436 réponses à ce sujet

[Rokayt]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

For example take into enemies and you'll see the real "buffs" they gave these weapons.

That Paladin for example, a UR, is heavier and, with it's buff, does -35% of damage to an original Pyro.

Wait, it's heavier and still does -35% damage to the new Pyro as it would to the original? Wow what a buff.

You modded your game to spawn only Pyros?

I remember them being really easy to kill in half a second due to their head being infront of their fuel tank. Allowing you to pull off a 420% damage shots with an AP Weapon by headshotting them, due to the bullet entering them twice.

Most foes are far weaker to the Paladin then ever.

Brutes, Ravangers, Guardians, Troopers, Cannibles, Banshees, and most of cerberus for that matter should die to its high damage fury faster then ever.

[Atheosis]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

For example take into enemies and you'll see the real "buffs" they gave these weapons.

That Paladin for example, a UR, is heavier and, with it's buff, does -35% of damage to an original Pyro.

Wait, it's heavier and still does -35% damage to the new Pyro as it would to the original? Wow what a buff.

Are you familiar with the term "cherry picking"? 

[realgundam]

If you saved 10 ppl, does it makes it right and ignore it when you kill 1 person? I think not

[Dream-Maker]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

For example take into enemies and you'll see the real "buffs" they gave these weapons.

That Paladin for example, a UR, is heavier and, with it's buff, does -35% of damage to an original Pyro.

Wait, it's heavier and still does -35% damage to the new Pyro as it would to the original? Wow what a buff.

Accuses someone of being selective about buffs/nerfs because enemy buffs are not taken into consideration.

--->  Takes as an example the single most buffed enemy in the game in terms of health/shields while ignoring the other less-buffed enemies and the majority of them that have been left untouched.

.... Yeah.

Modifié par Dream-Maker, 09 août 2012 - 04:12 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

For example take into enemies and you'll see the real "buffs" they gave these weapons.

That Paladin for example, a UR, is heavier and, with it's buff, does -35% of damage to an original Pyro.

Wait, it's heavier and still does -35% damage to the new Pyro as it would to the original? Wow what a buff.

Back in reality where we're actually counting shots to kill and thresholds and such instead of some useless percentage you pulled out of thin air, it still takes 2 headshots to down a pyro's shields and light its gas tank with zero weapon damage bonuses.  Just like it did originally.  With consumable equipment, gear slot, extended barrel or cranial trauma system, and a passive weapon damage bonus, it takes 1 headshot.  And that's the enemy with the most significantly buffed defenses in the game.

Also back in reality, we already covered enemy damage buffs.  And there's a big "reserved" sign for "Powers" and "Old Metagame vs New Metagame"

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 09 août 2012 - 04:12 .

[Clayless]

I'm sure the OP isn't.

You can't make a thread talking about weapon nerfs and buffs unless you talk about the enemies they're used against. That's how you'll really see how good these weapons are.

[GodlessPaladin]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

I'm sure the OP isn't.

You can't make a thread talking about weapon nerfs and buffs unless you talk about the enemies they're used against.

Clearly you haven't actually read this thread.  Or the post immediately above yours.

Please actually read the thread before replying.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 09 août 2012 - 04:13 .

[Grunt_Platform]

GodlessPaladin wrote...
Also back in reality, we already covered enemy damage buffs.  And there's a big "reserved" sign for "Powers" and "Old Metagame vs New Metagame"

GASP! It's almost as if writing a thorough analysis of these topics takes time or something!

But I guess reactionary proclamations wait for no man. And uh, don't read the thread either.

Modifié par EvanKester, 09 août 2012 - 04:14 .

[Clayless]

Though now I see the reserved sign, didn't scroll down to read comments.

Hopefully you'll compare them in those sections, pointing out the real effectiveness of the new weapons, but I doubt it given your situational response to me.

[samb]

GP, what is your point here? Are you trying to show that balance is being achieved? By "proving" more buffs are present than nerfs? It's not working. You are committing selection bias.

You use percentages rather than raw DPS because that would confirm your hypothesis. Did you know the Pyro got nearly 60% increase in shields, 30% boost in damage, and about a 25% increase in range? How about the hunter? It now shots faster, moves faster and has 50% more shields.

We have several guns to pick from but only 3 enemies to pick from. If anything, changes to them have a much higher effect on gameplay. Oh and let's not forget the 3 fractions never got any nerfs other than a small decrease in dodging.

You make a blacket statement about the enemy fractions "it wasn't that much" while you pour detail into weapons. Because you knew it would sustainiate your opinion. So much for "objective eh?

[Atheosis]

realgundam wrote...

If you saved 10 ppl, does it makes it right and ignore it when you kill 1 person? I think not

Modifié par Atheosis, 09 août 2012 - 04:20 .

[samb]

EvanKester wrote...
GASP! It's almost as if writing a thorough analysis of these topics takes time or something!

But I guess reactionary proclamations wait for no man. And uh, don't read the thread either.

Oh dear we took it out of context because there was no context provided in the first place!!!  Oh shame on me. Hey if you don't want people to get the wrong idea, maybe you should publish something when it is ready!!  What a brilliant idea!

[Clayless]

samb wrote...

GP, what is your point here? Are you trying to show that balance is being achieved? By "proving" more buffs are present than nerfs? It's not working. You are committing selection bias.

You use percentages rather than raw DPS because that would confirm your hypothesis. Did you know the Pyro got nearly 60% increase in shields, 30% boost in damage, and about a 25% increase in range? How about the hunter? It now shots faster, moves faster and has 50% more shields.

We have several guns to pick from but only 3 enemies to pick from. If anything, changes to them have a much higher effect on gameplay. Oh and let's not forget the 3 fractions never got any nerfs other than a small decrease in dodging.

You make a blacket statement about the enemy fractions "it wasn't that much" while you pour detail into weapons. Because you knew it would sustainiate your opinion. So much for "objective eh?

Doesn't work, apparently pointing this out is called being selective.

I even picked a Paladin in my situation and was accused of cherry picking. A freaking Paladin, but apparently if you hit a Pyro in a certain way, while standing farther back because of the buff obviosuly, with certain mods and equipment on you can one shot kill him. And I got accused of cherry picking.

Learned my lesson, if you're going to point something out to the OP make sure you use the most buffed weapon in the game, the Eagle, in your hypotheticals, because apparently a Paladin isn't good enough(?).

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 09 août 2012 - 04:26 .

[Rokayt]

samb wrote...

EvanKester wrote...
GASP! It's almost as if writing a thorough analysis of these topics takes time or something!

But I guess reactionary proclamations wait for no man. And uh, don't read the thread either.

Oh dear we took it out of context because there was no context provided in the first place!!!  Oh shame on me. Hey if you don't want people to get the wrong idea, maybe you should publish something when it is ready!!  What a brilliant idea!

A lot of these posts take a really long time.

It takes a lot longer then "Title says it all" on a thread "Do you think bioware is ruining the game for our money."

[soldo9149]

Nice work

[GodlessPaladin]

Enemies that have received small buffs to defenses:  9
Atlas:  +25% shields, +36.3% armor
Geth Pyro: +30% damage, +56% shields, reduced chance to evade
Geth Hunter:  +20% health, +50% shields
Geth Prime:  Reduced likelihood of being staggered.
Geth Trooper:  +10% health.
Centurion:  +10.2% health, shield recharge delay very slightly decreased (6.5 seconds to 6 seconds)
Guardian:  +20% health
Nemesis:  +16.6% health, +15% shields
Turret:  +16.6% health, +16.6% shields

The proportion of these buffs have been listed and analyzed in previous posts.  The short answer is that they are generally outweighed by the increase in overall character effectiveness (something I planned to cover in "old metagame vs new metagame."

Enemies that have received no buffs:  13
Assault Trooper
Combat Engineer
Phantom
Geth Rocket Trooper
Banshee
Brute
Cannibal
Marauder
Ravager
Husk
Swarmer
Geth Turret
Geth Drone

Statistics:  Average enemy increase to total health or armor / shields or barriers total across all enemy types:  7%
More important though, many of these changes don't even change the "time to kill" thresholds for many enemies from many attack types.

samb wrote...

GP, what is your point here? Are you trying
to show that balance is being achieved? By "proving" more buffs are
present than nerfs?

No, that is obviously not what is being shown.  If you bothered to read my post, you would see what I said was being shown.  I was rather explicit.  What is being shown is that the claims that weapon nerfs outweigh weapon buffs is completely false.  This has nothing to do with whether the end result is actually balanced or not.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 09 août 2012 - 04:50 .

[Grunt_Platform]

samb wrote...

EvanKester wrote...
GASP! It's almost as if writing a thorough analysis of these topics takes time or something!

But I guess reactionary proclamations wait for no man. And uh, don't read the thread either.

Oh dear we took it out of context because there was no context provided in the first place!!!  Oh shame on me. Hey if you don't want people to get the wrong idea, maybe you should publish something when it is ready!!  What a brilliant idea!

He provides enough context to show that the guns have, relative to other guns, only been getting stronger on average. And within the thread he and several others have addressed the "enemy buffs" point several times. It's not like he's deliberately witholding data, the weapons portion of the thread (IE: the main thrust, as noted in the title) is already pretty thorough and worth discussion on its own.

And honestly? The pre-buff geth only existed for one week. Can we please stop talking about the geth buff as if it's some major news? Most of the changes in the game have happened since. No doubt putting the Geth on the same level as the Reapers was a factor in a number of the buffs guns have received since.

You do have a point that if they have been buffing the enemies too much, that would be more significant than all the gun buffs in the world. But they haven't been doing that. They buffed the geth faction once, until their data showed them to be comparable to Reapers in difficulty. Then they buffed Cerberus a little. Reapers haven't changed much at all since launch, and seem to be the gold standard of factions. So you can check relative weapon balance pretty well using them.

Modifié par EvanKester, 09 août 2012 - 04:49 .

[Impulse and Compulse]

I definitely agree, Bioware has done such a fantastic job with most of the buffs. But the nerfs really stand out, because they're just so agonizing. They never really do what they really should be designed to do, and that's bring it down to the same level as other weapons. Instead, most nerfs just seem to absolutely destroy what was otherwise a better-than-average weapon. C'mon now, the Krysae at least deserves a damage buff like the Falcon.

And the gun that killed two presidents....wow, I didn't realize how big of a buff it's gotten. But having the single lowest damage per shot in the game, combined with a painful ROF, really just cripples the gun still, even with such a large boost in damage.

[Major Durza]

Good job, GP. Impressive post.

[Clayless]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

What is being shown is that the claims that nerfs outweigh buffs is false.  This has nothing to do with whether the end result is actually balanced or not.

You mean outnumber, not outweigh, as it's entirely subjective whether or not someone thinks an extra Prime on objective waves with less chance to be staggered outweighs (insert weapon here's) buffs and nerfs.

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 09 août 2012 - 04:42 .

[Rokayt]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

What is being shown is that the claims that nerfs outweigh buffs is false.  This has nothing to do with whether the end result is actually balanced or not.

You mean outnumber, not outweigh, as it's entirely subjective whether or not someone thinks an extra Prime on objective waves with less chance to be staggered, outweighs (insert weapon here's) buffs and nerfs.

I dunno, Having a working Tempest for when I run out of working Revenant rounds REALLY helps out with those hunters.

You know, two working guns, that didn't work before.

Modifié par Rokayt, 09 août 2012 - 04:44 .

[Clayless]

Rokayt wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

What is being shown is that the claims that nerfs outweigh buffs is false.  This has nothing to do with whether the end result is actually balanced or not.

You mean outnumber, not outweigh, as it's entirely subjective whether or not someone thinks an extra Prime on objective waves with less chance to be staggered, outweighs (insert weapon here's) buffs and nerfs.

I dunno, Having a working Tempest for when I run out of working Revenant rounds REALLY helps out with those hunters.

You know, two working guns, that didn't work before.

Exactly, subjective.

It's great that one of the most effective weapons in the game got a damage buff, but now there's 3 Primes on certain waves? And Pyros have more health and more range and are more powerful? And Hunters have more health and move faster? Hmm, that outweighs that buff.

What about the most buffed weapon in the game? The Eagle? Hmm, it feels like it outweighs it's buffs too.

Man, the most effective weapons in the game were hit by this and the most buffed weapons? What great buffs.

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 09 août 2012 - 04:56 .

[GodlessPaladin]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

What do you think of the fact that something has been overnerfed, but not overbuffed?

I think that both overnerfing and overbuffing are bad.