614 réponses à ce sujet

[AkaShindou]

If this were PvP, I'd understand, but seriously...

[Lexa_D]

I also see a wounded Cannibal. Too low fps for detailed study.

By not accounting for weapons when nerfing powers you just make power classes useless. Which is stupid.

[Lili_oups]

 u mad bro ?

shadow owns leave it alone or play one yourself problem solved.

[xtorma]

death_for_sale wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

So you would suggest buffing all power users to weapon user levels? There is a term for that....something creep, but I forget.

I am comparing comparable items, bananas to bananas. You are asking me to compare a banana to a watermelon to prove your point.

It's not power creep if you aren't boosting the maximum power of the player, so not the term is not power creep =P

There is currently a gap between the power of casters and weapon users. You agree with me on this fact, and yet you want to widen this gap and discourage casters outside of farm games even more than they already are.

As long as weapon users have the lead they do over power spammers, the power spammers shouldn't be getting nerfed. You cannot look at only the data that you want to look at. The fact is that even Slashes can't keep up with weapon users, and pointing at Shockwave or Smash and saying "Look it's better than those two!" isn't going to change that fact.

death_for_sale wrote...
Done, video uploading youtu.be/wO-DC3RYPkE

So you kill an already wounded Cannibal and you accuse me of fixing data?

death_for_sale wrote...
Numbers are still comparable to the second best shotgun in the game, probably soon to be the first again after tomorrow.

You still cannot grasp that I agree with you in that weapons and weapon classes are overpowered compared to casters. You still refuse to compare bananas to bananas. You still ignore the video I posted showing that you can get 2 cloak cycles and 4 slashes off in 14 seconds.

I don't know what to say at this point. I guess I will say what I have said previously, that you also prefer to ignore, if Smash was overpowered and Shockwave is balanced than Slashes are overpowered.

The numbers are still comparable, and it's the 3rd best in terms of raw damage output. Reegar beats everything in damage output, at the cost of effective range. Of course, why is my AoE ability at its' absolute best comparable to my single target gun in damage?

This means at best it's comparable, but anything less than hitting all 3 targets and the Claymore starts winning by a significant amount. The Claymore is the winner here, especially since it benefits from equipment far more than Slash does, can even be upgraded to be able to pierce through enemies to hit multiple ones, and 1 shots plenty of mobs that your Slashes can't.

I also never said weapon users are overpowered. You're saying that, not me. I said that weapons users annihilate power users in terms of damage output. Being better than does not automatically equal overpowered.

I've been using your number of 5.69 per 2 Slashes. If you want me to assume 4 Slashes every 14 seconds that makes Slash numbers look even worse, because I'll be using 7 seconds rather than 5.69.

Smash was never overpowered. It should not have been nerfed. This entire point relies on the idea that people doing balancing are not capable of making mistakes. I'm assuming that Bioware employees are human, and thus it's only natural that they can make mistakes and miscalculations like the rest of us =P

That cannibal had full health. Are you watching the same video?

Weapon users are overpowered, that is why we continually have weapon changes to try to overcome the powers on said classes. Fix the classes and the weapons become fair. I do agree weapon users are OP, I don't think you boost power users to match. That is power creep and nothing else.

You continue to bring weapons into a power discussion. Compare other powers and if they have more range and damage than Slash, I will change my tune.

If weapon users are op , then why buff any weapons at all.

He compares weapons because, as I stated before, balance is not about one power or one gun , it's about all characters.

Here is a nice thought experiment for you. How many nerfs would it take to all the other classes, before the shadow or the slayer, specced for slash would be the choice of the best players for speed runs.

[greghorvath]

death_for_sale wrote...

greghorvath wrote...

Those harsher parts you call personal attacks are trying to be a wake up call. Unfortunately they are clearly not working. In relation to the main message of my post however they are irrelevant, the main message being that you are taking a power outside of an intended game situation and making calculations that make very little sense outside of excel. And I did not say you had no friends (having no information on that subject). What I said is that PUGs should not matter for "balancing". And this is because ME MP is a cooperative multiplayer and the level of cooperation in PUGs is mostly limited to not shooting each other.

But hey, who am I kidding trying to explain anything to you? After all, you are the guy who argued that a 100% increase in the time necessary for taking down an enemy with the Typhoon is a negligible diffrence.

You seem like a nice guy deep down, so sorry for the offensive tone, but your balancing suggestions and arguments are just out of whack.

When you compare 6 seconds to 12 seconds on taking down an Atlas, it is negligible, but that is another discussion.

This thread is primarily a catch-22. Either Bioware admits that they need to buff similar powers or they lower Slash to the same level. This is why I changed the title and why I somewhat changed my intial stance on Slash.

As far as PUGs, I don't have the stats, but I would think that logically most of the games played are full or partial pugs. I know many times with my friends if we have no one else on, we open up to pugs.

Come on, man! You cannot possibly be serious with saying that standing 12 seconds out of cover is not worse than standing 6 out of cover! That may be acceptable in a test with only one Atlas left standing, but mid wave, even 2 seconds count and you know that yourself. You are definitely smart enough to know that.

You have shockwave on a batarian tank while electric slash on a fragile phantom wannabe. As such, the powers are not even remotely similar. Only on paper.

What I am saying with PUGs is that you cannot control people you don't "know". They either will or will not abuse a power/weapon. For example a slash spammer is bound to be a camper (on gold or platinum) which will mean that they will be sensitive to being overrun. If they are not close to the team, they WILL BE overrun and as such will not effect the game for long. If they are close to the team, the team must be camping as well, ergo, you have a team that is okay with power spamming. Thus you actually do not have a problem.

Taking things out of context may help comprehension but it will inevitably distort conclusions.

The stupid thing about balancing (or at least the way it is suggested here on the BSN) is that it is based on people being offended by someone outscoring them... Because it must be overpowered if it can outscore MY favourite combo! So? Change partners, lobbies, setups and the problem is solved.

An example with the Krysae. I got it to lvl X about two minutes after its release. Equipped it on my Salarian Infiltrator and dropped my jaw in the first gold game I had with it. After that game I reequipped the Widow. And this is what people should be doing (not literally...). If they have an issue with a weapon, they should choose one from the 50 others available. If they have an issue with someone using a weapon. Say something over your microphone! Communicate! If you don't like your friends list because they do not listen to you, make new ones!

I play PUGs and try regularly to pick up new playing buddies. So far I have 50 people and about 20 of them are active which means I rarely HAVE TO play with randoms. Nevertheless I do that, and prepare for the worst and will make do with what I get. If I go sniper with a full biotic team, I am the only one to blame if I can't land a single shot, not the others. 
Btw you are free to add me on origin...

Of course there is the other bunch who are just desperately crying for attention with their first recorded platinum solo runs and speedruns and whatnot, trying pathetically to prove how well they understand game mechanics. Usually they only prove they have no idea about what team mechanics work in the game, blinded by the numbers that mean squat in reality. Cooperation in a cooperative multiplayer would actually solve most "problems" brought up on the forums. 

Modifié par greghorvath, 14 août 2012 - 10:34 .

[dday3six]

death_for_sale wrote...

I am done responding after this. I'm tired of being accused of falsifying stuff, tired of the nasty PM's, and generally tired of trying to reason with people.

I'll leave it up the Bioware to decide at this point.

It was always up to Bioware. It's a tad self important of you to think anything less.

[FeralJester616]

Just one point...

Shockwave and Smash can both be aimed up or down...
The slash abilities cannot...

Balance achieved...

[-Sxx-]

death_for_sale wrote...

I am done responding after this. I'm tired of being accused of falsifying stuff, tired of the nasty PM's, and generally tired of trying to reason with people.

I'll leave it up the Bioware to decide at this point.

Whatever.

What do you expect exactly? People are sick of tired of BioWare's rapid response nerfs which usually bring powers and guns to the ground, rendering them useless. Their buffs for the stuff that actually NEEDs buffing/fixing? Tend to be long overdue or laughable i.e. pathetic. This MP isn't going to be lasting very long, especially if BW doesn't actually bring NEW and refreshing content to it, so I'd (and others) would rather enjoy it as it is than have everything nerfed into oblivion for so-called 'balance' when in the long run it won't be useful or make a significant difference. 

[ABjerre]

greghorvath wrote...
Come on, man! You cannot possibly be serious with saying that standing 12 seconds out of cover is not worse than standing 6 out of cover! That may be acceptable in a test with only one Atlas left standing, but mid wave, even 2 seconds count and you know that yourself. You are definitely smart enough to know that.

You have shockwave on a batarian tank while electric slash on a fragile phantom wannabe. As such, the powers are not even remotely similar. Only on paper.

What I am saying with PUGs is that you cannot control people you don't "know". They either will or will not abuse a power/weapon. For example a slash spammer is bound to be a camper (on gold or platinum) which will mean that they will be sensitive to being overrun. If they are not close to the team, they WILL BE overrun and as such will not effect the game for long. If they are close to the team, the team must be camping as well, ergo, you have a team that is okay with power spamming. Thus you actually do not have a problem.

Taking things out of context may help comprehension but it will inevitably distort conclusions.

The stupid thing about balancing (or at least the way it is suggested here on the BSN) is that it is based on people being offended by someone outscoring them... Because it must be overpowered if it can outscore MY favourite combo! So? Change partners, lobbies, setups and the problem is solved.

An example with the Krysae. I got it to lvl X about two minutes after its release. Equipped it on my Salarian Infiltrator and drapped my jaw in the first gold game I had with it. After that game I reequipped the Widow. And this is what people should be doing (not literally...). If they have an issue with a weapon, they should choose one from the 50 others available. If they have an issue with someone using a weapon. Say something over your microphone! Communicate! If you don't like your friends list because they do not listen to you, make new ones!

*snip*

Of course there is the other bunch who are just desperately crying for attention with their first recorded platinum solo runs and speedruns and whatnot, trying pathetically to prove how well they understand game mechanics. Usually they only prove they have no idea about what team mechanics work in the game, blinded by the numbers that mean squat in reality. Cooperation in a cooperative multiplayer would actually solve most "problems" brought up on the forums. 

After reading this thread, i was about to post somehting like this. Quoting seemed a lot easier.

On a side note: I used my Krysae a bit longer, but eventually i did get boring, thus i returned to my beloved Valiant and Black Widow (for SR's) on my infiltrators. I wish that others would do the same, and do so quietly instead of screaming that something is OP the first time someone in a random PUG is spamming it.

[Strajder69]

I mostly play as a slayer because i got tired of other classes. Playing with him is like playing with roboninja (that was a good movie) and i can tell you that he is the weakest of all new characters. His main advantage is biotic slash. If you take this away from him then the character is useless. I mostly use phase disruptor to weaken one or group of enemies and then finish them with indra or melee attack. Maybe biotic slash is a little bit op but that can be balanced by increasing his recharge time.

Shadow is far more powerful then slayer. With her there is no need for electric slash at all, just using tactical cloak and shadow strike is enough to be a badass.

[Lexa_D]

death_for_sale wrote...

Lexa_D wrote...

I also see a wounded Cannibal. Too low fps for detailed study.

By not accounting for weapons when nerfing powers you just make power classes useless. Which is stupid.

Ok, before I go up the stairs, does the cannibal have full health? Do I fire at the cannibal, use another power, or mystically drain it's health as I get close?

When I fired ES, I was faced partially down and away. The prehit came right as I was turning, which started the damage. If you can't see and understand that, then you are not watching the same video.

That's a good explanation, thanx

Still, need to consider both powers and weapons in the equation. I for once disagree that powers should have the same DPS as weapons though, as you need to actually aim weapons. Still, the difference should be below 2 times.