614 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyonan]

death_for_sale wrote...

1292.50 max damage without mods.

80% cloak damage = 1034

1292.5+1034 = 2326.5

You can do two of these per cloak cycle if you spec for it.

2326.5+2326.5 = 4653


Cloak + 2.82 (animation+skill CD), cancel cloak + 2.82(animation+skill CD), Cloak, repeat.

2.82+2.82 = 5.64

I added .05 since cloak seems to take a very short time to activate.

Video if you want to fraps it being fired 4 times in two cloak cycles from :14 to the CD for the new cloak at :27

youtu.be/z8g7ql28p-g

As far as the Locust, again, as I said with the Avenger, you are talking single target damage that cannot go 20m through walls.

So, let's look at 3 targets that are outside of the 30% pre-hit area. Let's say for ease of calculation they don't have shields or armor.

817.75 DPS
817.75 DPS
817.75 DPS

2453.25 DPS vs. your 757.53 on a single target.

Cloak damage is not multiplicative. It's additive(yes, even with the modifiers within the ES ability).

The base damage of the ability is 550, meaning cloak adds 440 damage.

If I were to use your number of 2 per 5.64 you'd get 614.36 DPS, or 1843.08 AoE. With full equipment you'd do 702.12 or 2106.38 AoE.

As far as the Locust goes no gun can shoot through 20m of walls, but you still don't get why I'm using the Avenger or the Locust do you? I'm using them because they're terrible weapons and they still have a better single target DPS. The slashes are terrible against lone mobs. Do you want to see what happens when I use a good gun like the Piranha, Harrier, or Hurricane and account for the AoE of the Slashes?

(Spoiler Alert: the Slashes still lose)

Modifié par Cyonan, 14 août 2012 - 04:53 .

[Cyonan]

death_for_sale wrote...

Additionally, bear in mind that that is with no mods versus max mods on your newest weapon choice to try to overstate the difference.

I was using full equipment for both, it's a fair comparison.

Extended Barrel is fair game, even without equipment. It's there and in a max DPS setup, it's used.

[Cyonan]

death_for_sale wrote...

I uploaded a video if you care to double-check the 5.69 number, I don't have fraps but it seemed to be 2 cloak cycles and 4 slashes in 14 seconds. That would actually be much lower than 5.69 but I don't have the method to verify. I would also like comfirmation that the cloak boost doesn't apply to max power damage without gear or equipment. A link to an official post will be fine.

Let's see, a Claymore X with perfect reload cancel is 833 if all the pellets hit. Let's say you use it with EB V, SRA III, and SA III. That would be 25%+30%+15% = 70%

833 x 70% = 583.1 + 833 = 1416.1 in a perfect situation, ie all pellets hit + reload cancel is perfect + unlimited ammo. On one target. Not through walls. Don't even get me started on Piranha and Hurricane accuracy at 20 M, I ate a ton of those stats when calling for Piranha balancing.

It's actually 1624.35 if you don't consider ammo powers. If you get to use Alliance Training, then so do I.

You aren't going to get a developer link(It probably exists, but the search on this site isn't that good). Best I can give you is Peddroelmz's thread. We tested it in-game, it's additive with other modifiers.

The Harrier and Hurricane on any character both put out numbers similar to the AoE hitting 3 abilities, and they don't lose 66% of their damage for only hitting one target. I don't care that your ability goes through 20 meters of walls. Firing my gun doesn't take control of my character away from me for 1.5 seconds.

When using weapon based users with abilities that boost weapon damage, the Slashes get slaughtered.

death_for_sale wrote...

Every time I use equipment I get called on unfair comparisons, welcome to the club.

Don't care. Use the non consumables if you'd like. Slash numbers will still come out inferior. Guns benefit from equipment way more than powers do. They're actually doing you a favour by not wanting you to count them.

If not using mods, then I might have to upgrade to a Geth Pulse Rifle or something. Either way, Slashes still come out behind.

[luciox]

Cyonan wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

I uploaded a video if you care to double-check the 5.69 number, I don't have fraps but it seemed to be 2 cloak cycles and 4 slashes in 14 seconds. That would actually be much lower than 5.69 but I don't have the method to verify. I would also like comfirmation that the cloak boost doesn't apply to max power damage without gear or equipment. A link to an official post will be fine.

Let's see, a Claymore X with perfect reload cancel is 833 if all the pellets hit. Let's say you use it with EB V, SRA III, and SA III. That would be 25%+30%+15% = 70%

833 x 70% = 583.1 + 833 = 1416.1 in a perfect situation, ie all pellets hit + reload cancel is perfect + unlimited ammo. On one target. Not through walls. Don't even get me started on Piranha and Hurricane accuracy at 20 M, I ate a ton of those stats when calling for Piranha balancing.

It's actually 1624.35 if you don't consider ammo powers. If you get to use Alliance Training, then so do I.

You aren't going to get a developer link(It probably exists, but the search on this site isn't that good). Best I can give you is Peddroelmz's thread. We tested it in-game, it's additive with other modifiers.

The Harrier and Hurricane on any character both put out numbers similar to the AoE hitting 3 abilities, and they don't lose 66% of their damage for only hitting one target. I don't care that your ability goes through 20 meters of walls. Firing my gun doesn't take control of my character away from me for 1.5 seconds.

When using weapon based users with abilities that boost weapon damage, the Slashes get slaughtered.

death_for_sale wrote...

Every time I use equipment I get called on unfair comparisons, welcome to the club.

Don't care. Use the non consumables if you'd like. Slash numbers will still come out inferior. Guns benefit from equipment way more than powers do. They're actually doing you a favour by not wanting you to count them.

If not using mods, then I might have to upgrade to a Geth Pulse Rifle or something. Either way, Slashes still come out behind.

I personally grateful for your kindness and the great effort you put trying to convience OP as much as possiable and logic. But I believe OP just hate ES/BS and want it nerfed or he just want the attention, nothing more. Disregard all the facts other ppls trying to show to the OP, he just insists his twisted numbers are right. I even won't borther to tell him that Nova vanguard has a way higher dps. With the right mod, Nova can do 462.5+25+92.5+12.5+717.5x2+77.5x2+92.25x2+10.25x2=2387.5 damage to a single target every 2.5s which means if facing three targets, a nova vanguard can do 2865 dps. 
And yet, OP is not crying for a nerf for nova, I really have no idea why.

[Cyonan]

death_for_sale wrote...

I see, so with alliance training and all mods you can get numbers that are, as you state in your own words, similar to the AoE hitting 3 abilities.

Why not just add every mod you can and use the GI so you can really slaughter the numbers? I agree that weapon classes are overpowered, but that does not mean that you get to compare them to powers classes. Of the powers that go through walls, these are clearly the highest and hardest hitting.

Video evidence exists that you can link me to, I assume?

Exaggeration will get you nowhere. I'm not applying modifiers to one without applying them to both. When I say that the Harrier/Hurricane damage is similar to ES hitting 3 targets, I am considering ES as having full consumables/gear as well as the guns(not counting defence specific bonuses like ammo powers or hidden modifiers).

Why shouldn't I compare weapons users to power users? Because it doesn't agree with your idea that Slashes should be nerfed?

It's foolish to not look at the wider picture, which is that power spammers are being out damaged by weapons users right now, and you want to widen that gap even more. You can't look at these abilities in a vacuum like you want to. More things than just Slash, Shockwave, and Smash exist.

Being first in a very specific class does not automatically mean it should be nerfed.

Your number is 2326.5. Mine is 1732.5. Cannibal on Gold has 2025 health.

Cloaked ES doesn't kill it. Test yourself if you'd like.

death_for_sale wrote...

Situationally I can lose 66% of my damage through walls, you lose 100%.........

Firing a gun doesn't take control away from you. Powers do. This is the nature of the game. Quit reaching for ways to point out that weapons are better than powers, as I have said, I agree. That doesn't mean you boost powers to weapons, you fix the reasons why weapons are overpowered.

Because Warp takes away control of my character for 1.5 seconds.

How about I compare it using the N7 Shadow. The only modifiers I will apply is 80% from TC and 27.5% or 35% from N7 Shadow passive. Is that a "fair" enough comparison for you?

Being that you can reload cancel and get every Claymore shot cloaked(I've done it numerous times in-game) you end up with:

Electric Slash: 608.96 - 1826.89 DPS depending on number of targets hit.
Claymore X: 1729.25 DPS

Still comparable. Mine still doesn't take control away from you, mine still isn't the best weapon choice in the game yet(Trust me, you don't want me to use the Reegar or even the Piranha), and mine still benefits from consumables and mods more than yours does.

[greghorvath]

Deathforsale, do you actually PLAY this game or do you just do these so called tests? The problem is that you take the numbers and PUG game situations and think you have facts. Perhaps you should pull you head out of where you keep it and realize you are talking about the powers of two extrememly squishy characters. Of course people will abuse these powers: IN PUGS! But who cares what happens there, huh? This is just like being angry at shockwavers when it was you that joined with a sniper class... When with friends, discuss who will play what class and what strategy you will be using. You will not find these abilities overpowered when they aren't abused and if you can't find friends that you can agree on strategy with you are doing even worse a job than with trying to appear smart.

[Ravenguild]

Who ever said shockwave had to have as much damage as any other power it's a detonator not a direct damage power. Sheesh

[Cyonan]

Ravenguild wrote...

Who ever said shockwave had to have as much damage as any other power it's a detonator not a direct damage power. Sheesh

To be fair, Biotic Slash can also be used to detonate, and it also gets a +50% BE damage to Shockwave's +65%.

Of course, at the end of the day we can theorycraft as much as we want, but it doesn't mean much if those numbers don't translate into in-game.

and in-game, weapon users kill things faster than Slash spammers do.

[greghorvath]

death_for_sale wrote...

No, I don't play the game. I just bought all my gear with money apparently.

As usual, you managed to pinpoint and reflect on the irrelevant. Good show.

[WaffleCrab]

i gotta say they are already balanced skills, imho. The reason people use them is utility, on top of dealing damage, they leave an effect for detonation.

[Black Phantom]

WaffleCrab wrote...

i gotta say they are already balanced skills, imho. The reason people use them is utility, on top of dealing damage, they leave an effect for detonation.

Of the 4 skills mentioned in the thread title, only Smash does that.

[Dream-Maker]

Cyonan wrote...

and in-game, weapon users kill things faster than Slash spammers do.

Agreed and so will a properly played shadow or slayer TBH. Most of the time you're gimping your own efficiency by staying behind a wall and spamming slashes. You have no situational awareness at what is happening whatsoever so you're likely to not direct your slashes in an optimal way.

In actual (non farming) gameplay the slashes are deadly but only when used at the right time in specific situations (lined up enemies plus cover nearby, ally setting up BE or TB, etc). Most of the time you just have way better and safer options.

They are useful on farming setups yes but that's the case for many other things. If I'm going to farm on the small room in glacier for example I'll do way better with my demolisher by spamming grenades and scorpion shots to stagger everything that enters in. And not taking much risks either. Slash spam doesn't even look impressive compared to that.

Modifié par Dream-Maker, 14 août 2012 - 08:16 .

[WaffleCrab]

Ashen Earth wrote...

WaffleCrab wrote...

i gotta say they are already balanced skills, imho. The reason people use them is utility, on top of dealing damage, they leave an effect for detonation.

Of the 4 skills mentioned in the thread title, only Smash does that.

of the skills mentioned. smash and SS. while slashes act as detonators. your point being? i was trying to say that smash does not need to change, nor does SS, neither do either of the slashes. So what was your point again?
I use SS and ES regularry. SS, run away for a while, ES = burst.

[greghorvath]

Those harsher parts you call personal attacks are trying to be a wake up call. Unfortunately they are clearly not working. In relation to the main message of my post however they are irrelevant, the main message being that you are taking a power outside of an intended game situation and making calculations that make very little sense outside of excel. And I did not say you had no friends (having no information on that subject). What I said is that PUGs should not matter for "balancing". And this is because ME MP is a cooperative multiplayer and the level of cooperation in PUGs is mostly limited to not shooting each other.

But hey, who am I kidding trying to explain anything to you? After all, you are the guy who argued that a 100% increase in the time necessary for taking down an enemy with the Typhoon is a negligible diffrence.

You seem like a nice guy deep down, so sorry for the offensive tone, but your balancing suggestions and arguments are just out of whack.

Modifié par greghorvath, 14 août 2012 - 09:38 .

[WaffleCrab]

death_for_sale wrote...

greghorvath wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

No, I don't play the game. I just bought all my gear with money apparently.

As usual, you managed to pinpoint and reflect on the irrelevant. Good show.

Would you have liked me to quote the personal attack, perhaps the jab that I always must play pugs and I lack for friends, or something else?

Perhaps you point out any actual 'relevant' portion of your post and I will answer that.

I think majority of the people stopped caring about the points you made, and started just bashing you because they dont see eye to eye with you. Sad sight... I myself think the damage and ability to hit through walls are good as they are. simply because of the time it takes to execute the move, time it takes for the move to hit something at max range, and the frailty of the classes we use them with. if we had either of the slashes on a krogan or a batarian, well that would be a different story.

[Cyonan]

death_for_sale wrote...

So you would suggest buffing all power users to weapon user levels? There is a term for that....something creep, but I forget.

I am comparing comparable items, bananas to bananas. You are asking me to compare a banana to a watermelon to prove your point.

It's not power creep if you aren't boosting the maximum power of the player, so not the term is not power creep =P

There is currently a gap between the power of casters and weapon users. You agree with me on this fact, and yet you want to widen this gap and discourage casters outside of farm games even more than they already are.

As long as weapon users have the lead they do over power spammers, the power spammers shouldn't be getting nerfed. You cannot look at only the data that you want to look at. The fact is that even Slashes can't keep up with weapon users, and pointing at Shockwave or Smash and saying "Look it's better than those two!" isn't going to change that fact.

death_for_sale wrote...
Done, video uploading youtu.be/wO-DC3RYPkE

So you kill an already wounded Cannibal and you accuse me of fixing data?

death_for_sale wrote...
Numbers are still comparable to the second best shotgun in the game, probably soon to be the first again after tomorrow.

You still cannot grasp that I agree with you in that weapons and weapon classes are overpowered compared to casters. You still refuse to compare bananas to bananas. You still ignore the video I posted showing that you can get 2 cloak cycles and 4 slashes off in 14 seconds.

I don't know what to say at this point. I guess I will say what I have said previously, that you also prefer to ignore, if Smash was overpowered and Shockwave is balanced than Slashes are overpowered.

The numbers are still comparable, and it's the 3rd best in terms of raw damage output. Reegar beats everything in damage output, at the cost of effective range. Of course, why is my AoE ability at its' absolute best comparable to my single target gun in damage?

This means at best it's comparable, but anything less than hitting all 3 targets and the Claymore starts winning by a significant amount. The Claymore is the winner here, especially since it benefits from equipment far more than Slash does, can even be upgraded to be able to pierce through enemies to hit multiple ones, and 1 shots plenty of mobs that your Slashes can't.

I also never said weapon users are overpowered. You're saying that, not me. I said that weapons users annihilate power users in terms of damage output. Being better than does not automatically equal overpowered.

I've been using your number of 5.69 per 2 Slashes. If you want me to assume 4 Slashes every 14 seconds that makes Slash numbers look even worse, because I'll be using 7 seconds rather than 5.69.

Smash was never overpowered. It should not have been nerfed. This entire point relies on the idea that people doing balancing are not capable of making mistakes. I'm assuming that Bioware employees are human, and thus it's only natural that they can make mistakes and miscalculations like the rest of us =P

Modifié par Cyonan, 14 août 2012 - 08:52 .

[dday3six]

death_for_sale wrote...

Done, video uploading youtu.be/wO-DC3RYPkE

Pausing the video at 11 seconds in clearly shows that Cannibal is not at full health before you hit it with cloaked Electric Slash. Any credibility you might have, was forfeited with that video.