436 réponses à ce sujet

[ShinTheZero]

This is an excellent read, GoldlessPaladin. The N7 Paladin would approve you.
But there is one thing, that doesn't fit the right term.

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Statistics:
The game includes 50 weapons

29 guns have been buffed.
Of these buffs...
- 3 simply decrease weight.
- 5 add between 8 and 15% damage.  Of these 5, 1 sheds a whopping 40 minimum weight and gains 28% spare ammo,  1 lost 20 minimum weight, and the other 3 are just damage boosts.
- 8 add between 16% and 25% damage.  Of these, 6 get more spare ammo (up to 40% more), 6 get reduced weight, and 1 gains weight.
- 6 add between 26% and 35% damage, making them very significant. Of these, 5 lose weight and gain spare ammo, and 1 gains weight.
- 5 add between 36% and 50% damage, making them about as significant as or more significant than the largest nerfs. Of these, 4 lose weight, 2 gain 20% more spare ammo, and 1 gets its recoil significantly slashed.
- 2 add more than 50% damage, making them considerably more significant than the largest nerfs.  One of these has an 88% increase to its sustained DPS... more than double the largest nerf.
- 2 have "mixed blessings" (with the blessings being generally better than the downsides)

14 guns have not been directly changed.

7 guns have been nerfed.
- Of these 7 nerfs, 4 are nothing but minor weight changes (Harrier weight increased 25, Reegar weight increased 25, Vindicator weight increased 20, Carnifex weight increased 15).  The other 3 (Falcon, Krysae, Typhoon) are significant, and apparently represent "constant overbearing nerfing making all of the guns useless nerf guns."  I suppose the other 47 weapons don't count.
- The 3 significant nerfs are outnumbered by buffs of similar or greater magnitude (see above), even before factoring in things like improved consumables or a gear slot.
- Of these 3 significant nerfs, none gain weight, 2 lose 17-18% spare ammo, and none lose more than 38% sustained DPS

Many of the weapons that have received buffs are now meaningful contenders in the metagame, including the Talon, Indra, Hurricane, Claymore, Scorpion, Mattock, and more.

'Many' isn't really the right term.
e.g. the Claymore would have been meaningfuel from the beginning, if there was'nt the prejudice against heavy weapons.
Most of the guns are set aside by most people, because there are still underwhelming. Phaestons are not used regularly by players, Mattock is replaced often with the Harrier (which got a slight weight nerf).
Javelin is still fairly useless on regular Infiltrators (SI and MQI are exceptions), due to Shieldgate. Even with the 10% piercing, you will have a lot of times, where a shot won't kill a shielded mob.
Eagle and Crusader are still seen as the worst weapons in the game, due to their fail-mechanics in their respective weapons classes. This can't be changed, if there isn't an overhaul on their mechanics.
Of course, they are many buffs and some of them changed the effectiveness of a weapon a lot, but even with bigger buffs than the 3 greatest nerfs, some weapons aren't that competitive.

[GodlessPaladin]

dysturbed0ne wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

CLAYMORE SHOTGUN
Original Damage: [152.8-191.0]
Current Damage: [167.8-206.0] (+8% of original damage)

Can you include the rest of the stats, like you did for most of the other high powered weapons? I'm curious where it sits next to the Piranha.

The Piranha does about 160% of the Claymore's sustained DPS If you active reload cancel the Claymore 100% perfectly and have no refire error.

Yeah.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 08 août 2012 - 08:37 .

[Stardusk]

You belong on the PC, not the Xbox, Godless. You know this. The world knows this.

[Madeline Lightning]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Shortened wrote...

Is there any chance of you doing a comparison of the weapon/power changes to the enemy faction's changes? e.g seeing if enemies have become more challenging than the current buffs to weapons/powers have been so far?

I can do that.  But I can also tell you the answer right now:  Contrary to popular hysteria, the game has gotten easier.

Didn't they increase accuracy and stats on some enemies though? There was a site illustrating that but I can't seem to find it now. It had good detailed info. If you play the game without any of the updates they are alot less accurate. I wish that guys thread was around still that had the videos. I don't remember if they officially posted it or someone just looked at the scripts.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Lord Rosario wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Revanchist01 wrote...

At the end of the day it matters not how many "buffs" or "nerfs" are implemented, its how many people will continue to play the game. If an elite few remain on each platform that wouldn't be much fun would it? Its all about numbers and the way things are going its not looking too good for bioware. I ran into a few beginners, guys who just got into MP a few days a go and they stated that they do not foresee themselves playing for a prolonged period simply because the enemy factions are so tough and access to guns that can compete is time consuming and difficult to acquire for the average, non elite gamer. Just food for thought.

And that's why I've quit playing as well. Why should I continue grinding credits in order to afford a pack which may or may not include a useful weapon or class which will be whined about on the BSN as being "too OP" and then be nerfed, forcing me to grind more credits to buy more packs to try and get more weapons that will then be whined about as being "too OP" and nerfed...

Its not the whining that gets things nerfed. Typhoon was nerfed without much [if any] whining at all. Falcon was nerfed before most people even had it.

Not *just* the whining, perhaps. But the Krysae, TC, and Piranha have all been whined about HEAVILY and then nerfed.

[DVS27t]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Shortened wrote...

Is there any chance of you doing a comparison of the weapon/power changes to the enemy faction's changes? e.g seeing if enemies have become more challenging than the current buffs to weapons/powers have been so far?

I can do that.  But I can also tell you the answer right now:  Contrary to popular hysteria, the game has gotten easier.

More players have more experience playing against the same factions, know the spawns on maps and have level 10 weapons now instead of level 1.  Most players have almost every weapon by now, so of course the game will get easier.  That is part of the life cycle. 

I can look around see where my teammates are, then run exactly to the enemy because i know where they will spawn.  This makes the game easier and isn't something I could do 5 months ago when I was an N7 20.

[Father_Jerusalem]

DVS27t wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Shortened wrote...

Is there any chance of you doing a comparison of the weapon/power changes to the enemy faction's changes? e.g seeing if enemies have become more challenging than the current buffs to weapons/powers have been so far?

I can do that.  But I can also tell you the answer right now:  Contrary to popular hysteria, the game has gotten easier.

More players have more experience playing against the same factions, know the spawns on maps and have level 10 weapons now instead of level 1.  Most players have almost every weapon by now, so of course the game will get easier.  That is part of the life cycle. 

I can look around see where my teammates are, then run exactly to the enemy because i know where they will spawn.  This makes the game easier and isn't something I could do 5 months ago when I was an N7 20.

This too.

[DVS27t]

Yosuke wrote...

ULP on a carnifex? :blink:

Sorry, that was meant for the paladin... Add that with the much higher base damage and you have a monster sidearm.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Revanchist01 wrote...

At the end of the day it matters not how many "buffs" or "nerfs" are implemented, its how many people will continue to play the game. If an elite few remain on each platform that wouldn't be much fun would it? Its all about numbers and the way things are going its not looking too good for bioware. I ran into a few beginners, guys who just got into MP a few days a go and they stated that they do not foresee themselves playing for a prolonged period simply because the enemy factions are so tough and access to guns that can compete is time consuming and difficult to acquire for the average, non elite gamer. Just food for thought.

Some Commons and Uncommons are quite decent on Gold. You don't need to play a lot to acquire them.

[WMcAlister]

Good work. It already shows how many people on BSN will still just say what they please about nerfs, guns, etc., even in the face of actual contrary evidence.

Depressingly, but predictably, the answer is "a lot."

[Rokayt]

DVS27t wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

DVS27t wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

DVS27t wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

DVS27t wrote...

BuckshotSamurai wrote...

Oh come on now. You know damned
good and well that the buffs are minuscule but when they decide to nerf
something it gets neutered. Furthermore, BW continually refuses to buff
weapons that clearly need drastic changes to make them worth
consideration on anything above Bronze. Sure, Red John can take a level
1 Human Adept with a level 1 Eagle into Gold and breeze through it in
18 minutes solo, but that doesn't make the HA or the Eagle any less crap
for the average player.

BW needs to stop making adjustments
based on the best players with optimal setups and give the average
player something to work with.

No one has an eagle that does that level of damage, first of all.  The
Paladin does that DPS as a level 1 pistol. My eagle V with barrel mod V
does about 438 DPS (28 DPS more than an avenger which is known as one of
the worst guns in the game, but when talking about a buff, this number
is significant?  Ironic indeed).  The phaeston, another buffed weapon
that deals out 462 DPS at level 10 (my V version does 415 sustained with
barrel mod, 5 DPS more than an avenger X).  Why would you use that
compared to a harrier that deals out 772DPS at level 4?  Again, a
worthless buff.  The hurricane, percentage wise, one of the largest
buffs.  but the ROF+horrible accuracy effectively halves the 770+ DPS
(remember DPS only counts if bullets connect) unless you are firing from
the hip (which reduces DPS anyways).  

So the Hurricane, Paladin, Pirhana, and Talon are all terrible weapons whose DPS Buffs alone do not outshine all the DPS that has been lost then and there?

Alone?

How about the PPR, The Mattock, The Revenant (Which has tremendous sustained DPS and Stamina,) and the Saber?

Do remember, Hipfiring does not reduce damage directly, it only does this on sniper rifles that are not the Raptor.

What about the Tempest, Which has began shining as one of the brightest sidearms in the game?

Surely, The Phastron, The Locust, The Scimitar, and Avenger deserve more then they have gotten.

This does not mean the Buffance changes mean nothing.

Tempest is a 35 accuracy gun as well.. It's okay but definitely not a top side arm contender (with ultralight pistol mod released).  PPR is only good for headshots, a steaming pile otherwise. 

The revenant and mattock had to receive 3 different damage buffs to have some level of decency.  I would be okay with this if nerfs were done in the same fashion, bit by bit.  (saber was also buffed twice).  Had they made the proper change the first time, those other two times could have been focused on something else, they were not.

Most of the nerfs were multi week. <_<

The Kyrase took two.

The Falcon got Rebuffed.

The Typhoon (Which has a stupid nerf,) got nerfed twice, implying that they were careful big nerfs.


And that statscreen accuracy the Manifest viewer shows you actually means nothing in regards to actuall in game accuracy.

It shows the smart choke improving your accuracy score by 50%, It does not show your spread getting cut in half ( Or, doubling your accuracy. )

stand about 10 feet from a wall and unload a magazine, you will see the light.  *facepalm*

If you want a proper sidearm Carnifex or Paladin with ULP is the best of the best.

Surely you jest.

Then I have to sacrifice a modslot on a gun that fires rarely.

A fully decked out Tempest is better then a ULP carnifex.

*checks Rokayt's manifest, sees he is on PC*

Phew, I never have to worry about carrying you in a lobby.  My back hurts enough already.  Enjoy your setups, most scrandoms seem to.

Muahahhaa......

Another underestimates the power of the Geth Revenant-Traitor.

(The Carnifex with EB is only mildly higher in DPS then the Tempest.

The Tempest has far better Armor DPS then the carnifex with HVB.

The Carnifex has put on a ULP, thus it cannot take another mod.

The Tempest now has a large variety of loadouts suitable to a large number of builds. The Carnifex only has a handfull of loadouts for a small handfull of builds now.

IF the Tempest were to rock an EB With AP Ammo, the carnifex would litterally stand 0 craps.

BTW Pc-no-use autoaim. Making automatic weapons viable there. )

[Atheosis]

EvanKester wrote...

Sadly, yeah. Some guns that received huge buffs still need larger buffs. But I'd say that's just indicative of the Bioware design team not being that familiar with the balance needs of a horde mode multiplayer game. The balance team has quite a job set out for it, and I'm not sure they have the resources or manpower to make all the changes as quickly as we'd all obviously prefer.

And right now, thanks to these buffs, many of the "terrible" uncommons are at least usable on Gold, and perfectly valid choices for those newer players who haven't unlocked the better guns. I'd rather they were more competitive, but what are you going to do.

But I guess I'm just a fanboy or something.

Please.  The Balance All The Things group has done most of the work for them if they would bother to use it.  Hell I have a five page document I've been working on with tons of changes that would result in a MUCH BETTER all around gaming experience.  This isn't about a lack of resources.  One capable individual with an aptitude for game balance would be able to balance this game many times better in a few weeks than BW has managed in five months.

Modifié par Atheosis, 08 août 2012 - 08:30 .

[dysturbed0ne]

death_for_sale wrote...

BuckshotSamurai wrote...

Oh come on now. You know damned good and well that the buffs are minuscule but when they decide to nerf something it gets neutered. Furthermore, BW continually refuses to buff weapons that clearly need drastic changes to make them worth consideration on anything above Bronze. Sure, Red John can take a level 1 Human Adept with a level 1 Eagle into Gold and breeze through it in 18 minutes solo, but that doesn't make the HA or the Eagle any less crap for the average player.

BW needs to stop making adjustments based on the best players with optimal setups and give the average player something to work with.

The average player has TONS of things to work with. The problem is that the average player is not content to play on a difficulty they are comfortable with because that means they can't get large numbers of credits to get the "cool" stuff.

So, in effect, the average player wants crutches to work with so that they can farm difficulties they shouldn't be attempting with their skill level. When one of those crutches gets removed, they are faced with the reality that they shouldn't be playing difficulty X and they cry out that Bioware hates them.

You are right. but (and this is very important) it doesn't stop them from playing those higher difficulties. All this does is cause more frustration when trying to complete platinum because now they lost their crutch, and I have to do more to make up for it. I would prefer they had their crutch back. I care about useful teammates, I could care less why they are useful.

And don't give the "well then we all should have cobra missiles launchers" argument, because weapons like the Pirahna, in it's current state, don't break the game. It does however give less skilled people a chance to be effective with a simple functional build.

[Yosuke]

DVS27t wrote...

Yosuke wrote...

ULP on a carnifex? :blink:

Sorry, that was meant for the paladin... Add that with the much higher base damage and you have a monster sidearm.

Ahhh

[DVS27t]

Rokayt wrote...

DVS27t wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

DVS27t wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

DVS27t wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

DVS27t wrote...

BuckshotSamurai wrote...

Oh come on now. You know damned
good and well that the buffs are minuscule but when they decide to nerf
something it gets neutered. Furthermore, BW continually refuses to buff
weapons that clearly need drastic changes to make them worth
consideration on anything above Bronze. Sure, Red John can take a level
1 Human Adept with a level 1 Eagle into Gold and breeze through it in
18 minutes solo, but that doesn't make the HA or the Eagle any less crap
for the average player.

BW needs to stop making adjustments
based on the best players with optimal setups and give the average
player something to work with.

No one has an eagle that does that level of damage, first of all.  The
Paladin does that DPS as a level 1 pistol. My eagle V with barrel mod V
does about 438 DPS (28 DPS more than an avenger which is known as one of
the worst guns in the game, but when talking about a buff, this number
is significant?  Ironic indeed).  The phaeston, another buffed weapon
that deals out 462 DPS at level 10 (my V version does 415 sustained with
barrel mod, 5 DPS more than an avenger X).  Why would you use that
compared to a harrier that deals out 772DPS at level 4?  Again, a
worthless buff.  The hurricane, percentage wise, one of the largest
buffs.  but the ROF+horrible accuracy effectively halves the 770+ DPS
(remember DPS only counts if bullets connect) unless you are firing from
the hip (which reduces DPS anyways).  

So the Hurricane, Paladin, Pirhana, and Talon are all terrible weapons whose DPS Buffs alone do not outshine all the DPS that has been lost then and there?

Alone?

How about the PPR, The Mattock, The Revenant (Which has tremendous sustained DPS and Stamina,) and the Saber?

Do remember, Hipfiring does not reduce damage directly, it only does this on sniper rifles that are not the Raptor.

What about the Tempest, Which has began shining as one of the brightest sidearms in the game?

Surely, The Phastron, The Locust, The Scimitar, and Avenger deserve more then they have gotten.

This does not mean the Buffance changes mean nothing.

Tempest is a 35 accuracy gun as well.. It's okay but definitely not a top side arm contender (with ultralight pistol mod released).  PPR is only good for headshots, a steaming pile otherwise. 

The revenant and mattock had to receive 3 different damage buffs to have some level of decency.  I would be okay with this if nerfs were done in the same fashion, bit by bit.  (saber was also buffed twice).  Had they made the proper change the first time, those other two times could have been focused on something else, they were not.

Most of the nerfs were multi week. <_<

The Kyrase took two.

The Falcon got Rebuffed.

The Typhoon (Which has a stupid nerf,) got nerfed twice, implying that they were careful big nerfs.


And that statscreen accuracy the Manifest viewer shows you actually means nothing in regards to actuall in game accuracy.

It shows the smart choke improving your accuracy score by 50%, It does not show your spread getting cut in half ( Or, doubling your accuracy. )

stand about 10 feet from a wall and unload a magazine, you will see the light.  *facepalm*

If you want a proper sidearm Carnifex or Paladin with ULP is the best of the best.

Surely you jest.

Then I have to sacrifice a modslot on a gun that fires rarely.

A fully decked out Tempest is better then a ULP carnifex.

*checks Rokayt's manifest, sees he is on PC*

Phew, I never have to worry about carrying you in a lobby.  My back hurts enough already.  Enjoy your setups, most scrandoms seem to.

Muahahhaa......

Another underestimates the power of the Geth Revenant-Traitor.

(The Carnifex with EB is only mildly higher in DPS then the Tempest.

The Tempest has far better Armor DPS then the carnifex with HVB.

The Carnifex has put on a ULP, thus it cannot take another mod.

The Tempest now has a large variety of loadouts suitable to a large number of builds. The Carnifex only has a handfull of loadouts for a small handfull of builds now.

IF the Tempest were to rock an EB With AP Ammo, the carnifex would litterally stand 0 craps.

BTW Pc-no-use autoaim. Making automatic weapons viable there. )

The carnifex is a headshot monster on any platform (actually even easier on PC).  You will not get that multiplier with the tempest, sorry. 

[Atheosis]

Stardusk wrote...

You belong on the PC, not the Xbox, Godless. You know this. The world knows this.

What does nonsense like this even mean?  

[Lord Rosario]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Revanchist01 wrote...

At the end of the day it matters not how many "buffs" or "nerfs" are implemented, its how many people will continue to play the game. If an elite few remain on each platform that wouldn't be much fun would it? Its all about numbers and the way things are going its not looking too good for bioware. I ran into a few beginners, guys who just got into MP a few days a go and they stated that they do not foresee themselves playing for a prolonged period simply because the enemy factions are so tough and access to guns that can compete is time consuming and difficult to acquire for the average, non elite gamer. Just food for thought.

And that's why I've quit playing as well. Why should I continue grinding credits in order to afford a pack which may or may not include a useful weapon or class which will be whined about on the BSN as being "too OP" and then be nerfed, forcing me to grind more credits to buy more packs to try and get more weapons that will then be whined about as being "too OP" and nerfed...

Its not the whining that gets things nerfed. Typhoon was nerfed without much [if any] whining at all. Falcon was nerfed before most people even had it.

Not *just* the whining, perhaps. But the Krysae, TC, and Piranha have all been whined about HEAVILY and then nerfed.

That doesn't mean that they were nerfed because of whining. It could simply be because the Krysae, TC, and Piranha were all too powerful in very obvious ways, thus making it very apparent to the people using them that they were op. If it's obvious to players, then BW will definately have noticed something.

The Piranha is the only one of those three that I would say didn't need a big heavy nerf... BUT it hasn't been nerfed yet. We really don't know if it will be a heavy nerf or a revert to what it was before a buff.

[Cyonan]

Very nice thread. I agree that the game has gotten easier, however I will point out one thing:

As the % of a nerf or buff increase, the nerf starts hitting harder while the buff starts hitting weaker.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

dysturbed0ne wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

BuckshotSamurai wrote...

Oh come on now. You know damned good and well that the buffs are minuscule but when they decide to nerf something it gets neutered. Furthermore, BW continually refuses to buff weapons that clearly need drastic changes to make them worth consideration on anything above Bronze. Sure, Red John can take a level 1 Human Adept with a level 1 Eagle into Gold and breeze through it in 18 minutes solo, but that doesn't make the HA or the Eagle any less crap for the average player.

BW needs to stop making adjustments based on the best players with optimal setups and give the average player something to work with.

The average player has TONS of things to work with. The problem is that the average player is not content to play on a difficulty they are comfortable with because that means they can't get large numbers of credits to get the "cool" stuff.

So, in effect, the average player wants crutches to work with so that they can farm difficulties they shouldn't be attempting with their skill level. When one of those crutches gets removed, they are faced with the reality that they shouldn't be playing difficulty X and they cry out that Bioware hates them.

You are right. but (and this is very important) it doesn't stop them from playing those higher difficulties. All this does is cause more frustration when trying to complete platinum because now they lost their crutch, and I have to do more to make up for it. I would prefer they had their crutch back. I care about useful teammates, I could care less why they are useful.

And don't give the "well then we all should have cobra missiles launchers" argument, because weapons like the Pirahna, in it's current state, don't break the game. It does however give less skilled people a chance to be effective with a simple functional build.

Thank God for kickvotes.

[LeandroBraz]

Nice thread, I'm looking forward for the rest of the stuffs..

sadly, it won't stop the anti-nerf threads to show up...

[Atheosis]

Lord Rosario wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Revanchist01 wrote...

At the end of the day it matters not how many "buffs" or "nerfs" are implemented, its how many people will continue to play the game. If an elite few remain on each platform that wouldn't be much fun would it? Its all about numbers and the way things are going its not looking too good for bioware. I ran into a few beginners, guys who just got into MP a few days a go and they stated that they do not foresee themselves playing for a prolonged period simply because the enemy factions are so tough and access to guns that can compete is time consuming and difficult to acquire for the average, non elite gamer. Just food for thought.

And that's why I've quit playing as well. Why should I continue grinding credits in order to afford a pack which may or may not include a useful weapon or class which will be whined about on the BSN as being "too OP" and then be nerfed, forcing me to grind more credits to buy more packs to try and get more weapons that will then be whined about as being "too OP" and nerfed...

Its not the whining that gets things nerfed. Typhoon was nerfed without much [if any] whining at all. Falcon was nerfed before most people even had it.

Not *just* the whining, perhaps. But the Krysae, TC, and Piranha have all been whined about HEAVILY and then nerfed.

That doesn't mean that they were nerfed because of whining. It could simply be because the Krysae, TC, and Piranha were all too powerful in very obvious ways, thus making it very apparent to the people using them that they were op. If it's obvious to players, then BW will definately have noticed something.

The Piranha is the only one of those three that I would say didn't need a big heavy nerf... BUT it hasn't been nerfed yet. We really don't know if it will be a heavy nerf or a revert to what it was before a buff.

The Piranha is categorically more powerful than any gun this game has ever seen.  I'm constantly puzzled at people who don't get how overpowered it really is.

[Bechter]

scheherazade wrote...

How about expressing the buffs/nerfs in terms of DPS, rather than %?

You could go from 1dps to 10dps, and have a 1000% buff... (+9 dps)
You could go from 1000 dps to 900dps, and have a 10% nerf... (-100 dps)

9 dps buff is nothing compared to a -100 dps nerf.

A lot of the buffed guns were buffed from 'trash' to 'trash'.
A lot of the nerfed guns were nerfed from 'awesome' to 'ok'.

-scheherazade

This!

[DVS27t]

LeandroBraz wrote...

Nice thread, I'm looking forward for the rest of the stuffs..

sadly, it won't stop the anti-nerf threads to show up...

It is a nice thread, but I don't think it shows what you really want it to show. 

There is an issue with how BW does their balancing (krysae nerf #2 would have been okay had they not dumped the ROF completely flushing the sustained DPS down the toilet).  The falcon nerf was one giant hammer.  Versus above mentioned weapons that were buffed 2-3 times, not to make them good, but to make them less crappy.