109 réponses à ce sujet

[MerinTB]

I saw it. It was ok.

Not Cameron's best, IMO, by far. Not his most engaging, not his most imaginative, and definitely not his best story or drama.

Best effects, sure.

I mistakenly read a review that made the "Fern Gully" comparison, and that's all I could think about the whole movie was making those connections.

It wasn't a bad movie, but it certainly was (IMO) Cameron's Dollhouse.

Modifié par MerinTB, 26 décembre 2009 - 06:59 .

[AshedMan]

And there's always that 10th dentist who doesn't recommend toothpaste...

[MerinTB]

Just to go a bit more against the grain here -

there is some talk about how this is about imperialist nations and indigenous peoples and such.



It's more about a corporation with a private army (it's like Haliburton and Blackwater) trying to move aside spiritualistic, nativist animists to get at precious natural resources. Giovanni Ribisi's corporate man was insensitive and indifferent, the Colonel played by Stephen Lang was your stereotypical "murderous military psychopath" often added to such films - but the goal of the corporation wanting those resources was no more selfish than the people wanting to keep their tree (if they were truly spirutalist and one with the land shouldn't they also have the "no one owns the land" beliefs, too?)



The visuals (if we discount the design of the aliens - I was creeped out and unimpressed with them the whole film, kept reminding me it wasn't real) from the flora to the fauna to the world and all the action sequences were very impressive. There were several key, exciting moments in the film that, while utterly predictable, still stirred me.



The story, however, was hackneyed and cliched. I'm all for narratives that paint private contractors (*cough* mercenaries) in a bad light, and any company that is willing to kill people for a profit - but the pacing and delivery and details of the story were not well done in this film, which is sad as Cameron is a great story-teller. It is a let down to go from Terminator and Abyss to Avatar, for me at least.



The one good thing about Avatar is that the scientists, for once, were not the bad guys.

[Endurium]

MerinTB wrote...

...the goal of the corporation wanting those resources was no more selfish than the people wanting to keep their tree (if they were truly spirutalist and one with the land shouldn't they also have the "no one owns the land" beliefs, too?)

The corporations ruined Earth (killed Gaia according to Jake) and were looking for other planets to exploit solely for profit. They would stop at nothing to exploit Pandora, even if it meant killing/subjugating all Na'vi. Blatant selfishness and greed, not to mention a total disrespect for life.

The Na'vi are children of Eywa who treasure all they receive from her, including Treehome. There is nothing selfish about them trying to defend their home.

Your comments indicate you seem to have completely missed the whole point of Eywa and the Na'vi relationship with her, as well as Jake's plea to her (I missed that the first time because of a restroom visit).

I suggest everyone see the movie at least once, and make your own conclusions. It's completely entertaining, though people with 'full cups' may have difficulty enjoying it (too bad for you).

Modifié par Endurium, 26 décembre 2009 - 10:08 .

[Brass_Buckles]

I went to see it and I loved it. The plot, of course, is pretty standard, and the premise is also sort of "been there, done that." From the trailers, though, I'd have said the movie would totally stink. This was not the case. I thought Cameron did a great job of bringing it to life and telling the story. Like a poster above, I was reluctant to leave Pandora afterward. I'm looking forward to buying the DVD (or Blu-Ray if I get a player for that sometime soon.) At the same time, I'm pretty sure my cowardly little real-life self wouldn't have survived Jake's Na'vi training! But I guess it's not as much a problem when you are only risking your avatar.

[Default137]

It was alright.



Honestly the story was nothing special, and has been done hundreds of times before, none of the characters really gripped me, and some of the stuff really didn't need to be in the movie, at all ( I'm looking at you 10 minute sex scene ) it just kind of felt like it could have been so much better then it was.



With that said, the CGI was great, and some of the fights and whatnot were really well done, its probably the top of the line in that sort of thing, so if you really like seeing giant battles brilliantly rendered, you will most likely love Avatar.



On the other hand, it did make me want to watch Ferngully again, and yeah, its a blatant copy of that old movie, almost word for word at parts >_>

[MerinTB]

Endurium wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

...the goal of the corporation wanting those resources was no more selfish than the people wanting to keep their tree (if they were truly spirutalist and one with the land shouldn't they also have the "no one owns the land" beliefs, too?)

The corporations ruined Earth (killed Gaia according to Jake) and were looking for other planets to exploit solely for profit. They would stop at nothing to exploit Pandora, even if it meant killing/subjugating all Na'vi. Blatant selfishness and greed, not to mention a total disrespect for life.

The Na'vi are children of Eywa who treasure all they receive from her, including Treehome. There is nothing selfish about them trying to defend their home.

Your comments indicate you seem to have completely missed the whole point of Eywa and the Na'vi relationship with her, as well as Jake's plea to her (I missed that the first time because of a restroom visit).

Their "god" (really, the conglomerate of their joint-networked bio-organsim) was in all the living things and they could connect and disconnect via their USB tails.  No, I got it.

Their trees were endless redundant ethernet cables via branches and roots.  Their special white soul trees were like server farms of stacked HDDs.

I really got it.

It was clear their people could survive without that tree they lived in - they clearly did.  It was clear their people could live places other than that tree - many tribes lived elsewhere.  And it was really clear that, for some time (years?) the corporation had been TRYING to negotiate with the people for the spot where the ore was.  I am positive the corporation would have left the tree standing or moved the tree or planted thousands of trees to replace Treehome if the aliens had agreed to move.

Was the corporation right for attacking them and bombing their home?  NO.

I did say this - "It's more about a corporation with a private army (it's like Haliburton
and Blackwater) trying to move aside spiritualistic, nativist animists
to get at precious natural resources. Giovanni Ribisi's corporate man
was insensitive and indifferent, the Colonel played by Stephen Lang was
your stereotypical "murderous military psychopath" often added to such
films" - which you cut out to just focus on one statement out of context.  And I also said this - "I'm all for narratives that paint private contractors (*cough*
mercenaries) in a bad light, and any company that is willing to kill
people for a profit" - which you also cut to just focus on my one point about the aliens being selfish, and they were being selfish.  That doesn't make them wrong.

I think they could have been negotiated away from their tree in a way that would not have irreprebably harmed the eco-system.  I think for how much that ore was worth that the corporation would have bent over backwards to create ecological safeguards - honestly, for this kind of story, the most original part was how hard the company REALLY DID try to do things peacefully for exchange.

My problem with not enjoying the movie that much (it was fun to watch once) is that the story has been done many, many times before - and it has been done much better.  Maybe not with better special effects, and maybe this had some of the better action sequences for such a story, but Cameron has made far better films, films with much better stories and characters, AND this story has been done much better before.

[Endurium]

MerinTB wrote...

Endurium wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
...the goal of the corporation wanting those resources was no more selfish than the people wanting to keep their tree (if they were truly spirutalist and one with the land shouldn't they also have the "no one owns the land" beliefs, too?)

The corporations ruined Earth (killed Gaia according to Jake) and were looking for other planets to exploit solely for profit. They would stop at nothing to exploit Pandora, even if it meant killing/subjugating all Na'vi. Blatant selfishness and greed, not to mention a total disrespect for life.

The Na'vi are children of Eywa who treasure all they receive from her, including Treehome. There is nothing selfish about them trying to defend their home.

Your comments indicate you seem to have completely missed the whole point of Eywa and the Na'vi relationship with her, as well as Jake's plea to her (I missed that the first time because of a restroom visit).

I am positive the corporation would have left the tree standing or moved the tree or planted thousands of trees to replace Treehome if the aliens had agreed to move.

Yes, just like they did on Earth (Jake tells Eywa there is no "green" left on the planet). I sincerely doubt they'd respect Pandora's eco-system in the long run. They already have an ecosystem-damaging strip mine going on near their base, which you can see near the start of the movie, and their equipment is anything but eco-friendly.

Was the corporation right for attacking them and bombing their home?  NO.

At least we agree on this.

I did say this... - "It's more about a corporation with a private army (it's like Haliburton and Blackwater) trying to move aside spiritualistic, nativist animists to get at precious natural resources. Giovanni Ribisi's corporate man
was insensitive and indifferent, the Colonel played by Stephen Lang was your stereotypical "murderous military psychopath" often added to such films" - which you cut out to just focus on one statement out of context.  And I also said this - "I'm all for narratives that paint private contractors (*cough* mercenaries) in a bad light, and any company that is willing to kill people for a profit" - which you also cut to just focus on my one point about the aliens being selfish, and they were being selfish.  That doesn't make them wrong.

You say I took it out of context (not my intent), then you repeat the point I quoted as if it was not out of context. I disagreed with your equating of Na'vi selfishness with Corporate selfishness. As far as I'm concerned, the Na'vi are not being selfish in defending their home from invaders from another world - invaders which have already raped their own world. Perhaps we disagree on the matter of selfishness (I view selfishness as bad/wrong, not good/right).

I think they could have been negotiated away from their tree in a way that would not have irreprebably harmed the eco-system.  I think for how much that ore was worth that the corporation would have bent over backwards to create ecological safeguards - honestly, for this kind of story, the most original part was how hard the company REALLY DID try to do things peacefully for exchange.

I'll give the corporation a C for effort. They may try various things, but they have no intention of leaving and they wanted what was under Treehome (to start with), so ultimately the Na'vi would lose. Again, what happened on Earth will repeat on Pandora unless it is stopped. I'm glad it was stopped, at least in the conclusion of this first movie. Your suggestion would lead to the same situation Native Americans of the USA are in today - relegated to reservations while their ancestral land is occupied by other peoples. At least until Eywa was killed - after that I'm not sure if the Na'vi could survive.

My problem with not enjoying the movie that much (it was fun to watch once) is that the story has been done many, many times before - and it has been done much better.  Maybe not with better special effects, and maybe this had some of the better action sequences for such a story, but Cameron has made far better films, films with much better stories and characters, AND this story has been done much better before.

That's understandable. Maybe the sequel will satisfy you if James actually improves on this first movie.

[Karthak Maz Urzak]

One part of Avatar actually reminded me of Dragon age. It's when Jake becomes Toruk Macto, the Na'vi version of Paragons.

[Brass_Buckles]

Karthak Maz Urzak wrote...

One part of Avatar actually reminded me of Dragon age. It's when Jake becomes Toruk Macto, the Na'vi version of Paragons.

You mean you didn't think he should be slaying that high dra--er, toruk?  Kidding, of course.

[harrykim306]

I thought that Avatar was a very intellengent movie and well written, I found that the americans vs the aliens parralled the atrosaties the americans commited agaist the indians.



Even the aliens were very indianesque in there religion/beliefs and the way they lived.

[AshedMan]

The real story of Americans invading Pandora would have been much different. Our diseases would have wiped out the Navi.

[Elhanan]

As I await for this 3 hr piece of Eye Candy to go to DVD, I dug in my collection and watched The Abyss again. And after reading some of the trivia of this older film, I wonder why anyone works for Cameron at all, except for the CGI folks.

[the_one_54321]

i honestly pity people who feel compelled to over analyze movies they go to see. such people are certain to ruin for themselves what was mostly likely the best movie experience since Dark Knight.



this was a James Camaron movie, and as such it was cliche and predictable. but if you know that is what you're going to get (and you really should going into a James Camaron movie) you've little (i would argue really nothing) to criticize in Avatar. first and foremost, it is likely visually the most beautiful and believable movie ever made. also the music was spot on in almost every instance, with rises and falls where they needed to be for emotional effect. and the story, while very much cliche predictable and "dances with smirfs," was still powerful, well paced, and very well acted.



as a specific note "10 minute sex scene" is completely inaccurate. that scene was absolutely necessary for the emotional development of those characters. also the "sex" (if there even really was any in that scene) was 30 seconds of the scene at most.

[the_one_54321]

also, in relation to the long winded discussion above, it is similar to land and water rights. the specific terms are riparian and prior appropriation. the Na'vi have ownership of whats under their tree. if they arent willing to trade, move or sell, then the corporation is SOL. what the corporate manager did would be regarded as illegal, unethical, and murder to boot.

[Dennis Carpenter]

harrykim306 wrote...

I thought that Avatar was a very intellengent movie and well written, I found that the americans vs the aliens parralled the atrosaties the americans commited agaist the indians.

Even the aliens were very indianesque in there religion/beliefs and the way they lived.

I find this comment the most interesting of all as it seems ther is always someone who blames americans for everything whether in history or in these days. If you look back on history you will find the AMERICANS are nothing more then resettled Europeans who's own history is one of nothing but war and conquest and slavery. Which is also the way of the Indian who had there tribal wars and territorial wars and often if not taking the remaining defeated tribe or village as slaves then they were often Eliminated. (tribal cleansing)..........So how about we leave the obvious political, and ecological bashing of Corporate america out of the topic and just rely on the quality of the movie.

Just my Opinion BTW

[the_one_54321]

Dennis Carpenter wrote...
Just my Opinion BTW

those are fair considerations, but consider it a matter of "here first." the notion of "someone is sitting on something you want, so you make them your enemy and then take it from them" is pretty accurate. but the person who was there first had the original right to it. the person who takes it is just a subtle (or not so subtle) type of theif.

[Dennis Carpenter]

@the_one_54321 Thank you for your intelligent response and I agree that it is nothing different then stealing............But throught history this is one of the reasons wars are fought. Population outgrows its borders and infringes on neighboring lands............WAR. Sad fact but until greed is removed from the world we will never exist without war.

[fairandbalancedfan]

It would be nice if the exploitative corporate forces win just like in real life. Mercenaries kick Na'avi butt and they are forced to leave put in camps and Humanity triumphs.

[Endurium]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

It would be nice if the exploitative corporate forces win just like in real life. Mercenaries kick Na'avi butt and they are forced to leave put in camps and Humanity triumphs.

Assuming that wasn't sarcasm (I suck at detecting it), how uninteresting, since that's what goes on every day here at home. It was refreshing to see the natives win for a change (although it took intervention from Eywa). That may change in sequels should Cameron be able to produce them. Personally I'm rather sick of human mismanagement and ruination of our home world. After watching Avatar twice I was ready to go live with the Na'vi like Jake did. Ah well, all I can do is recycle, avoid excessive driving, and do my part to keep my little piece of the planet clean and orderly.

I'm considering a 3D show tomorrow since I have additional time off for the holidays (woot!). Now that I have the story well in mind, I can focus on the differences between 2D and 3D.

[Elhanan]

I tire of all the Man vs Nature film media events that appear these past years. All this was better presented by the tear of a single American Indian on a PSA many years ago.



While I agree that I should avoid littering and act responsibly as another steward of this planet, I also note that flood, hurricane, tsunami, volcano, earthquake, etc are not caused by me or anyone I know. And these seem to do far worse damage.



As for films, I wish I could see Blind Side instead before it leaves town.

[the_one_54321]

if you enjoyed it but havent seen it in 3D then you really need to see it in 3D. the visuals are absolutely amazing. also, sit up close. it actually looks better that way, when the screen is projecting 3D and covering your entire field of vision. makes you feel like you are right there, inside the shot. cannot say enough how amazing the visuals in this movie are.

[Karthak Maz Urzak]

AshedMan wrote...

The real story of Americans invading Pandora would have been much different. Our diseases would have wiped out the Navi.

Really doubt that. Humans are more closely related to slugs than we would be to Na'vi, so there's no reason why our diseases would jump species and affect them.

[Burdokva]

Just returned from a screening a few hours ago, and I wish I had the money to watch it again (and I am going to another screening next week).



Admittedly, the story is a bit cliche, but it is a well-written movie that at the very least tries to present a deeper story and background to the struggle of nature vs technology, that doesn't treat the viewer as a complete idiot (exactly how I felt while watching Surrogates).



I'm a great fan of James Cameron and "Avatar" was pretty much what I expected - good story, great acting, solid directing and amazing special effect. In my ranking it comes second only after "T2:Judgement Day", and on par with "The Abyss".



Honestly, it's a masterpiece - not because of an incredibly novel story or concepts, but it is an incredibly slick and solid visual/audio experience. It just sets the bar incredibly high for future 3D movies. I for one am going to be much more critical of special effects and 3D in the future.



As for the soundtrack, it is subtle, as already mentioned. Personally, I find it one of the best scores from James Horner in many years. Not overly bombastic and loud, with a strong main theme and otherwise filler tracks. It felt strong overall and fit the movie in an excellent fashion.



Definitely one of the most memorable sci-fi flicks of the decade.

[fairandbalancedfan]

Endurium wrote...
I'm considering a 3D show tomorrow since I have additional time off for the holidays (woot!). Now that I have the story well in mind, I can focus on the differences between 2D and 3D.

Wel that's the thing, you go to movies to get away from reality. Because in real life we know those mercs, corporations would just grab everything the Na'avi has.