No I didn't.  It's in there and noted as one of the 3 significant nerfs.

Feneckus wrote...

You forgot the Kishock nerf due to the latest patch.

  No I didn't, I mentioned it. 

Please read my post in its entirety before replying.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 08 août 2012 - 08:03 .

[tfoltz]

Regardless of past buffs, most weapons are mediocre or bad even with gear/consumables.

[Madeline Lightning]

tfoltz wrote...

Regardless of past buffs, most weapons are mediocre or bad even with gear/consumables.

yes. 

[bigkahuna077]

Sad the mattock has been buffed quite well multiple times and is still used rarely, it's still my go to AR however.

[Killahead]

Good job. This forum would have been a lot more civilized, not to mention smarter place, if everyone were to read this.