37 réponses à ce sujet

[Karlone123]

Bioware will already know this, but Hawke can be a blood mage (gameplay wise) but it been never stated in game which is a bit of a missed opportunity considering blood magic is one of the essential story elements in DA2. I mean they'd be more conflicted arguments with Anders, Fenris, templars and those who are against blood magic. I can only hope they put this in to DA3 seeing as it's a Mage-Templar war.

[MichaelStuart]

Being a blood mage should have at least effected your relationship with your companions.

[Plaintiff]

It was barely in DA:O as it is, so I don't know what you were expecting. It's even more egregious that you can make Wynne a blood mage and this decision is never acknowledged.

Writer's don't decide which specializations will or will not be available, so it's not always easy to accomodate for those choices.

[Ianamus]

I found it a bit surprising actually, as the game was generally very good with having certain dialogue options/banter that only occurred if you made a certain choice or something very specific happened. We can get differing dialogue options from companions throughout the game if we take out sibling into the deep roads and they die or do not make Aveline the guard captain but if we become a blood mage no dialogue changes at all?

I was surprised when I heard it, and I suspect that they may have originally planned to include this but it got scrapped because too many different dialogue scenarios would have to be altered. But then if they aren't willing to give it the reaction it deserves they should have just not included the blood mage specialisation at all in my opinion.

Considering we might get a seeker companion in Dragon Age 3 I seriosuly hope if you can become a blood mage it is commented upon, or else plot holes will certainly abound. 

Modifié par EJ107, 11 août 2012 - 12:34 .

[Plaintiff]

EJ107 wrote...
But then if they aren't willing to give it the reaction it deserves they should have just not included the blood mage specialisation at all.

I'm sure that would've gone over real well.

Nobody notices in any of the games if you specialize in anything other than Blood Magic. Nobody cares that you have Templar powers, or Assassin abilities. Reavers drink the blood of their enemies and apparently everyone is just A-OK with that.

Logically, these are all things that party members should notice, and which should impact your relationship with them. Someone who is against blood magic isn't going to be any happier about borderline cannibalism. Why should Blood Magic be the only sub-class that gets special attention?

[Ianamus]

Plaintiff wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
But then if they aren't willing to give it the reaction it deserves they should have just not included the blood mage specialisation at all.

I'm sure that would've gone over real well.

Nobody notices in any of the games if you specialize in anything other than Blood Magic. Nobody cares that you have Templar powers, or Assassin abilities. Reavers drink the blood of their enemies and apparently everyone is just A-OK with that.

Logically, these are all things that party members should notice, and which should impact your relationship with them. Someone who is against blood magic isn't going to be any happier about borderline cannibalism. Why should Blood Magic be the only sub-class that gets special attention?

Because no other specialisation featured so heavily in the plot (Templar does not count because you are still not a part of the actual templar order) and because your companions are constantly calling Merrill out for being a blood mage even though you can be a blood mage and be standing right there?

Hell, you can even tell Merrill that using blood magic is wrong even though your using it yourself, and she acts as though you are being perfectly rational. No other specialisation caused as many plot holes in the game as this one did. 

Modifié par EJ107, 11 août 2012 - 12:49 .

[wowpwnslol]

Being a mage in DA2 is possibly the biggest plot hole ever introduced into any RPG game.

[deuce985]

Yea, Bioware said we can expect more of this in DA3(likely). I thought it was kinda weird how I used blood magic, had a staff on my back and a blood splatter on my noise. Yet, nobody in Kirkwall noticed it. Perhaps the most naive people I've ever met!



My name is Hawke and I'm a Blood Mage. Anybody notice? Apparently not, so I'll continue practicing my magic and watching bodies implode...

Modifié par deuce985, 11 août 2012 - 01:00 .

[Plaintiff]

EJ107 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
But then if they aren't willing to give it the reaction it deserves they should have just not included the blood mage specialisation at all.

I'm sure that would've gone over real well.

Nobody notices in any of the games if you specialize in anything other than Blood Magic. Nobody cares that you have Templar powers, or Assassin abilities. Reavers drink the blood of their enemies and apparently everyone is just A-OK with that.

Logically, these are all things that party members should notice, and which should impact your relationship with them. Someone who is against blood magic isn't going to be any happier about borderline cannibalism. Why should Blood Magic be the only sub-class that gets special attention?

Because no other specialisation featured so heavily in the plot (Templar does not count because you are still not a part of the actual templar order) and because your companions are constantly calling Merrill out for being a blood mage even though you can be a blood mage and be standing right there?

Hell, you can even tell Merrill that using blood magic is wrong even though your using it yourself, and she acts as though you are being perfectly rational. No other specialisation caused as many plot holes in the game as this one did. 

I could argue that being able to learn Templar abilities without joining the order is a massive plothole in and of itself. I could extend that logic to all of the specializations in DA2. Who teaches Hawke to be an Assassin, or a Spirit Healer or a Berserker? Is the knowledge just lurking in his subconcious?

But whether or not you have the ability to join the Templar Order is moot. Templars are just as important to the plot as Blood Mages are. Hawke's learning of those abilities could and would be interpreted as implicit support of the Templar Order, and Anders would still be pissed off at you for learning abilities that are specifically designed for hunting down and destroying renegade mages.

People noticing that Hawke is a blood mage would just create more plotholes when they refused to acknowledge other specializations that imply similar, socially unacceptable behaviour, such as drinking people's blood. They can either notice everything or nothing.

[Ianamus]

Plaintiff wrote...

I could argue that being able to learn Templar abilities without joining the order is a massive plothole in and of itself. I could extend that logic to all of the specializations in DA2. Who teaches Hawke to be an Assassin, or a Spirit Healer or a Berserker? Is the knowledge just lurking in his subconcious?

But whether or not you have the ability to join the Templar Order is moot. Templars are just as important to the plot as Blood Mages are. Hawke's learning of those abilities could and would be interpreted as implicit support of the Templar Order, and Anders would still be pissed off at you for learning abilities that are specifically designed for hunting down and destroying renegade mages.

People noticing that Hawke is a blood mage would just create more plotholes when they refused to acknowledge other specializations that imply similar, socially unacceptable behaviour, such as drinking people's blood. They can either notice everything or nothing.

Learning templar techniques to shield yourself from harmful magic-users is not supporting the Templar order in any way- especially if Hawke uses them to help mages in the game, and I doubt Anders would care at all. The reaver specialisation may sound grim but unless the actual drinking takes place during combat it would be easier to keep discrete. Blood mages on the other hand are hated and hunted by everyone, as the magic is in and of itself dangerous. Not to mention just how flashy it is. 

Do reavers drink blood during actual battle? Can it not be kept at least partially discrete? Personally I just hated that specialisation as a whole, but I still doubt it's as blant, dangerous and hated as blood magic is. 

People recognising that Hawke is a blood mage would mean less plot holes, and it would not cause plot holes with the other specialisations, because none of them are worthy of as much attention and other than the Reaver none of them are worthy of being mentioned at all. 

Modifié par EJ107, 11 août 2012 - 01:30 .

[Realmzmaster]

As it has been stated before the whole mage plotline is a big plothole, but leaving out the mage class and/or the blood mage specialization would have caused as much or more discontent.

The mage class would require a separate story to get the mage into Kirkwall and keep Mage Hawke from being caught. I would have prefered the separate plotline for Mage Hawke.

In DAO the mage warden can get away with blood magic because it is not forbidden by the wardens just the Chantry. Wynne on the other hand can be made a blood mage and no one cares even though she is totally against blood magic. The reason for allowing Wynne to become a Blood Mage is that gives the gamer freedom to shape the party members. It would have been perfectly logical for Wynne not to have access to the blood mage spell tree. Morrigan is an apostate but gets a pass by the templars because she is helping the warden (the warden has the right of conscription) and they have other pressing matters.

The problem is that the beginning storyline in DA2 can fit the warrior and rogue, but not the mage. Bioware/EA simply did not give itself enough time to fully develop a mage storyline.

If Bioware had left the mage out of the game there would be an even bigger outcry, since a lot of gamers have a preference for the mage class.

So you have templars and guards looking the other way during Act 1 and Act 2 while either Hawke or his mage party members sling magic left and right.

Act 3 has Hawke as the Champion which makes Hawke virtually untouchable with both nobles and commoners supporting Hawke. Meredith is still waiting for Hawke to slipup so she can send Mage Hawke to the Circle or the grave.

Blood magic in DAO can be ratioalized except for Wynne (storywise) . Magic in DA2 the way the storyline is written cannot be. Do not get me wrong I have a great deal of fun playing Mage Hawke more so than Mage Warden in DAO

[Realmzmaster]

EJ107 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I could argue that being able to learn Templar abilities without joining the order is a massive plothole in and of itself. I could extend that logic to all of the specializations in DA2. Who teaches Hawke to be an Assassin, or a Spirit Healer or a Berserker? Is the knowledge just lurking in his subconcious?

But whether or not you have the ability to join the Templar Order is moot. Templars are just as important to the plot as Blood Mages are. Hawke's learning of those abilities could and would be interpreted as implicit support of the Templar Order, and Anders would still be pissed off at you for learning abilities that are specifically designed for hunting down and destroying renegade mages.

People noticing that Hawke is a blood mage would just create more plotholes when they refused to acknowledge other specializations that imply similar, socially unacceptable behaviour, such as drinking people's blood. They can either notice everything or nothing.

Learning templar techniques to shield yourself from harmful magic-users is not supporting the Templar order in any way- especially if Hawke uses them to help mages in the game, and I doubt Anders would care at all. The reaver specialisation may sound grim but unless the actual drinking takes place during combat it would be easier to keep discrete. Blood mages on the other hand are hated and hunted by everyone, as the magic is in and of itself dangerous. Not to mention just how flashy it is. 

Do reavers drink blood during actual battle? Can it not be kept at least partially discrete? Personally I just hated that specialisation as a whole, but I still doubt it's as blant, dangerous and hated as blood magic is. 

People recognising that Hawke is a blood mage would mean less plot holes, and it would not cause plot holes with the other specialisations, because none of them are worthy of as much attention and other than the Reaver none of them are worthy of being mentioned at all. 

Actually Templar Hawke does cause a problem, because where did Hawke learn those techniques? Alstair was a former templar so he could teach the warden the specialization. If Hawke uses templar abilities say in the sight of Cullen or Thrask do you not think Cullen or Thrask would inquire how Hawke learn those abilities and keep track of someone using their own abilities against them?

The only templars at Ostagar were guarding the mages and I doubt were teaching their skills to others warriors.

People recognizing Hawke as a blood mage should mean that Hawke would constantly be running from the guards and templars until Hawke became champion. Even then would Meredith , nobles and commoners declare a known blood mage to be champion? That seems even a bigger plothole because it directly violates Chantry teaching moreso that an apostate mage.

[Ianamus]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Actually Templar Hawke does cause a problem, because where did Hawke learn those techniques? Alstair was a former templar so he could teach the warden the specialization. If Hawke uses templar abilities say in the sight of Cullen or Thrask do you not think Cullen or Thrask would inquire how Hawke learn those abilities and keep track of someone using their own abilities against them?

The only templars at Ostagar were guarding the mages and I doubt were teaching their skills to others warriors.

People recognizing Hawke as a blood mage should mean that Hawke would constantly be running from the guards and templars until Hawke became champion. Even then would Meredith , nobles and commoners declare a known blood mage to be champion? That seems even a bigger plothole because it directly violates Chantry teaching moreso that an apostate mage.

I agree that Hawke learning to use templar abilities in the first place makes no sense, I just don't think it's worthy of being mentioned every other minute after you have learned them, like being a blood mage should be. 

I don't think that anyone and everyone should know Hawke is a blood mage, but your party members should. I just want small things- like some companions gaining rivalry or friendship, and some remarks from companions like Merrill saying "Oh you can talk! I know that you practice blood magic as well!" if you criticise her use of it, or Aveline telling you that she doesn't like your methods and that if she wasnt you friend she would have turned you over to the templars. 

Modifié par EJ107, 11 août 2012 - 02:05 .

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

They can either notice everything or nothing.

I agree. All of the specs need to be recognized. I should be able to learn blood magic from Merrill and/or Torpor in-game as well as have that carry consequences -- both towards companions like Fenris and NPCs like the Templars.

I should be able to learn the Templar abilities through... well... Templars. Ideally through an entire quest chain where you're supporting the Templars and it comes up at some point.

I should be able to learn how to be a Duelist from Isabela. And an assassin from Athenril's group.

Force Mage? Circle Mages.

And so on and so forth.

Plaintiff wrote....

Writer's don't decide which specializations will or will not be available, so it's not always easy to accomodate for those choices.

I've never bought into that line of thought. Bioware made a story that was supposed to be centered around (Blood) Mages and Templars along with Hawke's general Rise to Power -- whether it achieved that in the minds of the players is another matter and entirely irrelevant -- so they had already chosen which three specializations would be in-game, by virtue of their critical importance to the story.

Blood Mage, Templar, Reaver.

Add into that the lore that established Kirkwall as the premier sanctum for refining research into Force Magic, and that's your 4th.

I just can't buy into this notion that the writers don't decide what specializations will be available. The lesser-important ones maybe, but because they're writing the story they're deciding which specializations have the most importance, at least when the story itself deals with the specializations -- as opposed to DAO, where Templars and Mages weren't the focus and Darkspawn were, and we don't have a Darkspawn specialization.

They may not be the ones handling the actual placing-in as it were, but it's not like they shouldn't really expect these ones to be chosen. Especially when writing has to be done before anything else gets done.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 août 2012 - 04:02 .

[hussey 92]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Being a mage in DA2 is possibly the biggest plot hole ever introduced into any RPG game.

exactly, no one noticed if you were a mage let alone a bloodmage.

[Lemina Ausa]

hussey 92 wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

Being a mage in DA2 is possibly the biggest plot hole ever introduced into any RPG game.

exactly, no one noticed if you were a mage let alone a bloodmage.

Yea, you can call down massive firestorms in the middle of lowtown and nobody cares. Mereidth was the only one who commented on you being a mage, and she promptly forgets it afterwards.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Story/Gameplay segregation is stupid. While one may defend specific instances of it for various reasons, the concept itself ought to be treated with utter disdain. Especially when it deals with aspects critical to the main plot.

/thread

Hope BioWare does intend to work on improving reactivity in the next game.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 11 août 2012 - 05:04 .

[Cultist]

Ah, yes. Casting Blood Magic spells left and right and listening how awful BM are and how your party members are glad thay you help them in opposing BMs.

[Realmzmaster]

Lemina Ausa wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

Being a mage in DA2 is possibly the biggest plot hole ever introduced into any RPG game.

exactly, no one noticed if you were a mage let alone a bloodmage.

Yea, you can call down massive firestorms in the middle of lowtown and nobody cares. Mereidth was the only one who commented on you being a mage, and she promptly forgets it afterwards.

Actually Meredith uses that knowledge to blackmail Mage Hawke into hunting down the mages in the quest On the Loose. Hawke and Anders also comment on Meredith just waiting for mage Hawke to slipup so she can send Mage Hawke to the Circle , tranquil or the grave. Meredith does not forget.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 11 août 2012 - 06:05 .

[Lemina Ausa]

Realmzmaster wrote...


Actually Meredith uses that knowledge to blackmail Mage Hawke into hunting down the mages in the quest On the Loose. Hawke and Anders also comment on Meredith just waiting for mage Hawke to slipup so she can send Mage Hawke to the Circle , tranquil or the grave. Meredith does not forget.

I see, I got bored of the game by act 3 and stopped for some time so I didn't get far enough. Still, most of the templars and other people in the game are TOTALLY blind to the fact that you're casting spells right in front of them. I remember one part, where I was casting a firestorm, and a templar walks past me and goes "good day ser"........

[nightscrawl]

Just to add to the discussion, here is what was said about this at PAX East...

Q: So, in the previous Dragon Age games, there was sort of this thing where you could become a Blood Mage and use magic illegally in front of people who would arrest you for it, but then they were like "OK, thanks!" So I was kind of wondering if there would be, something like, you guys mentioned you wanna like integrate the story more. But I was thinking, story goes beyond just conversation options. Story is: who you make your character, what selections you make, where you fight, what you fight; those types of things. How much is that going to be integrated into the next hypothetical Dragon Age game?

A David: You're right. One of the plans, when Mike's talking about "having more consequences for your choices," one of those consequences will be for the class you play, in particular the specialization you play. A lot of it came down to was how much we could do for each specialization. And the hard part for something like Blood Mage specifically was that it has such a large presence in the world that belies the fact that it's just one of a number of specializations, right? So, it was hard to do it properly. But what we would LIKE to do is have each of the specializations be more "special," in terms not only of how you get it, but what happens once you've gotten it. So yes, I would say, definitely we're looking at having more recognition by the world of things like "I am a Blood Mage." Yeah.

A Mike (further commentary on this question): I'll be quite frank in I'm increasingly starting to feel like something we should be doing is making the specializations "singular." So you have ONE, and you pick it, and THAT affects the outcome of your story; because it's the permutations and combinations of having like "OK these two for this class" and "How does that interact if I'm a Spirit Healer and a Blood Mage? Do I fight myself?" that kind of stuff, that means it tends to fall down. So we may exploring just bringing it down to one and having it have a greater impact as a result of that choice.

And a paraphrase from David in another interview type thing...

The reason NO ONE (including hawke) reacts to you being a blood mage if you choose to be, is because the programmers decide on the specialization trees, AFTER all the writing and dialogue is done. So while the writers want to create reactions, they can’t if they don’t know if Blood Magic is an option. It would have been a huge ordeal to go back and add a bunch of references. They could have written lines “just in case,” but can you imagine how time-consuming it would be to write alternate lines everywhere “just incase?”

[nightscrawl]

Lemina Ausa wrote...

I see, I got bored of the game by act 3 and stopped for some time so I didn't get far enough. Still, most of the templars and other people in the game are TOTALLY blind to the fact that you're casting spells right in front of them. I remember one part, where I was casting a firestorm, and a templar walks past me and goes "good day ser"........

Lol... The worst is probably when you go talk to Cullen about Wilmod and that confrontation happens. Although perhaps he ignores that because you just saved his ass.

[Zanallen]

Bioware should solve this problem by removing the mage class completely. Being a mage just doesn't fit with the environment in Thedas currently without some stupid plot device like "Grey Warden" to counter the mage hate.

[Tinu]

Zanallen wrote...

Bioware should solve this problem by removing the mage class completely. Being a mage just doesn't fit with the environment in Thedas currently without some stupid plot device like "Grey Warden" to counter the mage hate.

That's not a solution. I don't believe any of the players would be pleased if they removed the mage class. It needs to be worked on, but not removed. 

[nightscrawl]

Zanallen wrote...

Bioware should solve this problem by removing the mage class completely. Being a mage just doesn't fit with the environment in Thedas currently without some stupid plot device like "Grey Warden" to counter the mage hate.

But I want to be able to shoot lightning at fools .

I do agree to a degree though. It will be interesting to see what they come up with, especially if the mage PC is another apostate, like Hawke. If a Circle mage, it's certainly doable. See: Asunder.