436 réponses à ce sujet

[LeandroBraz]

CharlieCC wrote...

A lot of the buffs that OP has listed simply tried to make those weapons a little more usable at higher difficulties but the nerfs, specifically the Falcon/Krysae, made the weapons almost trash.

Also, I'd bet not as many people were effected by the buffs, because they don't use those weapons, compared to the number of people using the Falcon/Krysae pre-nerf.

If you want to compare what the balancing has done to this game, please compare the impact of change the balancing has had on the community and not just the % change for each individual weapon.

Everyone is affected by the buffs and the nerfs, since everyone can have and use every weapon, if you will actually use it is up to you. The point is to make every weapon a viable option.

 Off course mostly of the buffs are in weapons that few uses, after all, almost nobody is willing to use a weak weapon, but the buff make them viable to use, so you gonna see more and more people using it. One example is the Hurricane. Who cared about the hurricane when the game was released? Now it's one of the most used weapons in the game.


Other example, I'm using the mattock right now, which was a joke before the buffs.. 

Modifié par LeandroBraz, 10 août 2012 - 12:57 .

[LeandroBraz]

It's funny how people defend that the buffs was pointless, and the nerfs destroyed the weapons, don't matter how much evidence you show that they are wrong. They need the argument to defend their desire for OP weapons, so they just ignore the facts.

I like to use different weapons, so I never stick with the most effective, which means I was using most of this buffed weapons when it happened. I definitely felt the difference. Today I have one idea completely different of which weapon is good than I had when the game was released. There's a lot of weapons that was too weak, but now is very usable, like the mattock that I'm using this week.

- The falcon I used only after the nerf, she is amazing as it is, I can't imagine how OP she was before.
- I tested the Crysae, I agree that the reload issue is a problem, but beside this, she still doing what she suppose to do: Reliable at long range, can save you at close range, and is useful for crowd control.
- The Typhoon still do a lot of damage, as good as most of the ARs (that are a lot better now, thanks to the constant AR buffs).

[Richter Harken]

LeandroBraz wrote...

It's funny how people defend that the buffs was pointless, and the nerfs destroyed the weapons, don't matter how much evidence you show that they are wrong. They need the argument to defend their desire for OP weapons, so they just ignore the facts.

The problem is that a lot of these people, jumping to the broken weapon flavor of the month each time,  have grown so used to massively overpowered guns that they honestly believe that any weapon that's not up to that standard is trash.

You cannot convince them that the buffed weapons are good, because for them 'good' means pre-nerf Krysae on an infiltrator, and obviously no gun is ever going to be buffed to that level, without someone making a huge mistake along the way.

So of course the buffs are not relevant to them.

[Javo2357]

Richter Harken wrote...

LeandroBraz wrote...

It's funny how people defend that the buffs was pointless, and the nerfs destroyed the weapons, don't matter how much evidence you show that they are wrong. They need the argument to defend their desire for OP weapons, so they just ignore the facts.

The problem is that a lot of these people, jumping to the broken weapon flavor of the month each time,  have grown so used to massively overpowered guns that they honestly believe that any weapon that's not up to that standard is trash.

You cannot convince them that the buffed weapons are good, because for them 'good' means pre-nerf Krysae on an infiltrator, and obviously no gun is ever going to be buffed to that level, without someone making a huge mistake along the way.

So of course the buffs are not relevant to them.

Exactly. It seems this pattern is going to repeat itself after each MP DLC that comes out until BW finds a way to balance weapons a bit better before giving them out to players.

[CharlieCC]

LeandroBraz wrote...

CharlieCC wrote...

A lot of the buffs that OP has listed simply tried to make those weapons a little more usable at higher difficulties but the nerfs, specifically the Falcon/Krysae, made the weapons almost trash.

Also, I'd bet not as many people were effected by the buffs, because they don't use those weapons, compared to the number of people using the Falcon/Krysae pre-nerf.

If you want to compare what the balancing has done to this game, please compare the impact of change the balancing has had on the community and not just the % change for each individual weapon.

Everyone is affected by the buffs and the nerfs, since everyone can have and use every weapon, if you will actually use it is up to you. The point is to make every weapon a viable option.

 Off course mostly of the buffs are in weapons that few uses, after all, almost nobody is willing to use a weak weapon, but the buff make them viable to use, so you gonna see more and more people using it. One example is the Hurricane. Who cared about the hurricane when the game was released? Now it's one of the most used weapons in the game.


Other example, I'm using the mattock right now, which was a joke before the buffs.. 

COLLECTOR ASSAULT RIFLE:
(dunno the weapon, few have it)

FALCON ASSAULT RIFLE:
(most consider nerfed to hell by balance)

GETH PULSE RIFLE:
(still a pea shooter for tickling brutes and banshees)

HARRIER ASSAULT RIFLE:
(pretty much still same as when released, decent weapon)

MATTOCK ASSAULT RIFLE:
(
you would not use this if you have the Harrier)

PHAESTON ASSAULT RIFLE:
(buffed weapon, but it's still a low dmg high rof rifle almost like geth pulse rifle)

PROTHEAN PARTICLE BEAM:
(low dmg, high rof, decent only on bronze/silver, hard to keep using on gold/bronze)

REVENANT ASSAULT RIFLE: 
(usable only with stability mods, good on a few classes, great for a few on gold/plat)

SABER ASSAULT RIFLE:
(buffs made this weapon a little bit more viable)

N7 TYPHOON ASSAULT RIFLE:
(the decreased from [2.0x] to [1.5x] seems to me like a 25% nerf when the rof ramped up)

VINDICATOR ASSAULT RIFLE:
(not much changed, barely better than avenger)

BLACK WIDOW SNIPER RIFLE
(not much changed)

INCISOR SNIPER RIFLE
(barely noticable, the high recoil is still not addressed)

INDRA SNIPER RIFLE
(the buffs made this gun fun on bronze/silver, but still not good for gold/plat)

JAVELIN SNIPER RIFLE
(one shot sniper rifle still bad for gold/plat)

KRYSAE SNIPER RIFLE:
(most call this the "nerfed to oblivion" weapon)

VIPER SNIPER RIFLE
(a little better, but barely noticable with the buffs on AI)

ARC PISTOL:
(still a pea shooter pistol)

CARNIFEX HEAVY PISTOL:
(not very noticable)

EAGLE HEAVY PISTOL:
(one of the biggest buffed weapons by balancing change, however still one of the weapons the community complains about)

PALADIN HEAVY PISTOL:
(the damage buffs barely justify the decrease in clip size from 4 to 3)

SCORPION HEAVY PISTOL
(not much difference)

TALON HEAVY PISTOL
(fun little pistol that acts like a shotgun)

GETH PLASMA SMG:
(still a water gun and not an actual gun)

HORNET SMG:
(balance made this a little better)

HURRICANE SMG:
(most consider it one of the best SMG but most still do not take any SMG to gold/plat because they are low dmg high rof weapons that don't do well against armored AI)

LOCUST:
(no body would use this if they had the hurricane)

SHURIKEN SMG:
(no body uses)

TEMPEST SMG:
(no body uses)

CLAYMORE SHOTGUN
(barely noticable change, very little dmg increase)

N7 CRUSADER SHOTGUN:
(one pellet shotgun is not viable on gold/plat)

EVISCERATOR SHOTGUN
(a weaker wraith)

PIRANHA ASSAULT SHOTGUN
(slight dmg nerf from released dmg, still a great shotgun but really low on accuracy)

REEGAR CARBINE:
(not noticable change)

SCIMITAR SHOTGUN
(not noticable change)

WRAITH SHOTGUN
(the problem is still not addressed, the rate of fire)


What the balance has done:
No one cares: 20A little better: 10A lot better: 1 (the eagle which people still complain of being weak)A little worse: 2A lot worse: 3

Changed weapons viable for gold/plat before balance:
Viable:10Not viable:26
Changed weapons viable gold/plat after balance:
Viable:8Not viable:28

Conclusion, sure there were more buffs than nerfs, and sure some of the nerfs were needed, but the buffs were barely noticable while the nerfs took away out good weapons.

In my opinion, BW could have handled the size of the nerf a little differently.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

CharlieCC wrote...

LeandroBraz wrote...

CharlieCC wrote...

A lot of the buffs that OP has listed simply tried to make those weapons a little more usable at higher difficulties but the nerfs, specifically the Falcon/Krysae, made the weapons almost trash.

Also, I'd bet not as many people were effected by the buffs, because they don't use those weapons, compared to the number of people using the Falcon/Krysae pre-nerf.

If you want to compare what the balancing has done to this game, please compare the impact of change the balancing has had on the community and not just the % change for each individual weapon.

Everyone is affected by the buffs and the nerfs, since everyone can have and use every weapon, if you will actually use it is up to you. The point is to make every weapon a viable option.

 Off course mostly of the buffs are in weapons that few uses, after all, almost nobody is willing to use a weak weapon, but the buff make them viable to use, so you gonna see more and more people using it. One example is the Hurricane. Who cared about the hurricane when the game was released? Now it's one of the most used weapons in the game.


Other example, I'm using the mattock right now, which was a joke before the buffs.. 

COLLECTOR ASSAULT RIFLE:
(dunno the weapon, few have it)

FALCON ASSAULT RIFLE:
(most consider nerfed to hell by balance)

GETH PULSE RIFLE:
(still a pea shooter for tickling brutes and banshees)

HARRIER ASSAULT RIFLE:
(pretty much still same as when released, decent weapon)

MATTOCK ASSAULT RIFLE:
(
you would not use this if you have the Harrier)

PHAESTON ASSAULT RIFLE:
(buffed weapon, but it's still a low dmg high rof rifle almost like geth pulse rifle)

PROTHEAN PARTICLE BEAM:
(low dmg, high rof, decent only on bronze/silver, hard to keep using on gold/bronze)

REVENANT ASSAULT RIFLE: 
(usable only with stability mods, good on a few classes, great for a few on gold/plat)

SABER ASSAULT RIFLE:
(buffs made this weapon a little bit more viable)

N7 TYPHOON ASSAULT RIFLE:
(the decreased from [2.0x] to [1.5x] seems to me like a 25% nerf when the rof ramped up)

VINDICATOR ASSAULT RIFLE:
(not much changed, barely better than avenger)

BLACK WIDOW SNIPER RIFLE
(not much changed)

INCISOR SNIPER RIFLE
(barely noticable, the high recoil is still not addressed)

INDRA SNIPER RIFLE
(the buffs made this gun fun on bronze/silver, but still not good for gold/plat)

JAVELIN SNIPER RIFLE
(one shot sniper rifle still bad for gold/plat)

KRYSAE SNIPER RIFLE:
(most call this the "nerfed to oblivion" weapon)

VIPER SNIPER RIFLE
(a little better, but barely noticable with the buffs on AI)

ARC PISTOL:
(still a pea shooter pistol)

CARNIFEX HEAVY PISTOL:
(not very noticable)

EAGLE HEAVY PISTOL:
(one of the biggest buffed weapons by balancing change, however still one of the weapons the community complains about)

PALADIN HEAVY PISTOL:
(the damage buffs barely justify the decrease in clip size from 4 to 3)

SCORPION HEAVY PISTOL
(not much difference)

TALON HEAVY PISTOL
(fun little pistol that acts like a shotgun)

GETH PLASMA SMG:
(still a water gun and not an actual gun)

HORNET SMG:
(balance made this a little better)

HURRICANE SMG:
(most consider it one of the best SMG but most still do not take any SMG to gold/plat because they are low dmg high rof weapons that don't do well against armored AI)

LOCUST:
(no body would use this if they had the hurricane)

SHURIKEN SMG:
(no body uses)

TEMPEST SMG:
(no body uses)

CLAYMORE SHOTGUN
(barely noticable change, very little dmg increase)

N7 CRUSADER SHOTGUN:
(one pellet shotgun is not viable on gold/plat)

EVISCERATOR SHOTGUN
(a weaker wraith)

PIRANHA ASSAULT SHOTGUN
(slight dmg nerf from released dmg, still a great shotgun but really low on accuracy)

REEGAR CARBINE:
(not noticable change)

SCIMITAR SHOTGUN
(not noticable change)

WRAITH SHOTGUN
(the problem is still not addressed, the rate of fire)


What the balance has done:
No one cares: 20A little better: 10A lot better: 1 (the eagle which people still complain of being weak)A little worse: 2A lot worse: 3

Changed weapons viable for gold/plat before balance:
Viable:10Not viable:26
Changed weapons viable gold/plat after balance:
Viable:8Not viable:28

Conclusion, sure there were more buffs than nerfs, and sure some of the nerfs were needed, but the buffs were barely noticable while the nerfs took away out good weapons.

In my opinion, BW could have handled the size of the nerf a little differently.

This tells me that you have no idea what you're talking about.

[I_pity_the_fool]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

CharlieCC wrote...

LeandroBraz wrote...

CharlieCC wrote...

A lot of the buffs that OP has listed simply tried to make those weapons a little more usable at higher difficulties but the nerfs, specifically the Falcon/Krysae, made the weapons almost trash.

Also, I'd bet not as many people were effected by the buffs, because they don't use those weapons, compared to the number of people using the Falcon/Krysae pre-nerf.

If you want to compare what the balancing has done to this game, please compare the impact of change the balancing has had on the community and not just the % change for each individual weapon.

Everyone is affected by the buffs and the nerfs, since everyone can have and use every weapon, if you will actually use it is up to you. The point is to make every weapon a viable option.

 Off course mostly of the buffs are in weapons that few uses, after all, almost nobody is willing to use a weak weapon, but the buff make them viable to use, so you gonna see more and more people using it. One example is the Hurricane. Who cared about the hurricane when the game was released? Now it's one of the most used weapons in the game.


Other example, I'm using the mattock right now, which was a joke before the buffs.. 

This tells me that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Agreed. The talon is "a fun little pistol"?

[Hulk Hsieh]

I_pity_the_fool wrote...

Agreed. The talon is "a fun little pistol"?

The analysis fits the description few posts above perfectly:

"You cannot convince them that the buffed weapons are good, because for them 'good' means pre-nerf Krysae on an infiltrator, and obviously no gun is ever going to be buffed to that level, without someone making a huge mistake along the way."

Indra only good for Bronze/Silver? Sigh...

[Warden Kuril]

I_pity_the_fool wrote...

CharlieCC wrote...

LeandroBraz wrote...

CharlieCC wrote...

Agreed. The talon is "a fun little pistol"?

Lol, indeed.  You know, it always amazes me when people expect there to be one gun that is ideal for use on every class, putting out an obscene amount of damage and the default 'go-to-weapon' no matter what. That's not how this game was made, and i'm grateful for that. One of the issues here, I think, is that in order to perform most effectively, people are actually required to think about how a weapon matches up with a particular class.

For example, the Typhoon/GPS combo is practically made for the Destroyer, but the weight makes that combination unusable on the power-dependant turian soldier, who can dominate with something like a Harrier, or better yet, a Hurricane or Talon.

As for the reviled "low damage" weapons, including the "only works on Silver" Indra, I've done perfectly well with it on Gold,  but it's not made for classes reliant on weapon damage. I use an Indra with my turian sentinel, and it works perfectly with his strengths. It's extremely lightweight so his powers cool down rapidly, it's an accurate weapon (which is boosted by his turian passives), and the damage, while not on par with a Harrier, is nonetheless good enough to complement the warp/overload barrage.

This is an aspect of the "nerf debates" i've almost never seen, though I think it's a hugely important part of this game. And no, people who want balance are not 'trying to make all classes and guns the same'. A few might be, but those with actual brains want to make as many classes and guns viable, for the purpose of allowing players to experiment with different combinations, etc.

Modifié par Warden Kuril, 10 août 2012 - 05:25 .

[I_pity_the_fool]

including the "only works on Silver" Indra,

Oh yeah I missed this.

Link

[ph4nt0ml0rdx]

this needs to stay on the front page

[GroundTrooperDK]

Bump for Anti Whining.