154 réponses à ce sujet

[T0paze]

Sorry, that was Grand Master, not Great Magister - the Magister was another character.
And Azar Javed was a mage too.
Anyway, that was about gender balance in the population of mages in the Witcher.

Modifié par T0paze, 21 décembre 2009 - 10:26 .

[SeanMurphy2]

I saw her in the Ostager trailer a year ago and hoped Cauthrien would have a big role. Her scene with Loghain at Ostager was great. I was disappointed we did not get to see her again till near the end of the game.

The tension in her relationship with Loghain would have been interesting in the mid game. Or she could have been a point of contact in Denerim who you could talk to. And her opinions of Loghain gradually change during the game.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 21 décembre 2009 - 10:29 .

[Kyogen]

The Angry One wrote...

As for the Witcher.. well those eastern european stories just love their big burly men in the lead roles, so in those stories magic is generally delegated to the women.. along with stocking up the brothels and cleaning the kitchen.. yeah I have issues with the so-called masterpieces coming out of Europe's eastern side and god forbid, Russia.. *shakes fist*

There are some issues with sexism, yes, but in The Witcher saga specifically, this is treated as a social problem similar to racism--it's a dark world, and these are dark elements of it. Furthermore, the title character is constantly being bailed out of his worst problems by women, and they don't all have their eye on his trousers.

Back to DA:O, I would be very curious to see the epilogue after saving Ferelden with Branka, Ser Cauthrien, Morrigan, and maybe Eleanor (Mum from the Human Noble origin) in the party.

[T0paze]

Hmm, I didn't get the feeling that the Witcher suffered from racism or sexism in its attitudes towards mages. Racism is out of question. Sexism... well, only if you mean inverted sexism, where females tried to dominate magic affairs. As I said, ones of the most powerful mages were still men, but the sheer number of female mages was far greater and they ultimately decided to form a Circle consisting only of female mages, joining forces to influence kings and governments. In the end, or, to be more precise, the epilogue, they failed miserably (some were even tortured before execution), losing their battle with the church, but I wouldn't take that as an indication of sexism.

Modifié par T0paze, 21 décembre 2009 - 10:39 .

[SusanStoHelit]

I didn't expect more of Cauthrien, it's just if you read your journal entries she's described in gleaming terms. Noble-minded peasant lass, springing to the aid of a defenseless and outnumbered man...



Seems not to fit with her actions as a character.

[Taleroth]

I expect nothing of people with chargen heads.

I'm talking to you, Irving.

Modifié par Taleroth, 21 décembre 2009 - 10:41 .

[SusanStoHelit]

T0paze wrote...
I didn't get the feeling that the Witcher suffered from racism

Umm, pogroms against dwarves and elves, genocide? Not racism against humans with a different skin colour, but racism nonetheless.

[T0paze]

Your quote is incomplete. I said that I didn't get the feeling that the Witcher suffered from racism or sexism in its attitudes towards mages. I was talking about gender balance in the population of mages. As for racism, there are lots of elven mages and one or two are even members of that Circle I mentioned.

Modifié par T0paze, 21 décembre 2009 - 10:49 .

[keesio74]

Cauthrien owes everything to Loghain. She is fiercely loyal to him. I understand that.



I was very pleased to see that I was able to reason with her entering the Landsmeet and made her back down and admit Loghain has lost it. They way she went on one knee and begged you to show mercy showed how torn she was on supporting Loghain and realizing he's gone mad.

[SusanStoHelit]

T0paze wrote...

Your quote is incomplete. I said that I didn't get the feeling that the Witcher suffered from racism or sexism in its attitudes towards mages. I was talking about gender balance in the population of mages. As for racism, there are lots of elven mages and one or two are even members of that Circle was mentioned.

In that case, I apologise:crying:, sorry, but I've been two days without sleep and misread.

[Gilded Age]

T0paze wrote...
 
As I said, ones of the most powerful mages were still men, but the sheer number of female mages was far greater and they ultimately decided to form a Circle consisting only of female mages, joining forces to influence kings and governments. In the end, or, to be more precise, the epilogue, they failed miserably (some were even tortured before execution), losing their battle with the church, but I wouldn't take that as an indication of sexism.

So, the story is...even though males are rarer, they are the most powerful/most worthy in this magical organization and the females who step out of line and try to gain some personal power and/or dominance for themselves are then horribly tortured and executed by the ruling patriarchy.

Admittedly, I've never played The Witcher, but based on your little snippet...  That situation sounds kind of crappy, I have to admit.

As for Ser Cauthrien...  I like the idea of her - a warrior woman.  But she was just awful in execution - blindly following Loghain, making excuses for his idiotic, paranoid ideas...  Ugh.

Modifié par Gilded Age, 21 décembre 2009 - 11:04 .

[T0paze]

Gilded Age wrote...

T0paze wrote...
 
As I said, ones of the most powerful mages were still men, but the sheer number of female mages was far greater and they ultimately decided to form a Circle consisting only of female mages, joining forces to influence kings and governments. In the end, or, to be more precise, the epilogue, they failed miserably (some were even tortured before execution), losing their battle with the church, but I wouldn't take that as an indication of sexism.

So, the story is...even though males are rarer, they are the most powerful/most worthy in this magical organization and the females who step out of line and try to gain some personal power and/or dominance for themselves are then horribly tortured and executed by the ruling patriarchy.

Admittedly, I've never played The Witcher, but based on your little snippet...  That situation sounds kind of crappy, I have to admit.

No, I think that would be an exaggeration. There are many powerful female mages, too. However, among the highest ranked mages the imbalance is not felt as strongly as among your average mages (who are mostly females, because in most cases only girls are taught magic). And the higher the ranks, the lesser the imbalance. For example, Vilgefortz in the books, or the Grand Master and Azar Javed in the game are ones of the greatest mages in the world of the Witcher, probably even the most powerful ones, especially the Grand Master, since he is a  so-called Source.

About that failure  - no, you misunderstood me. Basically, a group of female mages decided to form a lodge (I think that's how their circle was called) acting as a secret government, influencing the decisions of kings etc. They specifically decided that no male mages would be allowed into that lodge. It was only in the end that they failed. And they weren't defeated by male mages (as far as I understand no such conflict ever took place), they were defeated by the Church. As for whether the Church is essentialy patriarchal or not, I'm not quite sure about that, but I'm certain there were also female priests.

Modifié par T0paze, 21 décembre 2009 - 11:38 .

[Kyogen]

T0paze wrote...

Hmm, I didn't get the feeling that the Witcher suffered from racism or sexism in its attitudes towards mages. Racism is out of question. Sexism... well, only if you mean inverted sexism, where females tried to dominate magic affairs. As I said, ones of the most powerful mages were still men, but the sheer number of female mages was far greater and they ultimately decided to form a Circle consisting only of female mages, joining forces to influence kings and governments. In the end, or, to be more precise, the epilogue, they failed miserably (some were even tortured before execution), losing their battle with the church, but I wouldn't take that as an indication of sexism.

Sorry, I failed to be clear. I mean that sexism and racism exist in the
world of The Witcher, and both the author and the game devs use such
themes as tools to illustrate the ambivalence of that particular
fantasy universe, though I never had the impression that it's as bleak
for women as The Angry One seems to think.

Back to DA:O--I think
Ser Cauthrien and Lady Isolde could take on the Blight themselves. The
first provides all the muscle you need to kill an Archdemon, and the
second has her battlecry down pat: Teeeeaaaaagaaannnn! (Seriously though, I appreciated the option to persuade Ser Cauthrien to her higher duty at the Landsmeet, but it would have been nicer if it had been something more than two lines of dialogue. I would have liked to have seen her during the battle of Denerim.)

[catofnine]

keesio74 wrote...

Cauthrien owes everything to Loghain. She is fiercely loyal to him. I understand that.

I was very pleased to see that I was able to reason with her entering the Landsmeet and made her back down and admit Loghain has lost it. They way she went on one knee and begged you to show mercy showed how torn she was on supporting Loghain and realizing he's gone mad.

My first impression upon fighting her at Howe's estate was that Duncan dropped the ball in recruitment.  *I'm* the one tasked with fighting the blight and yet here's this fiercely resolved woman kicking the everloving crap out of me??  Pfft.  Make her a warden and have her fight the damn blight...plot device boss and all.    Duncan seriously punched his ticket for a ride on the failboat on that one.  

I would have made her a warden, not only as a colossal F-U to Loghain, but also because she would have tore any battlefield up.  I had spared her hoping to have her at the final battle.  I was very disappointed that she wasn't. 

[Vicious]

Eh I'd want here solely for the fact that she breaks the fantasy archetype squad your party is made up of. The girls are mages and rogues, the boys are big burly warriors, the elf is a pretty assassin...
Same reason I want Jowan. Mix it up damnit!

THANK YOU.


Anyway... Ser Cauthrien really loves Loghain. imho of course.

[Gilded Age]

T0paze wrote...

About that failure  - no, you misunderstood me. Basically, a group of female mages decided to form a lodge (I think that's how their circle was called) acting as a secret government, influencing the decisions of kings etc. They specifically decided that no male mages would be allowed into that lodge. It was only in the end that they failed. And they weren't defeated by male mages (as far as I understand no such conflict ever took place), they were defeated by the Church. As for whether the Church is essentialy patriarchal or not, I'm not quite sure about that, but I'm certain there were also female priests.

Ah, I see.  Well, I have to say, I'm glad there's a little more to the story than your original post suggested.    Thanks for explaining it.  I'm still a little apprehensive about the Witcher, though - issues of possible sexism aside.  Geralt just looks like a heavily-armed, humaniod version of Gollum to me.  

[SeanMurphy2]

verrall20 wrote...

I was expecting so much more from her as a character rather than some optinal boss. I was hoping for her to be a hidden companion or at least a very importent npc which bioware rather falsly said she would. maybe a civil war dlc or any dlc may change this.

Looking back I think the Bioware devs were trying to downplay people's expectations of Cauthrien. I never sensed they had the same enthusiasm as us when talking about her.

Technically she does have an important role in the story by arresting you and preventing entry into the Landsmeet.

But I think they could have done more with Cauthrien. She could give you a different perspective on Loghain. She could tell you old war stories and why she admires him. Also her relationship with Loghain would have been interesting.

Also I wonder if the devs were serious about her "liking long walks on the beach".

[sandboxgod]

I don't understand why anyone would not want to kill Cauthrien? She drops 'The Summer Sword', which is a wicked 2h sword with nice stats. I never paid attention to her in the trailers or anything so she was just another boss with good loot for me

[Herr Uhl]

sandboxgod wrote...

I don't understand why anyone would not want to kill Cauthrien? She drops 'The Summer Sword', which is a wicked 2h sword with nice stats. I never paid attention to her in the trailers or anything so she was just another boss with good loot for me

Maybe because they did not powergame? 

Instead they may have thought: Let's avoid unnecessary killing.

[sandboxgod]

Herr Uhl wrote...

sandboxgod wrote...

I don't understand why anyone would not want to kill Cauthrien? She drops 'The Summer Sword', which is a wicked 2h sword with nice stats. I never paid attention to her in the trailers or anything so she was just another boss with good loot for me

Maybe because they did not powergame? 

Instead they may have thought: Let's avoid unnecessary killing.

I did not even know there was an option to spare her til I read this thread. I'd probably still always opt to kill her for the sword though.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Herr Uhl wrote...

sandboxgod wrote...

I don't understand why anyone would not want to kill Cauthrien? She drops 'The Summer Sword', which is a wicked 2h sword with nice stats. I never paid attention to her in the trailers or anything so she was just another boss with good loot for me

Maybe because they did not powergame? 

Instead they may have thought: Let's avoid unnecessary killing.

Indeed.

With regard the whole landsmeet change of shift, personally I think this persuasion option should only come up if you chose the proper "surrender" option at the estate ie. the one which doesn't have you fighting her or bringing anora into it. It would make more sense if it was just after that because in that instance she states how she was surprised that the warden surrendered without a fight and the way the actress says it, really gives a "Hmm, maybe I should re-evaluate whose side I am on?" kind of tone to it. So of course you then get the persuasion option at the landsmeet and she is all apologetic and just hoping you can show mercy to the person whom she had admired a great deal until things started going south at Ostagar.

I have to admit I was a bit disappointed, really hoped there would be some sort of option to bring her into the party, specially after the aforementioned event. As I've said on another topic about her today though, one issue is that of course she is another 2H wielding warrior, which would have brought the tally up to all 3 of the standard 'non-golem/wardog' warriors as being so.

One option of course would be that if human noble, you could always recruit her to take over Ser Gilmore's departed role at the Cousland estate but also have her as a romance option.

Another good reason for having her as a party member, it brings female party members up to 3 (or 4 if include Shale)

Actually now I think about it, they could have easily implemented the 'persuade' option at Howe's estate and have her join the party there, telling her men to stand down. But I guess the potential double-cross by Anora at that point makes more sense.

[sandboxgod]

Now to think of it, I read if you beat her when she first confronts you when helping Anora escape, you'll also unlock an achievement.



I cant see why someone would trouble themselves to spare such a minor character. She's not even mentioned in the recap / summary after the game is done. Compared to the major decisions you have to make in regards to Elven slavery and such, she's a really tiny character



Perhaps they had more grand plans for her originally but it was never implemented

[Herr Uhl]

sandboxgod wrote...
I cant see why someone would trouble themselves to spare such a minor character. She's not even mentioned in the recap / summary after the game is done. Compared to the major decisions you have to make in regards to Elven slavery and such, she's a really tiny character.

Yes, we should kill everybody whom is a minor character. See you in hell, refugee #4!

[Mnemnosyne]

I am dissapointed in her dialogue at the landsmeet. There's like three good, convincing arguments you can use to sway her, and a Persuade option. The persuade option goes away if you try to convince her through real points and such. So basically, in order to actually get her to back down, you need to forget making actual points and supporting them, just use your Jedi Mind Powers to make her flip positions instantly.

The conversation would have been much better if, only after using some of the rational arguments would the Persuade option come up. It would then feel much, much less forced and a lot less like you just use Jedi Mind Powers on her.

[arrrasdgaehjskmszkm]

The Angry One wrote...

T0paze wrote...

I'm talking about *your party* in particular, not the PC or NPCs in general.
As for the Witcher.. well those eastern european stories just love their big burly men in the lead roles, so in those stories magic is generally delegated to the women.. along with stocking up the brothels and cleaning the kitchen.. yeah I have issues with the so-called masterpieces coming out of Europe's eastern side and god forbid, Russia.. *shakes fist*

Come to think of it, ones of the most powerful mages in the Witcher series were still men. it was just that on the average there were much more female mages than male mages in that world. Vilgefortz, for example - the main villain in the books and an incredibly powerful mage. Or even the Great Magister  - the main antagonist in the game - he was a mage too.

Well of course, you can't have mighty, manly Geralt face off against a woman as his ultimate foe! That'd offend the sensibilities of everyone over at Chernobyl.

   

WITCHER SERIES SPOILER AHEAD!




  Come on, in The Wicher series there is a huge amount of warrior women: Ciri (above all) , the girl of the snowhite history, the bard, half of the outlaw party, even the countess that make Geralt a cavalier.  there is also female monsters, even ( in several short-histories).
  And as stated before, there is plenty of male mages in the game, even some male sissies. I didn´t have more experience in more eastern-europe books except classics, but in this case there is no reason to state this.