436 réponses à ce sujet

[Tankcommander]

Ah, I see now. I think the reason these claims have come up, however, was due to the fact that the nerfs were so very noticeable (being widely used guns, nerfs hitting critical factors), as opposed to the buffs, which were only noticeable on a few weapons. You can definitely tell the Typhoon took a damage hit, and those of us who rocked the Kishock back in the day don't anymore. Why? Well before, the boss headshot critical made up for the huge lag issue non-host, but with that 'feature' gone, there isn't enough compensation.

I, for one, would still like to see the nerfs vanish almost entirely and instead see buffs for such poor weapons as the Locust, but I've been hoping for that ever since starting ME3MP, so we'll see...

[Ashen One]

This has to be one of the top 10 BSN threads posted so far this week, and for all the wrong reasons.

You probably knew the nature of the responses you would get posting this on the multiplayer forum, which makes it even funnier.

[Cthulu_Cuddler]

 Brilliant post that is now forever bookmarked for reference. I've been trying to say these things about the other guns (in fewer words) for some time now to a few others who play the game-couldn't have said it better myself if I tried.

THX GodlessPaladin<3

Modifié par Cthulu_Cuddler, 09 août 2012 - 11:39 .

[Cheesylover]

In the meantime they've buffed all the enemies.

[Arctican]

Cheesylover wrote...

In the meantime they've buffed all the enemies.

Reapers aren't buffed. The buffs to rest of the enemies are mitigated by the buffs to the players like equipment and gears which some people are intent on ignoring. 

[gravitygroove]

 Buff the enemies, nerf the weapons, (or nerf one and buff one doing nothing) week after week, and how does that make for more fun or a better gameplay experience for anyone but the top 1% tier of hardcore me3 players who can solo platinum blindfolded with only a predator x?


*sigh*  

The data is compelling, but i agree with someone on the first page who mentions how the "buffs" are distributed on weapons that are already very lackluster with more regularity, as he put it, "buffing trash guns to trash guns, and awesome guns into ok guns."

Modifié par gravitygroove, 10 août 2012 - 12:39 .

[Poison_Berrie]

Tankcommander wrote...

You can definitely tell the Typhoon took a damage hit, and those of us who rocked the Kishock back in the day don't anymore. Why? Well before, the boss headshot critical made up for the huge lag issue non-host, but with that 'feature' gone, there isn't enough compensation.

As a non-host lag can be a real issue for the Kishock indeed. 
But the Kishock ignores shieldgate and DR, is light, reloads fast (it's a singleshot sniper that can get two shots of in cloak without reload canceling), has no unscoped penalty and does charged more damage than the widow or otherwise about the same damage as a mantis.

How are these bonuses underwhelming?

Cheesylover wrote...

In the meantime they've buffed all the enemies.

Not all, some. They did two waves of buffs. Geth early on and Cerberus more recently and some minor changes (ATLAS, Centurion and Geth Gold Wave composition). 
But tell me, why do they buff these enemies? Are people really thinking it's some nerfarious scheme to nullify the buffs?
Because here's why they really buff enemies: They are the ones lagging behind, not the players, not the weapons, but the enemies. A buff to an enemy is to compensate for how easy that enemy/faction is, how in essence your weapons/classes/powers are already preforming better against them than to other enemies/factions.
To count such a buff as a direct nerf to weapons is missing the point of why such a change was made in the first place.

The Geth have the smallest unit diversity, with only one boss type and no synch kills. Before their first buff they were a cakewalk.

But people only really talk about the buggy behavior of the Geth and suddenly it's not bugs, it's stealth buffs and they must be doing them everywhere!

Constant buffs to enemies are as much a myth as they are nerfing everything all the time.

[Cheesystick]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Not all, some. They did two waves of buffs. Geth early on and Cerberus more recently and some minor changes (ATLAS, Centurion and Geth Gold Wave composition). 
But tell me, why do they buff these enemies? Are people really thinking it's some nerfarious scheme to nullify the buffs?
Because here's why they really buff enemies: They are the ones lagging behind, not the players, not the weapons, but the enemies. A buff to an enemy is to compensate for how easy that enemy/faction is, how in essence your weapons/classes/powers are already preforming better against them than to other enemies/factions.
To count such a buff as a direct nerf to weapons is missing the point of why such a change was made in the first place.

The Geth have the smallest unit diversity, with only one boss type and no synch kills. Before their first buff they were a cakewalk.

But people only really talk about the buggy behavior of the Geth and suddenly it's not bugs, it's stealth buffs and they must be doing them everywhere!

Constant buffs to enemies are as much a myth as they are nerfing everything all the time.

The funny thing is that most of the buffs are health/shield buffs which make games last like what? 2 mins longer. 8k more shields/hp is just ~8.3secs more time to kill with one person constantly shooting a mattock.


The only buff that made geth harder was the movement/pyro range buff, but even then the only way bioware could make it hard is if they made enemies shoot faster, thereby making shield gate less useful and somewhat makes fitness more useful.

Modifié par Cheesystick, 10 août 2012 - 07:30 .

[Grunt_Platform]

gravitygroove wrote...
The data is compelling, but i agree with someone on the first page who mentions how the "buffs" are distributed on weapons that are already very lackluster with more regularity, as he put it, "buffing trash guns to trash guns, and awesome guns into ok guns."

Not part of the imaginary elite 1% here.

Anyway, how do you think lacklustre guns become useful? Do you want them to buff the guns that are already really good? How would that help anything?

No, you buff guns, powers and classes that are underpowered. That's how you get things like the Talon going from trash to top tier. That's how the Paladin actually got distinguished from the Carnifex.

Some guns do, admittedly, have much further to go—The Eagle for example—but many of the guns that received buffs are now functional substitutes for more powerful weapons (Phaeston can tide you over until you unlock better full-autos), or even powerful in their own right.

Modifié par EvanKester, 10 août 2012 - 07:55 .

[Constant Motion]

Thank god for Godless Paladin!

There's no such thing as nerfers. There are people who understand the complex fragility of a balanced metagame which forces you to make tactical choices and how much fun, strategy and replayability that can add, and there are people who want to make everything die quicker because the quicker something dies the more you're enjoying yourself.

Thank god Bioware belong to the former. Love the weekly balance changes. Don't necessarily enjoy every choice, don't necessarily approve of every choice, but I love how my favourite game's constantly being honed and refined. Thanks for doing all this, Paladin. 17 pages says people might listen!

[joker_jack]

Arctican wrote...

Cheesylover wrote...

In the meantime they've buffed all the enemies.

Reapers aren't buffed. The buffs to rest of the enemies are mitigated by the buffs to the players like equipment and gears which some people are intent on ignoring. 

And bioware didn't lower the stager threshold. At least they bothered to take down the bork from the list.

 

[DHKany]

A thread of clarity amongst all of these whine threads. Thanks for the post GP, but unfotunately the idiots and trolls of BSN have already gathered here.
Why can't people see that the ONLY three MAJOR weapon nerfs were the Krysae, Falcon and the Typhoon. The only unjustified nerf I find is the Typhoon nerf but the others I understand. And even after those major nerfs they aren't ZOMG USELESS they still have their purpose.

[DESTRAUDO]

The op post is pretty amazing. Thanks for doing all the work for it.

[Constant Motion]

DHKany wrote...

A thread of clarity amongst all of these whine threads. Thanks for the post GP, but unfotunately the idiots and trolls of BSN have already gathered here.
Why can't people see that the ONLY three MAJOR weapon nerfs were the Krysae, Falcon and the Typhoon. The only unjustified nerf I find is the Typhoon nerf but the others I understand. And even after those major nerfs they aren't ZOMG USELESS they still have their purpose.

Yep. Krysae wasn't made unusable, it just got pushed into its own niche. Now there's not one Sniper to rule them all - you can use the Krysae for crowd control, or the Black Widow (or something) for damage. Much better.

[CharlieCC]

A lot of the buffs that OP has listed simply tried to make those weapons a little more usable at higher difficulties but the nerfs, specifically the Falcon/Krysae, made the weapons almost trash.

Also, I'd bet not as many people were effected by the buffs, because they don't use those weapons, compared to the number of people using the Falcon/Krysae pre-nerf.

If you want to compare what the balancing has done to this game, please compare the impact of change the balancing has had on the community and not just the % change for each individual weapon.

[Constant Motion]

CharlieCC wrote...

Also, I'd bet not as many people were effected by the buffs, because they don't use those weapons, compared to the number of people using the Falcon/Krysae pre-nerf.

That is kind of exactly the point.

[CharlieCC]

Constant Motion wrote...

CharlieCC wrote...

Also, I'd bet not as many people were effected by the buffs, because they don't use those weapons, compared to the number of people using the Falcon/Krysae pre-nerf.

That is kind of exactly the point.

I was trying to make a point that the way BW is nerfing our weapons is hurting the community more than the buffs.

So 2 weapons get moved to the "never use again" pile and some weapons goes to the "random weapon that I'll use once in a while" pile.....

[Poison_Berrie]

CharlieCC wrote...

I was trying to make a point that the way BW is nerfing our weapons is hurting the community more than the buffs.

So 2 weapons get moved to the "never use again" pile and some weapons goes to the "random weapon that I'll use once in a while" pile.....

Which weapons?
The Typhoon seems to be bugged, in theory it should still be quite a beast. I mean it should be fixed, of course and if it's the cause of these problems it does hurt the comminuty but that's just one.
The Krysae and Falcon have been moved to a niche. One that people apparently have trouble understanding. 
These weapons deal full damage to multiple enemies in their AoE. What would be the point of single target weapons if these AoE weapons could kill a single target in a similar time while killing those around it as well.

Several guns I've been using more because of buffs Vindicator, Mattock (a lot), Indra (a lot), Phaeston, Hornet, Saber, Viper.

Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 10 août 2012 - 10:00 .

[Cheesystick]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

CharlieCC wrote...

I was trying to make a point that the way BW is nerfing our weapons is hurting the community more than the buffs.

So 2 weapons get moved to the "never use again" pile and some weapons goes to the "random weapon that I'll use once in a while" pile.....

Which weapons?
The Typhoon seems to be bugged, in theory it should still be quite a beast.
The Krysae and Falconhave been moved to a niche. One that people apparently have trouble understanding.
These weapons deal full damage to multiple enemies in their AoE. What would be the point of single target weapons if these AoE weapons could kill a single target in a similar time while killing those around it as well.

Several guns I've been using more because of buffs Vindicator, Mattock (a lot), Indra (a lot), Phaeston, Hornet, Saber, Viper.

I remember people used to be kicked on gold for having most of those weapons too. Back then you had to have at least a gps,carnifex,paladin, bw, or falcon to not be kicked; granted most people were noobs back then and considered claymore horrible and vangaurd op because they were easy to solo bronze.

Most of bioware's balance changes never really affected the community's use of weapons/classes, only a little to those that read these forums, because most are casuals that do bad with any weapon and believe that any weapon/class is good or bad depending on the "skills" of the player or their experiences with it. Heck, If you search the forums enough you'll find that most of the builds people advise to others are horrible: turretless quarian, chargeless vangaurd, throwless fury, tech armor/warpless TS, HMless GE, droneless HE, Proxyless GI/SI and more. They'll usually back it up with a screenshot of their 140k score game, in a 45 min gold game mostly on FBW....

Modifié par Cheesystick, 10 août 2012 - 10:28 .

[nicethugbert]

Arctican wrote...

Cheesylover wrote...

In the meantime they've buffed all the enemies.

Reapers aren't buffed. The buffs to rest of the enemies are mitigated by the buffs to the players like equipment and gears which some people are intent on ignoring. 

Equipment is part of the store racket.

[Imp of the Perverse]

nicethugbert wrote...

Arctican wrote...

Cheesylover wrote...

In the meantime they've buffed all the enemies.

Reapers aren't buffed. The buffs to rest of the enemies are mitigated by the buffs to the players like equipment and gears which some people are intent on ignoring. 

Equipment is part of the store racket.

And weapons aren't? Gear is just as much a part of the game. I ignored it at first thinking if I used it, I'd run out, and then feel handicapped. Now though I equip level 3 or 4 gear in just about all slots every gold match, and I never run out. I do have to vary which characters and weapons I use to make sure I'm making use of all of it, but I see that as a good thing since it keeps me from stagnating.

[N7-RedFox]

Even with all those buffs, most of the weapons which received them are still too innefficient to use on Gold or Platinum. So in other words, they're pointless.

The nerfs however, be they fewer, still managed to completely destroy some weapons.

[DHKany]

Constant Motion wrote...

DHKany wrote...

A thread of clarity amongst all of these whine threads. Thanks for the post GP, but unfotunately the idiots and trolls of BSN have already gathered here.
Why can't people see that the ONLY three MAJOR weapon nerfs were the Krysae, Falcon and the Typhoon. The only unjustified nerf I find is the Typhoon nerf but the others I understand. And even after those major nerfs they aren't ZOMG USELESS they still have their purpose.

Yep. Krysae wasn't made unusable, it just got pushed into its own niche. Now there's not one Sniper to rule them all - you can use the Krysae for crowd control, or the Black Widow (or something) for damage. Much better.

Yep. The only thing that the krysae needs tho is the annoying refire time delay reduced with an empty mag cause the reloading taked forever.

[Arctican]

CaptainTeabag wrote...

Even with all those buffs, most of the weapons which received them are still too innefficient to use on Gold or Platinum. So in other words, they're pointless.

The nerfs however, be they fewer, still managed to completely destroy some weapons.

I don't know about platinum, but a lot of the guns that got buffed can be used efficiently on gold, like the Revenant, Mattock, Indra, Scorpiron, PPR, and the Talon comes to mind. The Revenant and the Indra received buffs that made them effective against armor while some of the pistols received a weight reduction so they can be used on casters without a CD penalty. Those aren't pointless.

[rmccowen]

CaptainTeabag wrote...

Even with all those buffs, most of the weapons which received them are still too innefficient to use on Gold or Platinum. So in other words, they're pointless.

Right. The Hurricane, Talon, Paladin, Indra, Revenant, and Mattock are all still so weak you can't use them above Silver.

The nerfs however, be they fewer, still managed to completely destroy some weapons.

This isn't calculus, it's counting and subtraction. There are 8 weapons that have received nerfs of any kind. 4 were restricted to weight changes (and fairly minor ones at that). 1 was the Piranha's recent nerf, which leaves it at -3% from its original stats. 1 was the Typhoon nerf, which in theory left it at over 1000 DPS at level 1--but its performance has been inconsistent. That leaves 8 - 4 - 1 - 1 = 2. Only two weapons that can be fairly categorized as "destroyed".

And what are those two weapons? Why, they're weapons with an immediate burst effect. One had a massive rate of fire, allowing players to abuse it by stunlocking enemies; they actually increased its damage but slapped its effective rate of fire down, and as a result it's now a good niche weapon rather than a superb stagger-everything gun.

Oh, and that happened on March 20.

The other is the Krysae, which was good on most characters and broken in the hands of an Infiltrator. It could be similarly abused to stagger and destroy entire groups of enemies in seconds. They did grind it down in almost every area that counts. It's still perfectly usable on the SI and GI, but I won't argue that it's still a good general weapon.

So "managed to completely destroy some weapons" means "destroyed the Krysae, and made the Falcon harder to use". You're one of the people that likes to portray nerfs as constant and demoralizing, so I'm wondering: is losing two weapons in six months (and one weapon in the last five months) really so hard to bear?