436 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Rosario]

rmccowen wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

And what are the percentages of those buffs, and in comparison to the buffs/nerfs of weapons?

[EDIT: Most balance changes to enemies are tiered; the values below are the Gold changes.]

Assuming my math is right, and going off the list posted upthread (with a bit of spot-checking):

Geth Trooper: +16.7% damage, +10% health
Geth Pyro: +30% damage, +56% shields; reduced chance to evade
Geth Hunter: +20% health, +50% shields; increased movement speed while cloaked, decreased aiming delay
Geth Prime: Reduced likelihood of being staggered
Atlas: +25% shields, +36.3% armor; more frequent sync kills, shots per cannon burst increased from 3 to 4
Centurion: +10.2% health; likes to approach closer, shield recharge delay decreased
Guardian: +20% health
Cerberus Turret: +16.6% health, +16.6% shields
Nemesis: +16.6% health, +15% shields

As you can see, only Pyros, Hunters, and the Atlas really got scarier, and some units didn't get buffed at all. Pyros and Atlases were the only units that got damage bonuses (with an effective 25% boost for one of the attacks of the Atlas)--so most of the changes are just making enemies last slightly longer in a firefight.

I find it particularly interesting to look at these changes with a gear-generated 15% bonus to player damage in mind as a crude baseline for power creep: with a bit of wiggle room, most units are keeping pace with us, or have actually lost ground. Again, only the Pyro, Hunter, and Atlas have grown substantially tougher than they were relative to the PCs.

You forgot that bosses no longer have heads.

[Bechter]

Ashen Earth wrote...

cameron_bech wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

I'm going to come right out and say it, I was using the Particle Rifle before the buff. It wasn't the buff that made the weapon so incredibly effective, it has always been effective with that setup.

It's more that people don't know how to make good builds. If the average player had even the slightest idea on how to make weapons like the Particle Rifle effective, the forum would never recover from the influx of nerf threads.

This coming from the guy who told me the Pirahna was "the worst gun in the game game" a few days after its release.

I dislike the gun in general because of it's ****** poor accuracy. "Worst gun in the game"? Maybe not, but it is worthless without a smart choke, or at least an accuracy boosting passive ability.

It works fine on some classes, but there are seriously better options.

Well, maybe not if you play Platinum, or Reapers/Gold exclusively where everything is so obnoxiously large that the Piranha's theoretical DPS is actually a reality because all of the pellets hit.

Just had to call you on that comment been waiting for a time to pounce .

Guess I'll have to give the particle rifle a try. Did a all particle rifle, human soldier, Reaper gold run and three particles rifles firing on a banshee didn't interrupt her grap. I can't remember if that was pre or post buff.

[Bechter]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

I have no trouble hitting with it against Geth or Cerberus either.  You should be taking advantage of its unique and utterly predictable spread shape to maximize its coverage and hit multiple enemies at a time.  This means aiming down and off to the side of enemies (ideally between multiple enemies) if you're not at close range.

I just use the RedJohn method where the key is "to not shot one but all in the face at the same time. That way they all die and can't shoot back."

RedJohn's Guide to Solo, Gold, or Fun!

[rmccowen]

Lord Rosario wrote...

You forgot that bosses no longer have heads.

How do you suggest I account for that in a straightforward way?

Also, if you're going to split hairs, it's important to note that only one boss had its headshot removed. The Atlas had multiple meshes over the cockpit, as a holdover from SP; you can still headshot Phantoms; and Banshees, Brutes, and Ravagers never had any available precision damage bonus in the first place.

[Kasrkin]

Shampoohorn wrote...

A reduction in weapn cooldown bonus from 200 to 175 results in about a 7% change in actual recharge time due to the equation Bioware uses.  You don't really see an equivalency between penalties and recharge time until your weapon bonus is around 50.  That's when a 0.25 weight increase approaches a 25% recharge penalty.

Since casters are usually close to 200% anyways, it's not as big a deal as it appears.

Well said.  I cannot really discern a difference between 170% and 200% cooldowns, not with the naked eye.  This is spamming chain overload for crowd control. 

So yeah.  Not a show stopper to go to 170, at the very least.  Not on short cooldown powers. 

If you have longer cooldown powers then it will have a much more measurable effect.

[Lord Rosario]

rmccowen wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

You forgot that bosses no longer have heads.

How do you suggest I account for that in a straightforward way?

Also, if you're going to split hairs, it's important to note that only one boss had its headshot removed. The Atlas had multiple meshes over the cockpit, as a holdover from SP; you can still headshot Phantoms; and Banshees, Brutes, and Ravagers never had any available precision damage bonus in the first place.

Oh, I only meant that as a footnote to your post. Didn't mean to come off in a "Haha, you forgot this!' way. Sorry about that. ^^;

[Ashen One]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

cameron_bech wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

I'm going to come right out and say it, I was using the Particle Rifle before the buff. It wasn't the buff that made the weapon so incredibly effective, it has always been effective with that setup.

It's more that people don't know how to make good builds. If the average player had even the slightest idea on how to make weapons like the Particle Rifle effective, the forum would never recover from the influx of nerf threads.

This coming from the guy who told me the Pirahna was "the worst gun in the game game" a few days after its release.

I dislike the gun in general because of it's ****** poor accuracy. "Worst gun in the game"? Maybe not, but it is worthless without a smart choke, or at least an accuracy boosting passive ability.

It works fine on some classes, but there are seriously better options.

Well, maybe not if you play Platinum, or Reapers/Gold exclusively where everything is so obnoxiously large that the Piranha's theoretical DPS is actually a reality because all of the pellets hit.

I have no trouble hitting with it against Geth or Cerberus either.  You should be taking advantage of its unique and utterly predictable spread shape to maximize its coverage and hit multiple enemies at a time.  This means aiming down and off to the side of enemies (ideally between multiple enemies) if you're not at close range.

I have even less trouble decapitating Centurions/Marauders/Hunters with a Wraith/Claymore in a single shot from ranges where the Piranha is utterly ineffective, regardless of the aiming trick you just posted.

Versus lone targets at range, the Piranha only has the advantage vs bosses.

[GodlessPaladin]

Kasrkin wrote...

Shampoohorn wrote...

A reduction in weapn cooldown bonus from 200 to 175 results in about a 7% change in actual recharge time due to the equation Bioware uses.  You don't really see an equivalency between penalties and recharge time until your weapon bonus is around 50.  That's when a 0.25 weight increase approaches a 25% recharge penalty.

Since casters are usually close to 200% anyways, it's not as big a deal as it appears.

Well said.  I cannot really discern a difference between 170% and 200% cooldowns, not with the naked eye.  This is spamming chain overload for crowd control. 

So yeah.  Not a show stopper to go to 170, at the very least.  Not on short cooldown powers. 

If you have longer cooldown powers then it will have a much more measurable effect.

https://docs.google....gxTVc2U1E#gid=1

[Oich]

rmccowen wrote...
[EDIT: Most balance changes to enemies are tiered; the values below are the Gold changes.]

Assuming my math is right, and going off the list posted upthread (with a bit of spot-checking):

Geth Trooper: +16.7% damage, +10% health
Geth Pyro: +30% damage, +56% shields; reduced chance to evade
Geth Hunter: +20% health, +50% shields; increased movement speed while cloaked, decreased aiming delay
Geth Prime: Reduced likelihood of being staggered
Atlas: +25% shields, +36.3% armor; more frequent sync kills, shots per cannon burst increased from 3 to 4
Centurion: +10.2% health; likes to approach closer, shield recharge delay decreased
Guardian: +20% health
Cerberus Turret: +16.6% health, +16.6% shields
Nemesis: +16.6% health, +15% shields

As you can see, only Pyros, Hunters, and the Atlas really got scarier, and some units didn't get buffed at all. Pyros and Atlases were the only units that got damage bonuses (with an effective 25% boost for one of the attacks of the Atlas)--so most of the changes are just making enemies last slightly longer in a firefight.

I find it particularly interesting to look at these changes with a gear-generated 15% bonus to player damage in mind as a crude baseline for power creep: with a bit of wiggle room, most units are keeping pace with us, or have actually lost ground. Again, only the Pyro, Hunter, and Atlas have grown substantially tougher than they were relative to the PCs.

Great OP and great quoted post.

I could be remembering completely wrong though, but I could swear that Primes now spawn two turrets as opposed to one and have 4-shot cannon burst as opposed to three. I don't remember if that extra shot affects the Prime's actual DPS though. Certainly the extra turret does. (However small it may actually be)

EDIT: I was wrong. Atlas' got the burst-fire buff, can't find anything saying Primes used to only spawn one turret.

Modifié par Oich, 15 août 2012 - 09:37 .

[ZombieGambit]

The trouble is that the weapons that are buffed are still not near as good as the mega-nerfed weapons used to be, i.e. the Mattock still can't hold a candle to the original Krysae. Also, most of the buffed weapons are still useless, like the Geth Pulse Rifle, the only ones that have benefited from buffs were the ones that were already good anyway, like the Mattock, Talon, and Claymore.

[Ashen One]

cameron_bech wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

cameron_bech wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

I'm going to come right out and say it, I was using the Particle Rifle before the buff. It wasn't the buff that made the weapon so incredibly effective, it has always been effective with that setup.

It's more that people don't know how to make good builds. If the average player had even the slightest idea on how to make weapons like the Particle Rifle effective, the forum would never recover from the influx of nerf threads.

This coming from the guy who told me the Pirahna was "the worst gun in the game game" a few days after its release.

I dislike the gun in general because of it's ****** poor accuracy. "Worst gun in the game"? Maybe not, but it is worthless without a smart choke, or at least an accuracy boosting passive ability.

It works fine on some classes, but there are seriously better options.

Well, maybe not if you play Platinum, or Reapers/Gold exclusively where everything is so obnoxiously large that the Piranha's theoretical DPS is actually a reality because all of the pellets hit.

Just had to call you on that comment been waiting for a time to pounce .

Guess I'll have to give the particle rifle a try. Did a all particle rifle, human soldier, Reaper gold run and three particles rifles firing on a banshee didn't interrupt her grap. I can't remember if that was pre or post buff.

Incendiary Ammo IV and any class that can boost RoF will stack enough DoT on a Banshee within seconds to stop her charge, or interrupt instakills.

Of course, it's not as effective when they shed the DoT due to team mates spamming projectile powers at her.

[xtorma]

I'd like to see an analysis on enemy buffs, as they directly effect every weapon and power.

[Zero132132]

This doesn't matter. Buffs don't do much for the community, since they'll never buff something (except Piranha) to an extent that makes it so that the playerbase is actually more effective. Conversely, since the community gravitates towards good weapons/classes, nerfs to these adversely effect the overall effectiveness of the playerbase.

In essence, by the nature of balance, buffs will almost always be neutral while nerfs will almost always be negative in effect.

[whateverman7]

you forgot to factor in the buffs to the enemies...i dont know why people keep ignoring those, those are more important than the ones to specific weapons since they affect every weapon, build, & power...

Modifié par whateverman7, 08 août 2012 - 09:40 .

[Bechter]

xtorma wrote...

I'd like to see an analysis on enemy buffs, as they directly effect every weapon and power.

They could nerf the Pirahna down to the disciple if they eliminated Geth turrets from the game. They are like a never ending Pirahna that appears anywhere on the map without notice, line of sight, or logic.

[Zero132132]

One other thing. After playing with the Typhoon, I suspect that the damage multiplier (2x to 1.5x, or 100% vs. 50% increase) was additive rather than multiplicative with the damage boosts to armor, barriers, and shields (2x each, or 100% more), so instead of nerfing the effective damage output by about a quarter, against stuff that doesn't have health, the actual damage multiplier for a charged-up Typhoon went from 3x (200% increase) to 2.5x (150% increase), an effective nerf of 1/6th rather than 1/4th.

I think it's this way, at least, since the thing is still effective as **** against Brutes, Banshees, Ravagers, Atlases, Primes, and Pyros, but seems to be fairly unimpressive against husks/cannibals and the like compared to other weapons.

[SgtMac20]

GP, how dare you!?!? How dare you, sir! My beloved Piranha NERFED and all you can do is throw factual data in my face!

Ok, I'm joking. Actually, my Batarian Soldier is my main guy and they buffed Ballistic Blades, so I can't really complain. Bioware giveth and Bioware taketh away.

[Star fury]

So now we have a good stick to beat "anti-nerfer kids" with.

[Father_Jerusalem]

And again I'd like to point out that you're not incorporating glitches in your buffs to enemies, because as they have no been fixed (nor, in almost all occasions, even been addressed), they can only be described as "working as intended" and be stealth buffs.

Banshee magnet hands, Geth rocket troopers triple shots, Geth hunters firing while staggered, Geth pyros flamethrower range, Phantom magnet hands... I'm sure there are others I've missed.

[rmccowen]

whateverman7 wrote...

you forgot to factor in the buffs to the enemies...i dont know why people keep ignoring those, those are more important than the ones to specific weapons since they affect every weapon, build, & power...

You know, you're right! He doesn't list buffs to enemies in the OP. It would be great if someone had tabulated that and put it up later in the thread.

EDIT:

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

And again I'd like to point out
that you're not incorporating glitches in your buffs to enemies, because
as they have no been fixed (nor, in almost all occasions, even been
addressed), they can only be described as "working as intended" and be
stealth buffs.

Banshee magnet hands, Geth rocket troopers triple
shots, Geth hunters firing while staggered, Geth pyros flamethrower
range, Phantom magnet hands... I'm sure there are others I've
missed.

Okay. Then point out exactly what the changes are, how they impact players (that is, what's the marginal change in damage, death rates per wave, or likelihood of extraction), and when they happened.

Because otherwise, you've shifted the goalposts from "please talk about enemy buffs" to an impossible standard of evidence that requires someone to go through and account for every glitch or unintended behavior on the part of the enemies, and along the way do a whole lot of work on top of what's already been done in this thread.

Or, alternately, you're just invested in the idea that nerfs are terrible and buffs are meaningless, and you're experiencing/exhibiting cognitive dissonance.

Modifié par rmccowen, 08 août 2012 - 10:03 .

[Mojenator12345]

scheherazade wrote...

A lot of the buffed guns were buffed from 'trash' to 'trash'.
A lot of the nerfed guns were nerfed from 'awesome' to 'ok'.

Truth.

[Poison_Berrie]

Shampoohorn wrote...

Two friends, trapped in different universes/timelines, never able to truly be together.  It has the makings of a great 1 hour drama.  Maybe someday they will be united.

LOL!

ZombieGambit wrote...

The trouble is that the weapons that are buffed are still not near as good as the mega-nerfed weapons used to be, i.e. the Mattock still can't hold a candle to the original Krysae. Also, most of the buffed weapons are still useless, like the Geth Pulse Rifle, the only ones that have benefited from buffs were the ones that were already good anyway, like the Mattock, Talon, and Claymore.

1) You shouldn't aim to buff your guns to the level of the ones you nerf. The Mattock has become a very solid weapon that works on all difficulty levels. 
2) Most is overblowing things. There have been those who's buffs haven't been enough, but quite a few guns have seen benefit from the buffs. 
Examples include, Phaeston, Indra, Arc Pistol, Viper, Tempest and arguably the Eagle (who went from terrible to reasonable).

whateverman7 wrote...

you forgot to factor in the buffs to the enemies...i dont know why people keep ignoring those, those are more important than the ones to specific weapons since they affect every weapon, build, & power...

Enemy buffs have mostly been adding 10-25% to health/shields. There's been a few with higher buffs, a few changes to behavior and three increases in damage (Geth Trooper and Pyro and ATLAS extra shot). 
See rmccowen's post for the numbers.

Also important to remember is that enemy buffs are made because enemies proof to easy for the player, rather than the continously postulated opposite. 
The first Geth buffs where because the faction consisted practically only of weak infantry units.
Also note how these buff allowed their bugs to be highlighted since they lasted longer there was more time to show their bugged behavior. 
The Cerberus buffs, where in response to Cerberus becoming the most beaten and choosen enemy on all difficulties. Their end result hardly changed anything except requiring a few extra shots.

The conclusion thus becomes that most enemy buffs are in response to already existing imbalance on the side of the AI faction. And rather puts them in line with what is supposed to be their position.

[Star fury]

Mojenator12345 wrote...

scheherazade wrote...

A lot of the buffed guns were buffed from 'trash' to 'trash'.
A lot of the nerfed guns were nerfed from 'awesome' to 'ok'.

Truth.

Give me a list of awesome guns that were nerfed into trash. Your buddy can participate too.

[Mojenator12345]

Star fury wrote...

Mojenator12345 wrote...

scheherazade wrote...

A lot of the buffed guns were buffed from 'trash' to 'trash'.
A lot of the nerfed guns were nerfed from 'awesome' to 'ok'.

Truth.

Give me a list of awesome guns that were nerfed into trash. Your buddy can participate too.

Go back and read that again.

Trash was buffed into trash.  Great guns were nerfed into ok guns. 

[Bechter]

Star fury wrote...

Mojenator12345 wrote...

scheherazade wrote...

A lot of the buffed guns were buffed from 'trash' to 'trash'.
A lot of the nerfed guns were nerfed from 'awesome' to 'ok'.

Truth.

Give me a list of awesome guns that were nerfed into trash. Your buddy can participate too.

Before you start demanding list you should re-read the original post. No where in it does it make the statement "awesome guns that were nerfed into trash"

and the nerf army tries to act like they are the intelligent ones on the board.