614 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyonan]

Rebel_Raven wrote...
Well, that's another hit to DfS's credibility, posting bad numbers despite the error being pointed out. He didn't double check then, and I'm amazed he double checked after posting this thread. Probably did only to try and bolster his nonexistant credibility.

I think the reason people don't tell balance All things to stop coz they said "nerf" is that they seem to keep to themselves unlike DfS.

From your description of the way things are now, it certainly does feel like it's dying, which is a shame. It'd be nice to have people championing the cause of buffs, and more people trying to ka-bosh this kangaroo court, and perversion of scientific theory of a thread.

Then again talking about nerfs all day long, and reading about people wanting them, and seeing people keep wanting them, despite calling it "balance" is demoralizing. Small wonder the group's degrading.

Most ideas of "balance" people come up with are spitting on us and telling us it's raining.

I had hoped I talked some sense into DfS, but apparently not since he's continuing his crusade to nerf, and still do nil to buff aside from a token attempt in renaming the thread, yet doing nothing to his original post, and still not changing the theme of his pursuits.

Yeah, most of us keep it to that group. The only recent discussion we've had that involved proper numbers was about the Piranha(And whole lot of me arguing against a 33% damage nerf). Everything else is pretty much just people giving opinions on changes made or clarifying game mechanics.

When I first joined there was more buffing going on than nerfing. I still believe some nerfing is neccessary, but that only really should be used just to avoid getting into the never ending buff cycle, and no more than that. Honestly if they gave me full control over balance changes for some insane reason, the only thing I'd probably nerf is the Geth Infiltrator(and i'd probably try to keep his damage output intact).

I'd love to have more discussions about proper balance on the forum, being open to all ideas. Though not dominating the forums like it does now.

Modifié par Cyonan, 12 août 2012 - 06:17 .

[Rebel_Raven]

Cyonan wrote...

Yeah, most of us keep it to that group. The only recent discussion we've had that involved proper numbers was about the Piranha(And whole lot of me arguing against a 33% damage nerf). Everything else is pretty much just people giving opinions on changes made or clarifying game mechanics.

When I first joined there was more buffing going on than nerfing. I still believe some nerfing is neccessary, but that only really should be used just to avoid getting into the never ending buff cycle, and no more than that. Honestly if they gave me full control over balance changes for some insane reason, the only thing I'd probably nerf is the Geth Infiltrator(and i'd probably try to keep his damage output intact).

I'd love to have more discussions about proper balance on the forum, being open to all ideas. Though not dominating the forums like it does now.

A 33% damage nerf? That's ludicrous! I'm glad no one's dragged that into public forums.

I'm glad there's people like you on the board, bluntly.

[DHKany]

but the slashes can only hit stuff on their level can't they?
and they also move you forwards.

[Cyonan]

Rebel_Raven wrote...

A 33% damage nerf? That's ludicrous! I'm glad no one's dragged that into public forums.

I'm glad there's people like you on the board, bluntly.

I was happy with it going slightly below original damage. At a 33% cut it would have had equal damage output to guns that have much better effective range.

Though to put it back on topic, I had a few runs with the Slayer, using a Biotic Slash spec. Always Random/Random/Gold pugs.

I got in plenty of Slashes, but I couldn't just sit in one place and spam it, and my gun saved me more times than I can count. Overall I did good, and came in first(to be fair I come in first 95% of the time in gold pugs regardless of my setup, though), but it's far from what I would consider overpowered. The damage output against bosses really wasn't terribly impressive. It was mostly good for small packs of trash mobs.

My games today which had a considerable number of Slayer Slash spammers also shows that for the average player, it's a fairly high risk thing if you aren't doing a camp setup, as they all died very frequently.

Modifié par Cyonan, 12 août 2012 - 06:53 .

[DHKany]

death_for_sale wrote...

DHKany wrote...

but the slashes can only hit stuff on their level can't they?
and they also move you forwards.

They can hit very slightly below their level and a bit above. This is by far mitigated by the distance.

oh ok.
thanks for the info.

[Xeraphas]

Cyonan wrote...

I would say that a balance change is needed, but in this case it's to Smash rather than the Slashes.

Both the Slashes are certainly effective when spammed, but they're hardly what I would call overpowered.

If they didn't like Smash's cooldown at 5 seconds, they should increase the damage to compensate.

That is a good idea or they could split the difference and make CD at 7 seconds base rather than 8 like it is now or 6 like it was before the nerf.  Or do both.

Modifié par Xeraphas, 12 août 2012 - 06:57 .

[DungeonHoek]

RGZ Archer wrote...

DungeonHoek wrote...

RGZ Archer wrote...

DungeonHoek wrote...

I hate to say this, I REALLY do, but its the way it looks like things might be going.

Three years ago, only a small number of games had DLC, now almost EVERY game that comes out has DLC. The next logial step up from DLC is being able to use real money to buy in game content on demand. Trust me, NOTHING good comes from change, and that goes double when it comes to profit being made

True, but, like I said, look at Diablo 3. That game bombed horribly. And it's whole model was built around using real money to play the game.

And most "gold farming" games I have seen like Evony, Galaxies online. Sure, they rake in alot of money for awhile. But they never last more then a year or two at most, because they become dominated by the credit-card players. And the designers don't actually put any real work into anything other then bilking you for your money.

True, but if the game designers cared about the players and not just ther profit, ME3 would have had a very different ending. Keep in mind, once a person buys a copy of a game, the company makes money, each time someone buys DLC or a micro transaction, they make more. The trick is them finding a balance between ME3 and Diablo 3, screw us enough to make money, but not enough that people wont play the game. They dont have to last long, just have to make money, which is the bottom line.

Besides, Diablo 3 had a LOT more wrong with it than JUST the money issue.

Everyone here thinks they know what nerfing is? They think they know what butthurt is? Diablo 3 was nailed with a 50% reduction in attack speed back a few months back. Think about that for a second, FIFTY PERCENT. Thats the very thing I fear will happen here at this rate with all the whiners and complaners.

Is it fair? No. Am I happy? Heck no! But I wish everyone would just leave the few things that are still OP alone for those of us that just want to have some fun with this dying beast of a game till Fall of Cybertron, Bordelands 2 and Assassins Creed 3 comes out (the final three nails in the coffen for this games online community).

Seriously?, 50% reduction in attack speed, BASIC attack speed?. What?, was it not fair to the AI that people could attack and kill something?.

I mean honestly, I don't see the point in nerfing or "balancing" for this game at all. We're not up against each other, we're up against AI's.

Nerf's have always been better suited for PVP stuff when something has actually been game breaking, most of the time I've read this stuff, it's always something dumb. I mean really, the Typoon was OP because of this, the Piranha was OP because of that. But now its "balanced" because of a slight reduction in damage which didn't change anything.

I read snobbish comments from elitist's who want people to stay in lower difficulties because ZOMG a weapon or power enabled them to get into a higher difficulty, yet those same dinks don't realise or don't want to that people often need a starting point to grow in skill. I certainly couldn't do Silver and Gold at first, and it took getting the right characters, the right build, and learning the right things to be able to play as I do.

Yet "crutch's" are made out to be a permenant and horrible thing, really, I believe this is a case of pure sickening elistism. And in the long run this is just trying to take away how people like to have fun.

But yeah, at the rate it's going I don't see this lasting very long especially with this happy community. I don't now how much I will be playing over the coming months. What with me getting Fall of Cybertron, Borderlands 2, Resident Evil 6, X-Com: Enemy Unknown, and Hitman Absolution, and then Dead Space 3 and Aliens Colonial Marines.

Attack speed is something you could upgrade and buff, the nerf however was...not well recieved to say the least.

To EVERYONE who wants to see just what complaining about something being OP in a game results in, look up Dablo 3 patch 1.0.3 THAT is the king of all nerfs. Also you can find an overview here:

http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/20120620

Yeah, this games heading down the same path, FAST.

I remember that comic, didn't look to much into that at the time.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

This thread is still going on?

DfS, can you upload a vid of a Slashguard on a normal game. Not Glacier, or White.

Farming setups are just that. Farming setups. They were made to allow anyone to succeed.

[Cyonan]

Xeraphas wrote...

That is a good idea or they could split the difference and make CD at 7 seconds base rather than 8 like it is now or 6 like it was before the nerf.  Or do both.

It was 5 seconds pre-nerf. Overall I think the speed of it feels pretty good, Vangaurd can still do Biotic Explosions with a follow up Charge as long as he's got good recharge speed from weight.

The very short range of it can be very hazardous to your health on certain maps, though.

[Lee80]

mrcanada wrote...

Threads like this are killing this game.  

Indeed.  The status update for the weekend event is proof that all this balance BS is driving away the players.  People want to play the game to have fun, not to die over and over again to cheap AI using peashooters instead of guns.  I hate what this game has become, and wish it would move in the right direction back to what it was meant to be.  

[Rebel_Raven]

death_for_sale wrote...

Personally I think it is perfectly balanced, as I've said before multiple times. Thanks for trying to speak for me with what you THINK I might say.

Where there's smoke, there's fire. If people don't trust you, then there's probably a reason. <.<

death_for_sale wrote...

You cannot blame my mistakes or my position on the Balance group, they are mine alone and have nothing to do with them. I have owned up to the mistakes, corrected them, and done my best to provide answers or corrections to anyone who has asked. I will say this, I asked for assistance in the group repeatedly for corrections or other information. After three days, I did my own test on the stacking dot for Smash, because there was no forward movement in the thread. I'll admit, I jumped the gun on my data, but I almost feel that I was being setup to fail on it. In the future, I will not rely on other people's data and I will do all testing myself to avoid a repeat of this situation.

You on the other hand, have continually become more snide in your posts and generally have done nothing other than try to attack my credibility. Every single post you make gets more vicious and has less factual information, even though I have done my utter best to try to see things from your viewpoint. You repeat the same thing over and over, that my numbers were wrong and I skewed data, you do your best to discredit me without looking at my argument, and it seems as if you are angling to get me kicked out of the balance group.

I have done all of the apologizing I am going to do on my mistakes at this point. If you can't be reasonable and quit trying to say I falsified data on purpose, even though I apologized profusely and changed it as soon as humanly possible, then you can take a flying leap.

Honestly, I didn't know you were a member in the first place as opposed to someone who ran in, posted findings, waited, got told you were wrong, then ran off and posted anyhow without experience with the power you're trying to nerf.

Considering that you are a member, you're making a horrible impression for them as you're extremely vocal about several nerfs. I'm glad there's reasonable members speaking up, maintaining some of the group's reputation!

What the group does with you is up to them. If they keep you, or kick you out, so be it. I'm just calling things as I see them.

I'm sorry, but until you take into account the pros, and cons of a power instead of only it's DPS under the most ideal of situations (basically taking nothing into account but the DPS being that situation, apparently), you're skewing data. Telling half truths.

You want facts?

You ignore the practicality of using what you've set your sights on for nerfing in favor of the ultimately perfect situation, and focus only on that one aspect.

You ignore the cons of an ability even when the one of the cons are hitting your slayer in the face like a blast of Pyro fire... or Prime canon blasts as you try to use the ability you're trying to nerf. THEN you try to sweep the cons of the power under the rug, and pretend they don't exist.

You know, the fact that you're extremely exposed trying to use either slash even behind a counter? A fact that raises the risk of using this power to probably be one of the most dangerous abilities to use? High risk, high reward, right? But you seem to not care, and want high risk, low reward.

That it's a crap power vs Boss units?

You lack experience and are calling for Nerfs on powers you've apparently not used very much. It's the worst thing you can do. It's why people hate nerfers. Those nerfers ignorantly want to remove the effectiveness of an ability without appreciating it in the first place.

Ever hear Garrus say something along the lines of having to respect the abilities of your enemy? It's true. If you want sometihng nerfed, you have to respect the ability, and it's place in the game at the least.

You were an observer on the outside looking in, deciding you didn't like something, and went about trying to destroy it while having incredible ignorance of the matter, riding the coat tails of other's information. I guess it explains why you refuse to look at the variables, pros, and cons, and only focus on DPS. You don't know the pros, and cons to begin with.

Further, you can't balance powers like you do guns. They're part of a -character-, and their inner balance as well as balance with other classes.

You're affecting classes, and characters that may have to end up living with your nerf requests. I question how much you care about what you try to nerf.

The lack of care is apparent because you apparently didn't test slayer at lvl 20 yourself before jumping the gun from the look of things.

It's not so much that you tested an pre-20 Slayer in your vid, it's that, apparently, your slayer wasn't even level 20 before you decided his power was OP!

Thank the universe no class shares the slashes, you probably wouldn't care how it impacted them, and just focused on Shadow, and Slayer. You sure lacked the appreciation of mass impact when you campaigned against the pirahna. Thank the universe Bioware went easy on it.

I'm not trying to discredit you so much as I'm trying to make you see what it is you're -really- doing, and what's wrong with it. Unfortunately you've plugged your ears, sung the smurf's song as loud as you could, and then resumed trying to get an ability nerfed.

Cyonan wrote...

I was happy with it going slightly below original damage. At a 33% cut it would have had equal damage output to guns that have much better effective range.

Though to put it back on topic, I had a few runs with the Slayer, using a Biotic Slash spec. Always Random/Random/Gold pugs.

I got in plenty of Slashes, but I couldn't just sit in one place and spam it, and my gun saved me more times than I can count. Overall I did good, and came in first(to be fair I come in first 95% of the time in gold pugs regardless of my setup, though), but it's far from what I would consider overpowered. The damage output against bosses really wasn't terribly impressive. It was mostly good for small packs of trash mobs.

My games today which had a considerable number of Slayer Slash spammers also shows that for the average player, it's a fairly high risk thing if you aren't doing a camp setup, as they all died very frequently.

I whole heartedly agree.

In most camp scenarios (Ones that don't involve mics) you're still going to get hammered unless things are going perfectly, or you're not spamming the power.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Halfway through this weekend's Operation, we're less than 33% complete.

By all means, lets keep nerfing things and drive even more players away. Clearly, that's working out well for us so far.

[Father_Jerusalem]

death_for_sale wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Halfway through this weekend's Operation, we're less than 33% complete.

By all means, lets keep nerfing things and drive even more players away. Clearly, that's working out well for us so far.

Perhaps it is because quite a few people could care less about the allied reward.

Perhaps it is because quite a few people are irritated at people like you crusading to get every last bit of fun removed from this game in your asinine quest for "balance" (a balance, I may add, I've noticed you only want through nerfs) and simply don't give a crap anymore. 

The store system is terrible. The credit rewards are pathetic. And the constant whining for nerfs is beyond frustrating. 

But by all means. Keep on keeping on. Show those people who's boss, or whatever.

[joker_jack]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Halfway through this weekend's Operation, we're less than 33% complete.

By all means, lets keep nerfing things and drive even more players away. Clearly, that's working out well for us so far.

Perhaps it is because quite a few people could care less about the allied reward.

Perhaps it is because quite a few people are irritated at people like you crusading to get every last bit of fun removed from this game in your asinine quest for "balance" (a balance, I may add, I've noticed you only want through nerfs) and simply don't give a crap anymore. 

The store system is terrible. The credit rewards are pathetic. And the constant whining for nerfs is beyond frustrating. 

But by all means. Keep on keeping on. Show those people who's boss, or whatever.

This is one reason alot of my friends have moved onto other games. The game is changing in ways that make it less fun for everyone but these elitist clowns shoes. They think this is Call Of Duty and thus now how we all should play.

The Dev's need to concider if they want this to continue to be profitable, they need to stop listening to these idiots and stop with the needless nerfs. 

If you want any sort of balance it starts with glitch fixes not number shifting. 

[TheKillerAngel]

Would you like to try another game?

[K_Os2]

Wait, so you got beat out by one guy with the guy in third within spitting distance of your score you're saying the Shadow is overpowered. Using ES in conjunction with TC that is what you are claiming to be OP and not the skill alone.

[Rebel_Raven]

death_for_sale wrote...

Bold 1 - Or they could be prone to making wild leaps of judgement in emotionally charged vacuum. Or maybe they are just sick right now and angsty...

Bold 2 - This would be only the second time I have posted asking for balance on something.

Bold 3 - I have said that in a non-farm setup the power becomes more difficult to use. I have listed pros and cons. You simply choose to ignore anything I say other than the pros.

Bold 4 - Again, I gave reasons for this, you choose to ignore them.

Bold 5 - It is not crap against bosses, I killed quite a few in both sets of videos. It is only crap if you gimp the skill purposefully. Again, you choose to ignore this and spout your rhetoric.

Bold 6 - I've leveled a slayer and shadow to 20 multiple times. Then I promote. This is why I have a high N7 score. Again, you leap to conclusions and spout rhetoric.

Bold 7 - If anyone has plugged their ears and repeated themselves over and over with no logic, it is you my friend. Every single argument you put forth is illogical, full of vitriol, and ignores anything I have to say. I have come farther towards thinking that, at least on the Slayer perhaps the Slash is only borderline OP, than you have come from singing your swan song about nerfers.

Take a moment and contemplate what you have been doing, because you are really showing yourself as a rabid anti-nerfer frothing at the mouth more than someone who can debate an issue reasonably.

1: Maybe they're just tired of people like the poster? Nerf calles so eager to get something nerfed that they'll skew data, not fact check and post false data, and do so with no sense of balance  so much as merely takign away?

2: With skewed, flawed methods.

3: Then why are you still complaining that it's OP if you know the cons of it? Those cons are what make the power balanced.

Further you made numerous edits to your opening thread and there ARE NO mentions of the cons.

4: Your reasons aren't good enough. Point blank, "because you can farm easy" is not a reason for a nerf.

5: You didn't kill primes so much as got the credit for the killing strike all of once, or twice. That doesn't make a power OP nevermind good vs bosses, it just means you got in the last hit after your comrade(s) dumped firepower into him.

When I finally do see you in a position to even remotely solo a prime, you bail coz you're doing crap to it with the power, and then people come to help you.

And you bail on a prime a second time coz from what I saw your ES just made his armor flicker, and hardly did anything to damage him.

I can't see how you say it's not crap vs bosses when they'll take dozens and dozens of electric strikes to bring down? Your allies are better at taking down primes than you are.

If you bail, you obviously don't have confidence that your powers can take the enemy down.

6: It's no worse than what you do making halfassed nerf cries.

7: I've made numerous logical attempts to dissuade your line of thinking as have many others, and yet here you are, continuing with no aknowledgement of the logical points that people have brought up in your main post, only attempts to stack more and more evidence.

It's just not just me, but plenty of others who have made logical debates!

I'm not a rabid anti-nerfer, I'm a person who cares about the game, and dislikes seeing unqualified nerf calls by people who jump the gun, and don't have the experience with the class as they only later realize they're not as OP as they made them out to be. It's your persistance in making these nerf calls in the face of evidince that the power's actually pretty balanced that's frankly just irritating a lot of people.


As far as your shadow vids go, blaming lag? Really? When you get shot using a high risk ability? Excuses. We all get lag. And you do die a lot in the wind up. And shot a lot in the wind up. And shot after using the power because you're taken out of cover using the ability.

I'll give you credit for not using bleeding edge gear on this one, though.

Also, if you just now come to the realization that they may not be as OP as you think, (Clue here, they're not OP. they're powers on a caster class, so they should be worth using!) I still doubt your experience with the classes. You would've come to that conclusion before saying they're outright OP.

Furthermore, you give classes flak over using their powers... they're supposed to aren't they? A lot of casters spam powers. A lot of classes in general spam powers.

Shadow and slayer are lucky enough to have -good- powers they can spam as opposed to a lot of non-N7 classes.
Fortunately the slashes come with a heavy price to pay as you've seen with your shadow getting blasted out of her boots because she wasn't in cover thanks to ES use.

[DungeonHoek]

All that video footage is showing, is that the skill is good against the non-boss's. Particularly Geth which are supposed to be more vulnerable to electrical based weaponry in the first place (arc grenades anyone?). When you are able to spam it repeatedly. Which means ideal conditions.

Watching the others around you. They out damaged you at every turn they popped up. The guy with the Indra and Piranha (last weeks devil gun) melted everything in their path before electric slash could even kill them. And electric slash barely even scratched those Primes.

I'm sorry, but the more you show of this, the less you have to support what you are saying. This skill is not over powered, its not even slightly over powered. I mean yes, you had a high score sure. But killing small fries adds up.

If you tried the same thing with Cerberus or Reapers, I doubt you would get the same results.