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[Spectre 117]

LostScout wrote...

Cutting off her head doesn't work. My Dalish Ranger left her headless corpse before the Landsmeet, but I saw her standing at my funeral later. One's spirit can't rest easy knowing your enemies can come back from the dead but you cannot.

Lol that was right i killed her in the landsmeet then at my funeral i saw her and it was holy s**t she came back from dead but i cant?Also i saw that m guy was breathing but im not sure maybe im just crazy 

[CBGB]

This is a very thoughtful response,

David Gaider wrote...

My take from this is that perhaps Persuade options should simply be taken out. Persuasion is intended to be abstracted a little, and not every line of reasoning spelled out -- but perhaps that is difficult to understand when you can otherwise say so much? Or perhaps you simply shouldn't get to indulge in long conversations with characters that you can Persuade. One of the two, really. I know the response is that you should have both -- long conversations AND Persuade options that are also long conversations, but that's not going to happen.

Thanks for the feedback.

but perhaps it takes the Thread too much at face value. There's an astounding amount of complaining on this Forum, and not all the things players ask for would really improve gameplay, perhaps not even for those making the request.

I like having the option to Persuade, and I like that sometimes it will fail. If that bothers you and you don't want to lengthen the conversation options, perhaps you could have more options like the ones with Caladrius: you can have some things, but not others. You need to choose which you value most, rather than winning it all with a successful Persuade.

[trueKieran]

Kyogen wrote...
Since you ask, I think Ser Cauthrien has additional narrative potential. I do not fault the game developers for minimizing her in-game role, but she is the sort of conflicted character who could have been written as a larger part with real nuance and depth had there been time and inclination to do so.

She is not portrayed as mindless at Ostagar: she gives and follows orders like a good soldier and responsible leader. She is allowed to show both surprise and anxiety at Loghain's order to withdraw, but she stops short of openly defying him, and there is no indication that she fully realizes that this is a straightforward betrayal of the king instead of a painful but necessary strategic maneuver. Suspicion is not certainty, and it is always a terrible risk to break military chains of command. Much of her dialogue in Denerim shows very clearly that she has had to perform a series of extreme rationalizations in order to live with her choice since Ostagar, but that is one of the more dubious benefits of hindsight. Depending on the PC's choices, she can die for her stubborn refusal to separate personal and institutional loyalties, or she can be persuaded to reject Loghain's actions while still defending Ferelden (his own stated priority).

The writing team has done a good job of using minimal dialogue and very few gestures to leave this minor character open to interpretation and create options for dealing with her. I appreciate that, and I would have been interested in seeing more of her story if the game had been taken in other directions. It was not, and this is not a fault, just a choice.

You're right that there is room for interpretation and my personal one, while it may be wrong, is that you interpret too much into her reaction at Ostagar. She is surprised no doubt, who wouldn't be by such an order, however nothing clearly suggests that she had a real problem with the order, her look when she takes her arm back might aswell (actually most likely in my eyes) be a reaction to Loghain's apparent anger when he takes it.

Also later at the landsmeet, you need to use all that Loghain has done (which she tries to justify) AND persuation/intimidation (which in this situation indeed reminds one of the "jedi mind trick") to get her to step aside, or she will fight you to the death, that's not a character who doubts her commander. Also if she was in such doubt and you confinced her, she could go in there with you and tell the landsmeet what happened and ask them to have mercy on Loghain, instead she just backs down.

Neither at Ostagar nor anywhere after that I can see anything from her that clearly suggests she even allows herself to think about whether anything might be wrong until you talk to her right before the landsmeet. If Loghain had told her to jump off a bridge, she would have.

Modifié par trueKieran, 01 janvier 2010 - 11:23 .

[SeanMurphy2]

I recently discovered basic use of the toolset. I thought Cauthriens character information was interesting. It could give an insight into the writer's initial intention with her character.

Age - 32

Cultural Background - Born to a poor family in Ferelden, she raised in the ranks through hard work and skill.

Speech Pattern - Her commoner origin should be apparent -- she speaks plainly and simply, prefering directness rather than flowery speech or diplomacy. Some people find her blunt, perhaps even excessively so. She only gets fired up when defending Loghain (something she has been doing more and more) or when speaking of the Orlesians -- she has no personal reason to hate the Orlesians, but Loghain does and she has acquired the same dislike from him.

Demeanor - Cauthrien is a fierce warrior and proud of all that she has accomplished. Even more, she is extremely proud that she serves what she sees as Ferelden's greatest hero. Still, she has come to slowly realize that Loghain is taking actions which are of questionable morality -- but she refuses to see them for what they really are and keeps telling herself that they must be for the greater good. She is, in fact, almost blinded by her idealism. When the player meets her, this makes her seem like quite an angry person. She is being commanded to do things she doesn't approve of, and she is determined to convince herself that they are necessary.

Flaws - Pride -- she will realize only too late that her faith in Loghain is misplaced

Morals - Good, but conflicted. She believes in following orders first and in following her own beliefs second.

Personal Background - Poor commoner who has risen to her position, she epitomizes the Ferelden belief that even commoners can rise to importance -- the same was true for Loghain himself, who helped the exile King Maric overthrow the nation's Orlesian overlords and become a noble. Cauthrien has no such ambitions, and is more than willing to be a follower to the man who gave her the chance to become a knight.

Special Skills - Excellent fighter, army commander

Appearance - She is a soldier first: short hair, muscular, most often wearing armor. There is nothing feminine about her, by choice

Archetpye - Proud Idealist

Intelligence - Average

Occupation - Knight, Captain of the Guard in Denerim

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 04 janvier 2010 - 12:55 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

I recently discovered basic use of the toolset. I thought Cauthriens character information was interesting. It could give an insight into the writer's initial intention with her character.

Age - 32

Cultural Background - Born to a poor family in Ferelden, she raised in the ranks through hard work and skill.

Speech Pattern - Her commoner origin should be apparent -- she speaks plainly and simply, prefering directness rather than flowery speech or diplomacy. Some people find her blunt, perhaps even excessively so. She only gets fired up when defending Loghain (something she has been doing more and more) or when speaking of the Orlesians -- she has no personal reason to hate the Orlesians, but Loghain does and she has acquired the same dislike from him.

Demeanor - Cauthrien is a fierce warrior and proud of all that she has accomplished. Even more, she is extremely proud that she serves what she sees as Ferelden's greatest hero. Still, she has come to slowly realize that Loghain is taking actions which are of questionable morality -- but she refuses to see them for what they really are and keeps telling herself that they must be for the greater good. She is, in fact, almost blinded by her idealism. When the player meets her, this makes her seem like quite an angry person. She is being commanded to do things she doesn't approve of, and she is determined to convince herself that they are necessary.

Flaws - Pride -- she will realize only too late that her faith in Loghain is misplaced

Morals - Good, but conflicted. She believes in following orders first and in following her own beliefs second.

Personal Background - Poor commoner who has risen to her position, she epitomizes the Ferelden belief that even commoners can rise to importance -- the same was true for Loghain himself, who helped the exile King Maric overthrow the nation's Orlesian overlords and become a noble. Cauthrien has no such ambitions, and is more than willing to be a follower to the man who gave her the chance to become a knight.

Special Skills - Excellent fighter, army commander

Appearance - She is a soldier first: short hair, muscular, most often wearing armor. There is nothing feminine about her, by choice

Archetpye - Proud Idealist

Intelligence - Average

Occupation - Knight, Captain of the Guard in Denerim

Bolded bit, perfect reason for her being a party member if get Loghain to join up. :happy:

Thanks for posting that info, very nice