55 réponses à ce sujet

[fairandbalancedfan]

http://www.destructo...n--155782.phtml

"The fall of the JRPG in large part is due to a lack of evolution, a
lack of progression," Zeschuk said. "They kept delivering the same
thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier,
but it's still the same experience.

Foolish Greg, all Japanese entertainment medium lacks evolution

"My favorite thing, it's funny when you still see it, but the joke of
some of the dialogue systems where it asks, 'do you wanna do this or
this,' and you say no. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. 'Do you
wanna do this or this?' No. Lemme think -- you want me to say 'yes.'
And that, unfortunately, really characterized the JRPG."

I thought male protagonists who spent half a day on their hair with teen angst issues and the fact that you can't tell apart from the males and females characterised JRPG's.

[Monstruo696]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

http://www.destructo...n--155782.phtml

"The fall of the JRPG in large part is due to a lack of evolution, a
lack of progression," Zeschuk said. "They kept delivering the same
thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier,
but it's still the same experience.

Foolish Greg, all Japanese entertainment medium lacks evolution

"My favorite thing, it's funny when you still see it, but the joke of
some of the dialogue systems where it asks, 'do you wanna do this or
this,' and you say no. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. 'Do you
wanna do this or this?' No. Lemme think -- you want me to say 'yes.'
And that, unfortunately, really characterized the JRPG."

I thought male protagonists who spent half a day on their hair with teen angst issues and the fact that you can't tell apart from the males and females characterised JRPG's.

JRPGs?

Is this some shady invention from Japanland?

[Skellimancer]

"The fall of the JRPG in large part is due to a lack of evolution, a
lack of progression," Zeschuk said. "They kept delivering the same
thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier,
but it's still the same experience.

Much like Bioware games, no?

[andybuiadh]

JRPG's are still popular as the target demographic will lap them up as quick as they can. It's "cool" nowadays to be Japanese, as such you see generic same old-same old games being thrown out and becoming successfull.

[Arbiter Libera]

Well, it's true.

I mean, look at JRPGs in the '90s (late or early, doesn't matter) and then compare them to modern titles of the same genres. Only difference I see, in 99% of them, are obvious technological improvements (better graphics, voice acting, etc) and greater anime/manga/"Asian fashion" influence in their style, although this is probably also related to technological progress since it allows them to present characters in greater detail (I dare you to say that FF6 sprites lacked personality, I double dare you). Basically, JRPG genre has been stagnant up to today and I hope it'll change soon enough.

Modifié par Arbiter Libera, 21 décembre 2009 - 09:21 .

[Skellimancer]

Arbiter Libera wrote...

Well, it's true.

I mean, look at JRPGs in the '90s (late or early, doesn't matter) and then compare them to modern titles of the same genres. Only difference I see, in 99% of them, are obvious technological improvements (better graphics, voice acting, etc) and greater anime/manga/"Asian fashion" influence in their style, although this is probably also related to technological progress since it allows them to present characters in greater detail (I dare you to say that FF6 sprites lacked personality, I double dare you). Basically, JRPG genre has been stagnant up to today and I hope it'll change soon enough.

It will only change when the japanese kids stop liking men who look like girls.

[andybuiadh]

Skellimancer wrote...

Arbiter Libera wrote...

Well, it's true.

I mean, look at JRPGs in the '90s (late or early, doesn't matter) and then compare them to modern titles of the same genres. Only difference I see, in 99% of them, are obvious technological improvements (better graphics, voice acting, etc) and greater anime/manga/"Asian fashion" influence in their style, although this is probably also related to technological progress since it allows them to present characters in greater detail (I dare you to say that FF6 sprites lacked personality, I double dare you). Basically, JRPG genre has been stagnant up to today and I hope it'll change soon enough.

It will only change when the japanese kids stop liking men who look like girls.

Not gonna happen. Let's be honest.

[Monstruo696]

Skellimancer wrote...

"The fall of the JRPG in large part is due to a lack of evolution, a
lack of progression," Zeschuk said. "They kept delivering the same
thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier,
but it's still the same experience.

Much like Bioware games, no?

Tell me Baldur's Gate, KOTOR, DA:O, and Mass Effect have anything in common.

Go on.

[Jonp382]

I agree with Monstruo. Playing Baldur's Gate is quite a bit different from playing KotOR, which is still noticeably different from playing DA:O. IMO, DA:O makes some very nice steps forward with both games, even if I thought KotOR was a better game overall than DA:O.

[Skellimancer]

Monstruo696 wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

"The fall of the JRPG in large part is due to a lack of evolution, a
lack of progression," Zeschuk said. "They kept delivering the same
thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier,
but it's still the same experience.

Much like Bioware games, no?

Tell me Baldur's Gate, KOTOR, DA:O, and Mass Effect have anything in common.

Go on.

How about you tell me how the games have progressed for better?

[Monstruo696]

Skellimancer wrote...


How about you tell me how the games have progressed for better?

Oh please, get the **** out.

[Skellimancer]

Monstruo696 wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...


How about you tell me how the games have progressed for better?

Oh please, get the **** out.

No.

[Monstruo696]

Skellimancer wrote...


No.

How has gaming in general progressed for the better?

Tell me what modern game is better than an older game.

Go on, I dare you.

[Skellimancer]

Monstruo696 wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...


No.

How has gaming in general progressed for the better?

Tell me what modern game is better than an older game.

Go on, I dare you.

Erm, none? i don't like modern games, much.

[Arbiter Libera]

Guys, it's not about individual games (which, when it comes to BioWare at least, ARE very similar to one another and are pretty formulaic), but the genre itself.



When you compare WRPGs and JRPGs (I know, just making up terms here to ease the explanation process) in general you can easily see that WRPGs are INSANELY more varied (from very traditional RPGs like DA:O up to titles like Elder Scrolls games... and everything in between) while JRPGs are pretty much the same, except some minor differences between JRPG games (I don't know, like Dragon Quest with it's semi-1st person perspective in battles which is different usual representation). If anything else, WRPGs are marked by even more varied hybrid games that use RPG elements to great extent (Borderlands, for example).

[Monstruo696]

Skellimancer wrote...

Erm, none? i don't like modern games, much.

You are here, because...?

[Skellimancer]

Monstruo696 wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Erm, none? i don't like modern games, much.

You are here, because...?

Because i bought the game. Need help with more obvious answers?

[Monstruo696]

Skellimancer wrote...

Monstruo696 wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Erm, none? i don't like modern games, much.

You are here, because...?

Because i bought the game. Need help with more obvious answers?

Am I getting trolled?

I'm getting trolled, aren't I?

I hope I'm getting trolled.

[Fleapants]

*shrugs*

I dunno. Which part of DA:O apart from the graphics engine would you call an improvement over BG?

Both are "save the world"-style rpgs with dialogue trees.

DA got more polish and fluff, but has it truly evolutionized?

I do like both games very much, but I can't see the big difference beneath the shiny stuff.

[Seagloom]

I had this same discussion with a friend not long ago. JRPGs have been stagnant for years. If anything, they are worse now with modern graphics.

This is hardly a monumental surprise though. Gaming as a whole is a stagnant hobby. How many games truly innovate? Such titles come out every few years. Usually there is one or two for every console generation, if that. BioWare is no better about this than most developers out there. Baldur's Gate introduced the concept of realtime combat with pause prevalent in all of BioWare's games since. Any variations to this model since have been minor at best.

The Old Republic may bring something new to the MMO genre, I suppose, but that remains to be seen. BioWare's storytelling approach has always been somewhat formulaic as well. It *was* fresh early on, but it is hardly original at this point. They have innovated in minor ways from game to game by gradually refining their writing approach and including gay romances, but at their core these stories are similar.

As far as actual gameplay is concerned, I cannot think of anything beyond the above mentioned realtime with pause feature. As a genre comparison, I agree with Arbiter Libera. However, I also see what Skellimancer is trying to say and agree with that too.

Modifié par Seagloom, 22 décembre 2009 - 01:00 .

[Skellimancer]

Fanbois are killing the gaming industry, buying the same product each year with nothing new but a label on the box and an occasional new lick of paint, graphics wise.

[Monstruo696]

Skellimancer wrote...

Fanbois are killing the gaming industry, buying the same product each year with nothing new but a label on the box and an occasional new lick of paint, graphics wise.

>Killing Gaming Industry
>Buying Product

I'm pretty sure that buying a product actually feeds the industry, not kill it. 

If you are speaking metaphorically, then maybe you should go tell that to the several million retards that bought MW2.  Talk about an old game with a lick of new paint.

[amat3rasu]

Skellimancer wrote...

Fanbois are killing the gaming industry, buying the same product each year with nothing new but a label on the box and an occasional new lick of paint, graphics wise.

Wow..what an inane comment. Seems like you are in this thread for the sole purpose of bashing/trolling others. Good job! 'Fanbois' killing the gaming industry lol..  look higher up in the food chain kiddo. Who feeds the 'fanbois'?
-------
Anyway, regarding topic. I quite agree that few JRPG's have undergone evolution. It's mostly the same formula, tweaked a bit but it delivers right? I play the Final Fantasy games coz the battles are fun and stories are cool. But the biggest letdown is characters. If you've played a few JRPG's, then youd know that characters are built so strikingly similarly to those in some other games. eg: the creators of ffxiii wanted a female version of Cloud Strife and thus Lightning was created. Why can't they create something totally new devoid of  old character influences? And enough with the bloody gunblades//another recycled item.

Modifié par amat3rasu, 22 décembre 2009 - 02:51 .

[ChickenDownUnder]

Oh hell, how to begin....

To get it out of the way, I greatly enjoy both Western RPGs and JRPGs, both type of games could learn a great deal from each other. And I know I am going to be pelted with onions for saying this, but I'm going to have to politely disagree with Dr. Zeschuk.

The whole game industry is slowly growing stagnent. Just look at all the games which are being released that are mostly sequels of one another. Publishers are more willing to endorse "safe" games (sequels) than they are a brand new idea... and in the end, can you really blame them? They give companies money and resources in the hopes of getting a hefty return reward. If the buyers come to like something, it is natural that they want more of it.

"Choice" in games, no matter what kind of RPG it is, always boils down to being led down a pre-described path. It's the illusion of choice that is most important. Bioware has never been immune to writing dialogue choices that no matter what you pick lead to the same outcome. Skelli is right on the mark about that.

The reason why JRPGs are not doing so well in America can just as easily be because JRPGs are aimed for Japanese game players. Over in Japan, very few Western games become extremely popular. Xbox does horribly in Japan.  JRPGs are all about telling a fantastical story, gritty "realism" need not always apply, the journey the player takes in the game is more important than how you arrive there. Western RPGs are the illusion of choice and creating your own avatar to place in a fantasy world; it's all about the reward and how things end.  It's a matter of perspective.

And now this Chicken steps off of his soapbox.

[Skellimancer]

Monstruo696 wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Fanbois are killing the gaming industry, buying the same product each year with nothing new but a label on the box and an occasional new lick of paint, graphics wise.

>Killing Gaming Industry
>Buying Product

I'm pretty sure that buying a product actually feeds the industry, not kill it. 

If you are speaking metaphorically, then maybe you should go tell that to the several million retards that bought MW2.  Talk about an old game with a lick of new paint.

Because buying the same copy/pasted crap with a new number at the end, really helps evolve games for the better.

Take a look at FIFA.