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Biotic and Electric Slash Balance needed or buff Shockwave/Smash


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#101
CmnDwnWrkn

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Zero 2362 wrote...

DAO MAdhatter wrote...

I just think that the slashes need to have they're reach shortened. When these abilites can out reach smash & flamer by a country mile than something is wrong. Shorten them down to 5 or 10 meatures than drop they're evo to 5 meatures & everything wil be cherry.


And what about shockwave? its a similar power only with less damage and no qind up. All in all its a lot easier to use and the character isnt half as easy to kill. Why hasnt this been brought up? I actually think shokwave is far easier to use in thiss situation than the slashes are


Shockwave has shorter range and does about 1/4 the damage of Biotic Slash.

#102
KalilKareem

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You can get the cloaked slash dps even higher by going cloak->manual decloak-> slash. No need for power use evo either.

#103
AresKeith

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death_for_sale wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

do you even use them DFS?


Considering he suggested one make a macro to just fire these off against a wall, I'd say no.

You'd be lucky to get away with that on bronze without being carried with such a tactic.


Yes, I do use them all the time.
No macro, since that would be cheating, but I addressed your comments on this earlier.


well if you don't like the slashes then play a different game, if no, then enjoy the MP for what it is, a CO-OP game


It is a co-op game, but how is it fair to the other players if you have two overpowered classes that can do far more than they can with similar abilities? Do you think they are having fun being carried? If you do, you are wrong.


by they, do you mean yourself? because not that many people on here are crying about a power that isn't Op, its crowd control

#104
Dream-Maker

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Your numbers don't seem take into account the wind up time though (or I am missing something). Also by listing only DPS values you're forgetting some actual practical uses of the moves. And you don't seem to include force damage on unprotected targets for smash as well as the potential bonus damage it can get from setting up tech bursts / biotic explosions.


Let's try to make a fair comparison between the slashes and smashes in themselves.

- As for pure damage : it's about the same between all skills. Slashes can get a bit of more damage if done close range because they hit during the wind up, but smash can get huge force damage on unprotected targets and with the right evo a huge damage bonus to barrier and armor (IE it can be great against bosses). It can also have potential DOT damage. Advantage smash.

- For cooldown : it's obvious that here the slashes have the advantage since the last smash cooldown debuff. Advantage slashes.

- Wind up time and related maniability : Smash has the advantage here IMO. It's roll cancellable very early in the startup of the move, its real startup for the shockwave to come out being actually very short. Slashes can hit during the wind up at very close range and have a low profile animation at some point that can dodge some bullets, but the window for roll cancelling is far smaller and can only be done very late. Slashes have nice advantages too but IMO Smash takes the lead here. Advantage smash.

- Range and AOE : no discussion here, slashes have a potential 30m range, 20 with the base evolution and can hit 3 targets. Smash has 8 meters and can hit 2 targets, 3 with the radius evo. Advantage slashes.

- Shockwave direction : interesting point that very few people seem to pay attention to. Smash can easily be oriented to whatever direction to hit upwards and downwards targets. Slashes apparently only have a limited ability to direct their shockwaves vertically and only under some particular circumstances. 90% of the time the shockwave will only travel in a perfectly horizontal way though, no matter how hard you try. Advantage smash.

- Combo compatibility : Smash can prime either BEs or tech bursts depending on the evolution. But slashes are way better detonators and cover more ground. I'm mixed here as to which as the advantage. To me it seems fairly even here. Tied.


Electric slash remains the unknown in the equation though, as it can potentially benefit from Tactical cloack bonuses. But other powers on other infi become monstruous thanks to this skill (like arc grenades). IMO it's more of an infiltrator problem rather than a slash problem. Oh and it also has an ability to knock down than biotic slash doesn't seem to have.

Overall it seems to me that the skills are pretty equal. Smash seems to have more advantages, but the advantages it has over the slashes are often not as big as the advantages the slashes have over it (for example slashes are like a million years better than smash in the general range and AOE department). If tweaks need to be made, I would suggest nothing more than a cooldown increase to put it on par with smash. And also stop screen shaking for every power like that. :P

Modifié par Dream-Maker, 11 août 2012 - 01:06 .


#105
Liddycoat

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Father_Jerusalem wrote...

People like you are why I've quit playing MP.

All you do is sit there and complain about anything the unwashed masses use. How dare other people play the game and have fun, right? How dare anyone but the elite of the elite be able to play multiplayer, right?

Games are supposed to be fun. You're doing everything in your power to make this game not fun. And it's disgusting.

I hope everything you use gets burned to the ground by nerfs. Maybe then you'll be able to be happy now that everyone's reduced to using a Predator 1.


+ 10 internet points.

#106
svocke2

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CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Zero 2362 wrote...

DAO MAdhatter wrote...

I just think that the slashes need to have they're reach shortened. When these abilites can out reach smash & flamer by a country mile than something is wrong. Shorten them down to 5 or 10 meatures than drop they're evo to 5 meatures & everything wil be cherry.


And what about shockwave? its a similar power only with less damage and no qind up. All in all its a lot easier to use and the character isnt half as easy to kill. Why hasnt this been brought up? I actually think shokwave is far easier to use in thiss situation than the slashes are


Shockwave has shorter range and does about 1/4 the damage of Biotic Slash.


Shockwave wont serve you up on a platter for Rocket troopers to skull**** you 

#107
Dillon79

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Try using a black widow with a shadow-****** on your team. Good luck hitting 2/3 shots.

#108
Rebel_Raven

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death_for_sale wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...
Bold response #1: The only character that requires consumables to do the numbers listed is the PA/PV with Smash. The Slash numbers are without ANY CONSUMABLES.

Bold #2: If you know where the spawns are coming from, ie 99% of the time in a camp situation, you can angle and forget about it.

Bold #3: Not my video, but from a similar thread complaining about Slash. youtu.be/iGktId9bpy4

Bold #4: Use it all the time, just like I use the Piranha all the time. I am not calling for balance because I don't like the power, I am calling for balance because it is overpowered. No macro though, that would be cheating.

Bold #5: I did say it toppled enemies, read all of my post.


Right, make your own video. No consumeables, no gear. Go solo platinum, or even gold on, oh, firebase Rio, or Birebase Goddess with both classes using those powers, spammed against a wall liek you advocate. Make a macro, and leave the keyboard. Prove it's as easy as you let on.

You may get off kills, but you'll be punsihed to no end in the effort by being flanked, being out of cover, and so on.

Even when you -can- camp, you'll prolly not survive very long.

It's a long long effort to whittle down a boss with these abilities, believe it or not.

And I am doubting you seriously when you let on that you remotely care about these powers, the classes, or even the game.


1. Did you read where I said that the classes are more suited to being in a team than being solo? This is not about solo capabilities.

2. I can't macro because that would be cheating, nice try though.

3. The numbers are without consumables, except for Smash because you can't stack dots 3x without CD gear.


You're ignoring the practicality of using this power in the manners you suggest.

Even in the best case scenario you're not going to get away with pointing yourself in oen direction, and spamming endlessly.

You made a theory with faulty numbers, too showing you didn't test these powers yourself or else you'd have -your- data. You're relying on other people's findings, and cobbling them together.

Modifié par Rebel_Raven, 11 août 2012 - 01:04 .


#109
SgtAmazing

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No one I have ever seen who posts these threads ever seems to think about why the abilities may be "over powered." The Slayer and Shadow have horrible shields and armor and cannot take very many hits. Both are best carrying minimal fire power (pistol and / or SMG,) and have close range abilities that can get them killed instantly. Maybe the damage is to compensate for being very weak. These characters do not operate very well with anything other than pistols or SMGs because of the recharge speed of their powers, so you end up sacrificing firepower for tech and biotics. You shouldnt be thinking about balancing them with other characters, but balancing them with themselves. The slayer is fast, can teleport through walls, use biotic slash, sacrifices shields for phase disruptor, biotic jumps into enemy while having horrible shields / health. Maybe biotic slash is the way it is because of all the negatives.  Shadow can be spotted and hit prior to getting her shadow strike off getting her killed fairly quickley. 

Modifié par SgtAmazing, 11 août 2012 - 01:05 .


#110
Huma1978

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Dillon79 wrote...

Try using a black widow with a shadow-****** on your team. Good luck hitting 2/3 shots.


Then don't stand near them when they do their attack. Find a alternate sniping position.. that's what I do with my QMI with Black Widow III and there's a Shadow/Slayer/Phoenix Adept/Vanguard...

#111
jakenou

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Take away this only advantage that sm/lashers have, and they turn into worthless beanie babies that spend the whole match running and hiding from baddies, because a baddie even just looking at them acts like energy drain ;)

#112
Kyerea

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AresKeith wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

do you even use them DFS?


Considering he suggested one make a macro to just fire these off against a wall, I'd say no.

You'd be lucky to get away with that on bronze without being carried with such a tactic.


Yes, I do use them all the time.
No macro, since that would be cheating, but I addressed your comments on this earlier.


well if you don't like the slashes then play a different game, if no, then enjoy the MP for what it is, a CO-OP game


It is a co-op game, but how is it fair to the other players if you have two overpowered classes that can do far more than they can with similar abilities? Do you think they are having fun being carried? If you do, you are wrong.


by they, do you mean yourself? because not that many people on here are crying about a power that isn't Op, its crowd control


Oh, so now he's speaking for other players' enjoyment in a co-op game? Claiming to know how other players are feeling and/or thinking?

Has anyone else here actually experienced more than one crappy Slashguard/Slashfiltrator in their Gold/Plat rooms that was really useful and a credit to their team?

#113
Father_Jerusalem

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Dillon79 wrote...

Try using a black widow with a shadow-****** on your team. Good luck hitting 2/3 shots.


Try being anything but a sniper in a game with sniper-tards on your team. Good luck being able to kill anything because they keep sniping everything you're going after. 

#114
jusnii

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no rebalance required thankyou anyway

#115
AresKeith

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Kyerea wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

do you even use them DFS?


Considering he suggested one make a macro to just fire these off against a wall, I'd say no.

You'd be lucky to get away with that on bronze without being carried with such a tactic.


Yes, I do use them all the time.
No macro, since that would be cheating, but I addressed your comments on this earlier.


well if you don't like the slashes then play a different game, if no, then enjoy the MP for what it is, a CO-OP game


It is a co-op game, but how is it fair to the other players if you have two overpowered classes that can do far more than they can with similar abilities? Do you think they are having fun being carried? If you do, you are wrong.


by they, do you mean yourself? because not that many people on here are crying about a power that isn't Op, its crowd control


Oh, so now he's speaking for other players' enjoyment in a co-op game? Claiming to know how other players are feeling and/or thinking?

Has anyone else here actually experienced more than one crappy Slashguard/Slashfiltrator in their Gold/Plat rooms that was really useful and a credit to their team?


the Slashes make good crowd control to keep the enemy back some for your team get some kills, and spamming it can actually get you killed in certain maps

#116
Kyerea

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AresKeith wrote...

Kyerea wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

do you even use them DFS?


Considering he suggested one make a macro to just fire these off against a wall, I'd say no.

You'd be lucky to get away with that on bronze without being carried with such a tactic.


Yes, I do use them all the time.
No macro, since that would be cheating, but I addressed your comments on this earlier.


well if you don't like the slashes then play a different game, if no, then enjoy the MP for what it is, a CO-OP game


It is a co-op game, but how is it fair to the other players if you have two overpowered classes that can do far more than they can with similar abilities? Do you think they are having fun being carried? If you do, you are wrong.


by they, do you mean yourself? because not that many people on here are crying about a power that isn't Op, its crowd control


Oh, so now he's speaking for other players' enjoyment in a co-op game? Claiming to know how other players are feeling and/or thinking?

Has anyone else here actually experienced more than one crappy Slashguard/Slashfiltrator in their Gold/Plat rooms that was really useful and a credit to their team?


the Slashes make good crowd control to keep the enemy back some for your team get some kills, and spamming it can actually get you killed in certain maps


And there's the kicker folks, that's 90% of Slashers you will see in your random game encounters. Clearly, a credit to their team and totally carrying everyone.

#117
KalilKareem

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SgtAmazing wrote...

No one I have ever seen who posts these threads ever seems to think about why the abilities may be "over powered." The Slayer and Shadow have horrible shields and armor and cannot take very many hits. Both are best carrying minimal fire power (pistol and / or SMG,) and have close range abilities that can get them killed instantly. Maybe the damage is to compensate for being very weak. These characters do not operate very well with anything other than pistols or SMGs because of the recharge speed of their powers, so you end up sacrificing firepower for tech and biotics. You shouldnt be thinking about balancing them with other characters, but balancing them with themselves. The slayer is fast, can teleport through walls, use biotic slash, sacrifices shields for phase disruptor, biotic jumps into enemy while having horrible shields / health. Maybe biotic slash is the way it is because of all the negatives.  Shadow can be spotted and hit prior to getting her shadow strike off getting her killed fairly quickley. 


Both classes operates perfectly well with Piranah equipped.

#118
Rebel_Raven

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Spamming it will get you killed in -all- maps, unless someone knows something I don't about an ideal camping spot. It's certainly not the tiny room in FBW.

#119
Zero 2362

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CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

I'm not sure people even realize that the Slashes are nothing more than a repackaged Shockwave...a repackaged Shockwave that goes twice as far and does about 5x more damage. Seriously - look at the power evolution of Shockwave and compare it to Biotic Slash - it's virtually identical. Then compare the power and range of the two.

There's no question there's a balance issue here. I'm not suggesting a solution, b/c I don't know what would be best at this point, but how can one justify a power like this when certain characters are stuck with the far-inferior Shockwave?


The wind up makes the difference. while you are winding up the enemy can move out of range, kill you if you are in the open, get killed by another player making your all cost and no profit not to mention if you try this from behind a desk you are just as vulnerable as in the open. Shokwave dosent have most of these weaknesses.

This power has a higher risk and therfore has a higher reward

#120
Kyerea

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Rebel_Raven wrote...

Spamming it will get you killed in -all- maps, unless someone knows something I don't about an ideal camping spot. It's certainly not the tiny room in FBW.


He's most likely basing this off Firebase Glacier/Cerberus/Gold/Plat farming in the central control room. Clearly, that's what everyone plays all day.

Zero 2362 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

I'm not sure people even realize that the Slashes are nothing more than a repackaged Shockwave...a repackaged Shockwave that goes twice as far and does about 5x more damage. Seriously - look at the power evolution of Shockwave and compare it to Biotic Slash - it's virtually identical. Then compare the power and range of the two.

There's no question there's a balance issue here. I'm not suggesting a solution, b/c I don't know what would be best at this point, but how can one justify a power like this when certain characters are stuck with the far-inferior Shockwave?


The wind up makes the difference. while you are winding up the enemy can move out of range, kill you if you are in the open, get killed by another player making your all cost and no profit not to mention if you try this from behind a desk you are just as vulnerable as in the open. Shokwave dosent have most of these weaknesses. 

This power has a higher risk and therfore has a higher reward

 

Agreed.

Modifié par Kyerea, 11 août 2012 - 01:12 .


#121
KalilKareem

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Rebel_Raven wrote...

Spamming it will get you killed in -all- maps, unless someone knows something I don't about an ideal camping spot. It's certainly not the tiny room in FBW.


Glacier is the new fbw simply because of slashes plus demolishers.

#122
Darksaberexile

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ThelLastTruePatriot wrote...

what shadows are even staying stationary and using that ability like that? All the ones I see are too busy porting around lopping heads off. I myself only use electric slash during hack circles.


This. So very much this.

I play a Shadow most of the time, but I only use slash more than once if SS would be suicide, or I'm in a hacking objective. Shadow Strike isn't very conducive to hacking, and the Talon isn't great for gunning things down from inside the hacking circle either.

#123
CmnDwnWrkn

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svocke2 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Zero 2362 wrote...

DAO MAdhatter wrote...

I just think that the slashes need to have they're reach shortened. When these abilites can out reach smash & flamer by a country mile than something is wrong. Shorten them down to 5 or 10 meatures than drop they're evo to 5 meatures & everything wil be cherry.


And what about shockwave? its a similar power only with less damage and no qind up. All in all its a lot easier to use and the character isnt half as easy to kill. Why hasnt this been brought up? I actually think shokwave is far easier to use in thiss situation than the slashes are


Shockwave has shorter range and does about 1/4 the damage of Biotic Slash.


Shockwave wont serve you up on a platter for Rocket troopers to skull**** you 


Even the most braindead Slash spammers figure out how to spam Slash without taking many hits.  I'll take the wind-up any day for 4x the damage.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 11 août 2012 - 01:13 .


#124
AresKeith

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on my first Platinum try, I had a Slayer spamming slash and a Banshee warped behind him and killed him

#125
Kyerea

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KalilKareem wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

Spamming it will get you killed in -all- maps, unless someone knows something I don't about an ideal camping spot. It's certainly not the tiny room in FBW.


Glacier is the new fbw simply because of slashes plus demolishers.


Which clearly the vast majority of players commit themselves to on a daily basis.

AresKeith wrote...

on my first Platinum try, I had a Slayer spamming slash and a Banshee warped behind him and killed him

 

Exactly my point, that tactic does not apply to Reapers on Gold/Platinum due to Ravagers' obscene range on larger maps, flanking Husks and warping Banshees. If he is basing this solely off one map and one faction type (I'm not even going to bother counting the Geth in any debate on farming), then his results are automatically skewed.

Modifié par Kyerea, 11 août 2012 - 01:16 .