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Biotic and Electric Slash Balance needed or buff Shockwave/Smash


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#526
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Rebel_Raven wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

1. Only if it made sense
2. You misunderstand, I wasn't agreeing with you, I was saying you are simply repeating the same illogical thing over and over again.
3. I've added the cons
4. They are an opinion based on factual data, aka a working hypothesis, yours is simply an emotional opinion because you disagree.
5. Shield stripping does not give you the lion's share of points. Do you play this game?
6. 3 days and attempted verification does not equal rushed data. I did my best and fixed what was wrong when it was pointed out.
7. You've accused me of posting false data on purpose, that pretty much equates to calling me a liar.

As far as your purported experience, given your manifest I would have to say I doubt you play that much. You have gaping holes in many areas and just barely have access to the Shadow/Slayer. You can spout RNG all you want, but players that play a lot typically have more gear unless they play primarily Silver and Bronze.


1: It does make sense.

2: Bummer! I thought you had come to your senses and realized you keep using biased, and false info. I.E. not recognizing KillerAngel using the harrier and the pirahna, instead blaming it all on the pirahna. Seems biased to me. 

3: Thank you, though you missed the aim, and cluttered them with an immediate desire for nerfing. I wish you showed more care in the matter. the fact you don't shows you don't care about the cons so much as using skewed data to show you're "right."
If you're not going to take into account everything, the least you can do is take into account all factors of the powers. To not do so is pure bias.

4: With false data, and no taking into account of how practical it is to use the power, and not enough experience.

5: I still don't see how you got points considering you largely failed to hurt the primes.

6: It counts as rushed data when people pointed out you were wrong with your data. it means you didn't fact check enough which means you rushed it out. You wasted little time in announcing your attempt to get the slashes nerfed in the balance announcement thread.
Further with experience playing you start to reconsider just how OP the power is? Yet the front page doesn't reflect this either? Come on, you're not getting away with just saying it and not following through.

7: Take it how you want, then.

As far as my experience goes it doesn't take long to see that the slashes are only good for killing human sized units, are no good vs bosses, are pretty high risk to use, and there's benefits to using smash, and shockwave not inherent in Slashes.

I've played plenty of gold matches, held my own, carried my share of the load, and did pretty well.

But I do mostly play silver. It's easier to not end up in farming matches, and I don't feel obligated to burn consumeables so I can get all the consumeables you claim everyone has. <.<


Let me sum up your responses to me.

Blah blah blah False Data Blah Blah Blah rush to nerf Blah Blah Blah you refuse to listen Blah Blah Blah Bias Blah Blah Blah you lack experience Blah Blah Blah I don't see how you got points for killing the primes Blah Blah Blah.

These are literally your entire argument distilled down into it's base form. I've answered all of these questions thoroughly and with little to no sarcasm until now. You clearly do not have anything new to add, you have a limited sense of game mechanics, and you are either sitting on a lot of credits from your 'numerous' Gold matches or you haven't played as many as you think. In any case, you are a waste of my time and I am done with you.

#527
Jay_Hoxtatron

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What your test means is that Shockwave should be buffed. (And fixed too, I believe there is an evo that doesn't work.)

#528
xtorma

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death_for_sale wrote...

xtorma wrote...

I still do not see any of your points being proven here.

You were outscored by 13%
You outscored the person below you by 20%
The lowest scorer was an engineer at  level 12.

You scored 28% of the total score. So you did 3% over your share of the score.

I'm seeing a whole lot of balance here.


Yes, versus two Destroyers with good weapons and using higher level equipment than I chose to use. I also was recording and suffering the negative effects of that, probably in the neighborhood of 75% of my normal efficiency. I was also not using the skill in the typical farming setup that I would on that map.


I'm trying to see your side here, but you can't use excuses as to why your evidence isn't matching up that can't be verified. The bottom line is, there is not a big enough disparity between yourself and the others to prove to anyone that your build is overpowered.

#529
MaxShine

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I do not like the approach of the op, demonstrating that the powers are considerably powerful when spammed in a certain setting (farming geth on FBWG).

In the second video he even got outscored easily by a random guy. If something is overpowered it should be strong against all factions on any difficulty. I guess spamming ES vs gold reapers would already prove to be not effective.

I do not like the random video picking from the OP, he could just have cherry picked a video that undermines his agenda. Really, if you want to prove that something is overpowered you have to look at all aspects(different maps, enemies, difficulties). It is like showing that sniping is effective on FB Dagger... wow, who would have thought that?? And we all know how effective sniping and sniper rifles are on other maps... 

With this little (and not very meaningful) data there is no point in crying for 'rebalancing'. Just for fun I tried ES on platinum vs an atlas and measured how long it takes to destroy an atlas only with ES.

You will be surprised that the M-11 Wraith which is very 'average' on platinum did the job twice as fast.

I even did a video of this, if you like to watch it:

AtlasVSElectricSlash

AtlasVSWraith

Does this seem overpowered?? Sometimes I am really glad that Bioware is in charge of the balance changes...

Modifié par 100RenegadePoints, 12 août 2012 - 02:51 .


#530
TheKillerAngel

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100RenegadePoints wrote...

I do not like the approach of the op, demonstrating that the powers are considerably powerful when spammed in a certain setting (farming geth on FBWG).

In the second video he even got outscored easily by a random guy. If something is overpowered it should be strong against all factions on any difficulty. I guess spamming ES vs gold reapers would already prove to be not effective.

I do not like the random video picking from the OP, he could just have cherry picked a video that undermines his agenda. Really, if you want to prove that something is overpowered you have to look at all aspects(different maps, enemies, difficulties). It is like showing that sniping is effective on FB Dagger... wow, who would have thought that?? And we all know how effective sniping and sniper rifles are on other maps... 

With this little (and not very meaningful) data there is no point in crying for 'rebalancing'. Just for fun I tried ES on platinum vs an atlas and measured how long it takes to destroy an atlas only with ES.

You will be surprised that the M-11 Wraith which is very 'average' on platinum did the job twice as fast.

I even did a video of this, if you like to watch it:

AtlasVSElectricSlash

AtlasVSWraith

Does this seem overpowered?? Sometimes I am really glad that Bioware is in charge of the balance changes...


I'M SO OFFENDED YOU'RE CALLING ME A RANDOM GUY

trololol

#531
Major Durza

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 Digging up a few worthwhile posts...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...
DfS, You do realize that Slayer has 1 more method of damage than the shadow, right? 
To balance it out the shadow's slash is  probably a bit stronger.
Stop omitting data, and variables please.

Phase Disruptor, at least in my experience is not that good. It is definitely not in the same league as SS. Realistically, the closest thing to SS that the Slayer has is BC. It also is not nearly the damage skill that SS is. The Shadow's Slash is stronger due to the small dot effect and the damage boost from TC, not from any class comparative skills.

That doesn't matter. PD is still direct attack ability where Shadow gets tactical cloak in it's place. Yes, it has utility, but TC is still not a direct attack.
Biotic charge gets barriers refilled regardless of targets, and more with the right evos where as shadow's evo only works if te target has shields, or barriers at the time of the attack, and only transfers shields.
Biotic charge can affect multiple people. Shadow Strike cannot.
Biotic Charge is also leagues safer, glitch aside. I don't see many vanguards dead by the time they appear at the target, get meleed before the charge strikes preventing them from contacting.
Over all, both classes balance out. 
Honestly, you cannot balance powers the way you do guns. They're integral to a class, and it's balance with others.


SS and BC, two different versions of the same concept with a completely different set of pros and cons.

Biotic Charge:
Invunerability frames
Instant barrier racharge
Staggers multiple targets

Shadow Strike
No need for line of sight
higher damage output than Biotic Charge
Benefits from Melee damage and Tactical Cloak

No invunerability frames(does feel like it has some DR, though)
enemies sometimes detect you mid-attack
Shield recharge only works against some units.

Overall, these two classes are rather balanced with each other, except backwards in that the Shadow is riskier than the Slayer, with higher reward. :whistle:

Phase Disruptor does not have a good damage output, but it is still useful for the ideal Slayer playstyle.  Instant accurate stagger at a distance should not be underestimated.
Slayer does not have the raw damage output that the Shadow has, but that is not all that matters.  I can still score higher with a Slayer than a Shadow, but that is because the Slayer is a whole different animal.  Getting around and making a big mess is what he does best, but I digress...



Rebel_Raven wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

These numbers leave out one important detail: The animation for Slash is very long for squishy characters whose main method of survival is flipping around and not being there when enemies are shooting at you.


It's left out quite a bit more than just that.

Looking at just theorycrafted numbers is a very flawed way of doing things.

Once the videos are up I'll see if they show anything new(provided they're using non farm setups).


I'm gunna get real here. The fact this nerf attempt even exists, and is still persisting reflects poorly on "balance all things" and I can't see'em as credible anymore. I can't respect haphazard "tests" made by biased people who'll skew data, ignore relevant data, and worse just to hurt a class simply because they're potent in the most ideal of circumstances, and sometimes not even then.

 

Hey, HEY not all of us believe weapons are to be balanced around the weapon-boosting classes, optimal maps, and optimal amps.  Nor do all of us believe powers should be balanced around farming, which is ALL this thread is about.

There are several members of that group that do not post on these threads.  Only people I saw from the group posting on this thread is DfS, Cyonan, and myself.  Not entirely sure if Ashen is a member, but that would be another one.


Anyway, the point of this thread (as I have stated earlier) is that this power helps with farming, and is part of an optimal farming setup.
As Cyonan said, there will ALWAYS be an optimal farming setup, whether we systematically nerf all the setups or not.
In the end, if we balance everything around farming, then farming is all that is going to be balanced.  Everything is going to be horribly underpowered in any other circumstances.

The REASON these powers have such high damage output is because they are not meant to be cast more than once at a time.  More of a quick hit-and-run kind of thing.  See how it is used in the trailer, would you even THINK about doing that if it was just going to tickle the enemies you intended to hit?  "Oh crap, look at that large group of enemies over there. I've got a little time, lets just get a hurting on them real quick... YES, aaaannd I'M OUT!"

For its intended purpose, it is not OP.  For farming purposes, sure it is very helpful.

The question is, should we balance around farming runs.  Cyonan, Raven, myself, and quite a few others give a resounding NO.
DfS and a few other seem to think that is the solution, and we are never going to convince them otherwise.  Its like trying to convince farmers to play a regular game, its almost akin to debating preference or religion.  It never gets anywhere.

The slashes being powerful does not affect our games so much, since we do not farm too often. DfS seems to have a lot of stock in it since he does seem to farm frequently.
(I am making an assumption here, Death, since you seem to dismiss the notion that people can run out of equipment, and both of your balance threads included exclusively videos in farming runs.  I note that the Shadow video was somewhat unintentionally FBWGG, but all the same all your videos are either Glacier or White.  Apologies if it is an incorrect assumtion)

Lets keep this in perspective, people.  This is an argument as to whether or not we should balance around farming or not.  We all know that the slashes are not OP outside of controlled circumstances.  We all know that weapons heavily outclass powers nowadays, that even an unmodded Avenger outdoes these powers in raw DPS.

Modifié par Major Durza, 12 août 2012 - 03:05 .


#532
MaxShine

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TheKillerAngel wrote...
I'M SO OFFENDED YOU'RE CALLING ME A RANDOM GUY
trololol


oops, sorry, I did not get that it was not a random player... I hope you will like 'highly respected forum member TheKillerAngel' better ;) otherwise I can edit it out with anything you like

Modifié par 100RenegadePoints, 12 août 2012 - 03:10 .


#533
luciox

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100RenegadePoints wrote...

I do not like the approach of the op, demonstrating that the powers are considerably powerful when spammed in a certain setting (farming geth on FBWG).

In the second video he even got outscored easily by a random guy. If something is overpowered it should be strong against all factions on any difficulty. I guess spamming ES vs gold reapers would already prove to be not effective.

I do not like the random video picking from the OP, he could just have cherry picked a video that undermines his agenda. Really, if you want to prove that something is overpowered you have to look at all aspects(different maps, enemies, difficulties). It is like showing that sniping is effective on FB Dagger... wow, who would have thought that?? And we all know how effective sniping and sniper rifles are on other maps... 

With this little (and not very meaningful) data there is no point in crying for 'rebalancing'. Just for fun I tried ES on platinum vs an atlas and measured how long it takes to destroy an atlas only with ES.

You will be surprised that the M-11 Wraith which is very 'average' on platinum did the job twice as fast.

I even did a video of this, if you like to watch it:

AtlasVSElectricSlash

AtlasVSWraith

Does this seem overpowered?? Sometimes I am really glad that Bioware is in charge of the balance changes...


I am actually surprised that you CAN take down an Atlas only with ES. I even won't borther trying.

#534
TheKillerAngel

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100RenegadePoints wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...
I'M SO OFFENDED YOU'RE CALLING ME A RANDOM GUY
trololol


oops, sorry, I did not get that it was not a random player... I hope you will like 'highly respected forum member TheKillerAngel' better ;) otherwise I can edit it out with anything you like



It's all in good humor.

#535
MaxShine

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luciox wrote...
I am actually surprised that you CAN take down an Atlas only with ES. I even won't borther trying.


It is not worth bothering unless you like whacking at an Atlas for about 2 minutes

#536
Immortal Strife

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The slashes may very well be out of balance on gold but, they sure as hell blow on platinum. So, the question is, should Bioware balance around Gold or Platinum?

#537
Yajuu Omoi

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OuterRim wrote...

xSNPx ZoDiaC wrote...

Re-buff smash, balance achieved.


You want a cookie or something?


Exactly.


Don't forget to buff shockwave too!!

#538
kevchy

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If it's so darn effective, non farming Gold lobbies would have been filled with N7 Slayers and Shadows.

#539
Guest_death_for_sale_*

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100RenegadePoints wrote...

I do not like the approach of the op, demonstrating that the powers are considerably powerful when spammed in a certain setting (farming geth on FBWG).

In the second video he even got outscored easily by a random guy. If something is overpowered it should be strong against all factions on any difficulty. I guess spamming ES vs gold reapers would already prove to be not effective.

I do not like the random video picking from the OP, he could just have cherry picked a video that undermines his agenda. Really, if you want to prove that something is overpowered you have to look at all aspects(different maps, enemies, difficulties). It is like showing that sniping is effective on FB Dagger... wow, who would have thought that?? And we all know how effective sniping and sniper rifles are on other maps... 

With this little (and not very meaningful) data there is no point in crying for 'rebalancing'. Just for fun I tried ES on platinum vs an atlas and measured how long it takes to destroy an atlas only with ES.

You will be surprised that the M-11 Wraith which is very 'average' on platinum did the job twice as fast.

I even did a video of this, if you like to watch it:

AtlasVSElectricSlash

AtlasVSWraith

Does this seem overpowered?? Sometimes I am really glad that Bioware is in charge of the balance changes...


No idea what your build is in Video 1, additionally you do not use TC with the skill. Skills and weapons are supposed to be balanced towards Gold, not Platinum.

#540
Hypertion

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death_for_sale wrote...

100RenegadePoints wrote...

I do not like the approach of the op, demonstrating that the powers are considerably powerful when spammed in a certain setting (farming geth on FBWG).

In the second video he even got outscored easily by a random guy. If something is overpowered it should be strong against all factions on any difficulty. I guess spamming ES vs gold reapers would already prove to be not effective.

I do not like the random video picking from the OP, he could just have cherry picked a video that undermines his agenda. Really, if you want to prove that something is overpowered you have to look at all aspects(different maps, enemies, difficulties). It is like showing that sniping is effective on FB Dagger... wow, who would have thought that?? And we all know how effective sniping and sniper rifles are on other maps... 

With this little (and not very meaningful) data there is no point in crying for 'rebalancing'. Just for fun I tried ES on platinum vs an atlas and measured how long it takes to destroy an atlas only with ES.

You will be surprised that the M-11 Wraith which is very 'average' on platinum did the job twice as fast.

I even did a video of this, if you like to watch it:

AtlasVSElectricSlash

AtlasVSWraith

Does this seem overpowered?? Sometimes I am really glad that Bioware is in charge of the balance changes...


No idea what your build is in Video 1, additionally you do not use TC with the skill. Skills and weapons are supposed to be balanced towards Gold, not Platinum.


against bosses the spam is pretty pointless, it doesnt stagger or do enough damage. however against a small group of small targets even on platinum its pretty easy to wipe them out with wall spam.

i personally dont like both slash moves, and will agree that they are way too spammy... even compaired to pre de-buffed smash they are far stronger due to their very long range.

imo the best way to alter these powers is to switch where the damage is done, making them do the full damage on the slash animation and the slash damage on the shockwave... this would balance it out quite a bit and remove the need to do any nerfs at all.

#541
MaxShine

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death_for_sale wrote...
No idea what your build is in Video 1, additionally you do not use TC with the skill.


It is the same build.

What?? Of course I use TC with the skill. I just
break it and directly perform the electric slash... the TC damage bonus
gets applied this way and I get the ES cooldown instead of the TC
cooldown. If would done it differently it would have taken even longer.
If you do not believe it convince yourself. As forum gamebalancer you should at least know these basic game mechanics.

death_for_sale wrote...
Skills and weapons are supposed to be balanced towards Gold, not Platinum.

I will let the game developer decide that. The earth dlc gives us excellent tools for platinum I might like to add. If you say balance towards gold, I hope you consider different factions and maps next time you try to 'balance' something

#542
MaxShine

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Hypertion wrote...
against bosses the spam is pretty pointless, it doesnt stagger or do enough damage. however against a small group of small targets even on platinum its pretty easy to wipe them out with wall spam.

Exactly, it is terrible against a lot of enemies, brutes, ravagers, primes, banshees or an atlas (as the video proves) It is way more effective to use a gun against these enemies.

I do not see the difference between mowing down trooper level enemies with a (good) weapon or electric slash on any difficulty. Both variants are relatively easy

#543
landylan

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Immortal Strife wrote...

The slashes may very well be out of balance on gold but, they sure as hell blow on platinum. So, the question is, should Bioware balance around Gold or Platinum?



#544
Alijah Green

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threads like this one, reason why no one is around to play this weeks challenge

#545
Untonic

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If I was part of Anonymous, I would hack BioWare Social Network's and destroy all nerf threads.

#546
ABjerre

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100RenegadePoints wrote...
With this little (and not very meaningful) data there is no point in crying for 'rebalancing'. Just for fun I tried ES on platinum vs an atlas and measured how long it takes to destroy an atlas only with ES.

You will be surprised that the M-11 Wraith which is very 'average' on platinum did the job twice as fast.

I even did a video of this, if you like to watch it:

AtlasVSElectricSlash

AtlasVSWraith

Does this seem overpowered?? Sometimes I am really glad that Bioware is in charge of the balance changes...


I cant stop flipping back and forth between the OP and this vid. It is absolutely golden!

+100 Renegade Points for you, good sir!

(Terrible pun very much intended)

#547
Guest_death_for_sale_*

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100RenegadePoints wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...
No idea what your build is in Video 1, additionally you do not use TC with the skill.


It is the same build.

What?? Of course I use TC with the skill. I just
break it and directly perform the electric slash... the TC damage bonus
gets applied this way and I get the ES cooldown instead of the TC
cooldown. If would done it differently it would have taken even longer.
If you do not believe it convince yourself. As forum gamebalancer you should at least know these basic game mechanics.

death_for_sale wrote...
Skills and weapons are supposed to be balanced towards Gold, not Platinum.

I will let the game developer decide that. The earth dlc gives us excellent tools for platinum I might like to add. If you say balance towards gold, I hope you consider different factions and maps next time you try to 'balance' something






I should have said that you do not use TC to fire the skill, then disable tc and fire it again. I wasn't specific enough, apologies.

As far as your build, there is no way to tell, other than you saying it is the same. I don't know what evos you took at all and the only gear you have is a shield booster. Platinum is a challenge difficulty meant for top gear and skilled players, yet you choose to gimp the class gear wise.

The game developer has always said the game is balanced around Gold. Platinum was not added as a difficulty meant for everyone to be able to play.

Redo the test showing the skills you selected and use proper gear on Gold. Then I will be more receptive towards your examples. Until you do that, your evidence cannot be quantified.

Modifié par death_for_sale, 12 août 2012 - 10:16 .


#548
MaxShine

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ABjerre wrote...
I cant stop flipping back and forth between the OP and this vid. It is absolutely golden!

+100 Renegade Points for you, good sir!

(Terrible pun very much intended)


I take the points with pleasure, but I better go see what Dr.Chakwas can do to improve the appearance of my face ;)

Modifié par 100RenegadePoints, 12 août 2012 - 10:52 .


#549
sliverofamoon

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joker_jack wrote...


With the slashes one of the biggest advantages of them is being able to stike from a distance. Shadow Strike isn't as viable all the time. The extra melee bonus gets gimped once tc starts glitching, From personal experience on platinum as recent as last night tc failed continusly 5 times in a row. Shadow Strike in this instance would not be powerful enough to put forth the normal damge out put. In that instance ES was the only me and the team alive.

The slayer and shadow are very squishy classes to begin with. In order to balance that out you need some punch in the power department. Asari Adept for example. Glass Cannon, god amount of damage output (When a be will go off, thatr bug still needs fixing). but poor health.sheilds to balance it out in most common builds.


Agreed. I could say more, but I won't. If the characters weren't so squishy, I don't think people would spam the powers as much. As with Shadow Strike. Most of the time on Silver and up, you are shot or melee'ed to death before you even strike.

#550
its THAT guy

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Jesus. This thread is STILL alive? With 20+ pages?

That confirms it then, the slashes are getting the nerf-bat. LOL