436 réponses à ce sujet

[robarcool]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

robarcool wrote...

I would suggest to put in enemy buffs as well to reveal more about the balance changes. The weapon buffs are there, but so are the enemy buff (cough, geth).

The enemy buffs aren't very big.  Heck, Reapers haven't gotten any buffs at all. 

Also notable is that enemy numbers don't fit together cleanly with the math for weapon numbers.  What you actually care about are things like thresholds and formations.  But really, I don't see it particularly necessary to go through all that considering that if you actually thought the enemy buffs mattered, you could just play against Reapers instead, who haven't gotten buffed at all.

I was thinking on the lines on the health boost given to the enemies which would change the amount of shots (and hence time) taken from some top tier guns to kill them. Also, I was thinking about the 90% shieldgate and how helpful it is to the one shot snipers. Today's buffs (platinum exclusive) could also be given some thought.

Modifié par robarcool, 08 août 2012 - 10:38 .

[nicethugbert]

Enemies have been buffed.

[Star fury]

Mojenator12345 wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Mojenator12345 wrote...

scheherazade wrote...

A lot of the buffed guns were buffed from 'trash' to 'trash'.
A lot of the nerfed guns were nerfed from 'awesome' to 'ok'.

Truth.

Give me a list of awesome guns that were nerfed into trash. Your buddy can participate too.

Go back and read that again.

Trash was buffed into trash.  Great guns were nerfed into ok guns. 

Problem with reading comprehension? List of "awesome guns that were nerfed into trash". It's your words, not mine.

[Rokayt]

nicethugbert wrote...

Some* Enemies have been buffed.

The Reapers are untouched.

[Javo2357]

Really well thought out and insightful post GP. Thanks for sharing!

[Bechter]

Star fury wrote...

Mojenator12345 wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Mojenator12345 wrote...

scheherazade wrote...

A lot of the buffed guns were buffed from 'trash' to 'trash'.
A lot of the nerfed guns were nerfed from 'awesome' to 'ok'.

Truth.

Give me a list of awesome guns that were nerfed into trash. Your buddy can participate too.

Go back and read that again.

Trash was buffed into trash.  Great guns were nerfed into ok guns. 

Problem with reading comprehension? List of "awesome guns that were nerfed into trash". It's your words, not mine.

Maybe the English Language is to OP for you to comprehend and must be nerf....? Go ahead and bold anywhere in the original post where he used the words "awesome guns that were nerfed into trash." + 10 internets for you if you find it.

[xtorma]

Rokayt wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Some* Enemies have been buffed.

The Reapers are untouched.

Most* enemies have been buffed.

[Star fury]

cameron_bech wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Mojenator12345 wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Mojenator12345 wrote...

scheherazade wrote...

A lot of the buffed guns were buffed from 'trash' to 'trash'.
A lot of the nerfed guns were nerfed from 'awesome' to 'ok'.

Truth.

Give me a list of awesome guns that were nerfed into trash. Your buddy can participate too.

Go back and read that again.

Trash was buffed into trash.  Great guns were nerfed into ok guns. 

Problem with reading comprehension? List of "awesome guns that were nerfed into trash". It's your words, not mine.

Maybe the English Language is to OP for you to comprehend and must be nerf....? Go ahead and bold anywhere in the original post where he used the words "awesome guns that were nerfed into trash." + 10 internets for you if you find it.

Are you dumb? What do you want from me?

[UKStory135]

GP,

Great Job on this as always. For the most part, I feel the balance in this game is pretty decent. I do have a few issues, like everyone else. 1.) Sniper Rifles are not very efficient on higher difficulty levels. This was true even before the TC nerf and is even more-so now. I'm not going to be hyperbolic and say they are useless, because they aren't. 2.) With the overly done nerf to the Typhoon, it has joined the ranks of both the Indra and the Wraith as the Ultra-Rare weapons that are too level dependent to be considered balanced. 3.) Weapons and Tech Based classes are much stronger and more viable against Platinum and even a few Gold enemies than the Biotic Caster classes atm. Right now, I would not choose any of the Biotic classes to play in a PUG U/U/G game.

[AwesomeDudex64]

Thanks for this but I'm not gonna agree with all of the nerfs. Some were fine, others were over the top and should be rolled back.

[najzere]

Great post OP. Just a couple thoughts I think somewhat mitigate what you're trying to express (that we have received more buffs than nerfs).

First, everything is considered at max level, which is only helpful for people who have completed their manifests. For newer players or players that don't have a lot of time to play, we're presented with a widening gulf between the enemy getting stronger and the ever-increasing number of weapons and gear that dilute our chances to bring us up to power parity. Although you say the game has gotten easier, do you think it is easier to start out now than it was in the beginning of the MP?

Second, as others have touched on already, some thought should go into where each of these weapons lands in the metagame. After all, a gun no one uses that gets buffed to a level where still no one uses it is less impactful than a weapon everyone uses being nerfed to half the people using it.

I think your post laid good groundwork for an analytical look at the balance changes, and now just needs to add context layered in so we can see what's happening to the game as a whole. For instance, I remember in another thread of yours you say that even with its huge buff there is still no reason to use the Eagle. If we could isolate the buffs and nerfs that have materially changed the game, it would lead to a more meaningful comparison than "29 to 7".

[Grunt_Platform]

najzere wrote...

Great post OP. Just a couple thoughts I think somewhat mitigate what you're trying to express (that we have received more buffs than nerfs).

First, everything is considered at max level, which is only helpful for people who have completed their manifests. For newer players or players that don't have a lot of time to play, we're presented with a widening gulf between the enemy getting stronger and the ever-increasing number of weapons and gear that dilute our chances to bring us up to power parity. Although you say the game has gotten easier, do you think it is easier to start out now than it was in the beginning of the MP?

Second, as others have touched on already, some thought should go into where each of these weapons lands in the metagame. After all, a gun no one uses that gets buffed to a level where still no one uses it is less impactful than a weapon everyone uses being nerfed to half the people using it.
[...]

Just want to point out that people without maxed manifests actually get some mileage out of weapons like the Phaeston, Mattock and Revenant being buffed, even if they're not top-tier competitive. Each of these guns is much easier to acquire than the similar guns that out-class them. Heck, the Mattock's kind of awesome right now, if you don't mind clicking.

I can't speak for GP, but from what I've seen, the addition of powerful classes with easy learning curves like the GI and the Male Quarians, and buffs to the Common and Uncommon classes has made it much easier to transition from Silver to Gold. Even after nerfs, the GI and male quarians are amazingly strong. And the addition of gear also helps offset the drawbacks to some of the more mediocre weapons.

Modifié par EvanKester, 08 août 2012 - 10:59 .

[Xaijin]

And frankly, a lot of that talk is hysterical nonsense

With the exception of the eagle and pull and grenades, nerfs have been of a consistently larger single % shift on the target item/power than buffs in numerical range. That's not even up for debate, and where many of the complaints come from.

[landylan]

I'm not sure I completely get the idea of balancing based on what the players use. I also hate how they most dlc guns get some kind of nerf.

Why aren't they buffing stuff like the destroyer missile launcher??? Is it just because people play as a the destroyer a lot?

[Rokayt]

xtorma wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Some* Enemies have been buffed.

The Reapers are untouched.

Most* enemies have been buffed.

Cerberus has been barely buffed.

I remember there being threads of "Wait, that is all?!?!?"

It was all health. :innocent:

[LDStaredown]

OP is the best poster on this forum.

[IndigoVitare]

I'm sure it's only a matter of time before the Piranha becomes considered one of those "severe nerfs" players use in arguments.

Which should mean that, seeing as how the amount changed is virtually identical, the buff it received day 1 was also severe?

Oh what's that? There's only been miniscule buffs? How odd...

[jd8291]

Of course, this ignores the buffs to the enemy factions.

Trooper

• 10% heath increase
• 17%weapon damage increase

Pyro

• 56% armor increase
• 30% weapon damage increase

Hunter

• 20% Health increase
• 50 % shields 
  increase

Guardian

• 20% health increase

Turret

• 17% health and shields increase

Nemesis

• 17% health increase
• 12% shields increase

Atlas

• 20% Armor Increase

Modifié par jd8291, 08 août 2012 - 11:30 .

[najzere]

EvanKester wrote...
Just want to point out that people without maxed manifests actually get some mileage out of weapons like the Phaeston, Mattock and Revenant being buffed, even if they're not top-tier competitive. Each of these guns is much easier to acquire than the similar guns that out-class them. Heck, the Mattock's kind of awesome right now, if you don't mind clicking.

I can't speak for GP, but from what I've seen, the addition of powerful classes with easy learning curves like the GI and the Male Quarians, and buffs to the Common and Uncommon classes has made it much easier to transition from Silver to Gold. Even after nerfs, the GI and male quarians are amazingly strong. And the addition of gear also helps offset the drawbacks to some of the more mediocre weapons.

Yeah fair points. I know for me personally, I am only able to play Gold matches using casters and Infiltrators. I can use a more weapon-centric class on Silver, but, with the possible exception of the Indra III I have been lucky enough to get, none of my weapons feel very substantial on Gold. Although I like the gameplay, I am playing for a reward as well and I consider unlocking and leveling up my stuff to be the reward. Now I have to purchase a lot more packs to get a Carnifex X or Mattock X, let's say, than I would have before the the first DLC.

Even though I do play Gold now, I definitely don't feel confident in finishing the wave 10 objective without a strong group and I can't reliably carry later waves on my own, especially not without taking a really long time. If classes have gotten more powerful and easier to use that's great—it's probably allowing me to earn credits faster on a higher difficulty sooner—but I think I'd be having an even easier time if I could get a good weapon maxed. Meanwhile, if we're playing Geth or Cerberus I'm faced with 100% of any buffs they've received, not a portion of those buffs to correspond to the portion of my manifest I've filled out.

[Zjarcal]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

...this new shield recharge mechanic nerf every gun and power in the game by?

That one is actually a buff to weapons with a slower rate of fire.

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Enemy shield regeneration mechanics on Platinum are being tweaked to increase the delay before shields/barriers start regenerating. Once they start regenerating, however, they will regenerate at a faster rate and up to a higher maximum. This is to give slow firing weapons more time to prevent the regeneration.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 08 août 2012 - 11:48 .

[Revanchist01]

[/quote]

Problem with reading comprehension? List of "awesome guns that were nerfed into trash". It's your words, not mine.

[/quote]

Maybe the English Language is to OP for you to comprehend and must be nerf....? Go ahead and bold anywhere in the original post where he used the words "awesome guns that were nerfed into trash." + 10 internets for you if you find it.
[/quote]

Are you dumb? What do you want from me?

[/quote]

LOL, you just keep digging yourself into a deeper and deeper doo doo hole aren't ya? I've read the OP and can't find those combinations of words at all...

[Bechter]

Revanchist01,

You sir are my favorite poster on the forums. I gave up on that lost cause.

Modifié par cameron_bech, 08 août 2012 - 11:58 .

[Blind2Society]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Power Creep

I keep seeing this mentioned and it's always in relation to our abilities. However, I haven't noticed a single bit of it on our side. The enemies however have gotten steadily more powerful. With the Geth it seemed to happen over night so it wasn't really a creep but with cerberus it definitely was. I am now limited to playing Reapers and I have a feeling the power creep you speak of will be hitting them soon enough as well.

[Grunt_Platform]

Blind2Society wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Power Creep

I keep seeing this mentioned and it's always in relation to our abilities. However, I haven't noticed a single bit of it on our side. The enemies however have gotten steadily more powerful. With the Geth it seemed to happen over night so it wasn't really a creep but with cerberus it definitely was. I am now limited to playing Reapers and I have a feeling the power creep you speak of will be hitting them soon enough as well.

Bioware's stated goal when buffing Cerberus was to put it on the same difficulty level as Reapers and Geth, who they are generally happy with.

As for power creep on the player side: Just compare a shotgun Geth Infiltrator, with a Shotgun Amp V, Shotgun Rail Amp III, Adrenaline Module III and AP Ammo IV today to a Human or Salarian Infiltrator at launch, with the closest equivalent load out. So Claymore X to Claymore X. The way the GI is so much stronger now than the old HI with pretty much the same kit is power creep.

Even comparing a current shotgun HI to the shotgun HI at launch, the newer one is plainly stronger, and is now considered fairly mediocre, where the old shotgun HI was top tier. 

Modifié par EvanKester, 09 août 2012 - 12:25 .