215 réponses à ce sujet

[MagicalMaster]

henesua wrote...

Pointless argument. NWN despite the
hardcoded limitations is a viable option for a hobbyist to create a
multiplayer RPG still to this day.

Its fun.

Building your own RPG from scratch by yourself, not so easy. And for many not as fun.

Precisely.  Which is why I still enjoy the game.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

LOL spoken like a true WOWer... who do you get your pay check from? What is your point here? Paying 1.5k $ is totally worth it compared to just paying 100 as a player? I am not seeing the validity of this argument... It is a total scam, in fact the biggest scam in gaming... the only really messed up thing is why the majority of gamers buy into it... I guess most people are sheep...

I am empirically in the top 0.15% of WoW players (and likely much higher than that, but that's harder to *prove*), so clearly I'm a mindless sheep, yep.  You got me.  Clearly it's the unwashed heathen masses who are brain-dead that pay to play WoW.  Damn peasants.

And yes, paying $1440 is worth it.  I actually took a two year break from WoW, but let's pretend I've actually played all 8 years.  My main character has 216 days logged of playing time.  And I have a few other characters who have probably totaled nearly that much between them, but let's ignore those.  $1440/5184 hours = $0.28 an hour for my entertainment.

In reality, I've probably averaged closer to $0.10-0.15 an hour since I haven't actually paid that much (I've only played six years and at $14 a month) and played more (with other characters).

From my perspective, you're the free-loader as a player.  You're benefitting from the work of others while only paying them $20 over nine years.  That's awfully nice of them (well, not really, they legally can't charge), but a business cannot run on that model.

Now, if you're developing your own content, that's great for you.  I really mean it, I enjoy creating stuff myself.  And you're pouring your heart and soul into it.  But most people don't have the time or inclination to do so, they'd rather just play a game.  And just because they *could* get the NWN content for "free" doesn't mean it isn't *worth* quite a bit, even if it's not legal to charge for it.

Simple question: let's say you were playing on a NWN server you really liked.  However, the hosts simply were running into a lot of money issues and said they simply couldn't keep hosting/maintaining the world without donations.  What is the *most* you'd be willing to donate per month to try to keep it alive?

Lazarus Magni wrote...

My whole point was the fact that if a game developer actually offered a multipayer game to players akin to NWN 1 in the current day, and provided a hosting service to support it, not only would it be free to play for players (after buying the game as it should be), but the game developer would continue to make money off it there by giving the incentive to continuing to suport it even after a decade. Couple that with an open source game like nwn 1 (AKA the potential for gamer to mod it into anything they like), and  multiplayer platform, with continual (I mean over a decade long) original (aka bioware, or whoever) incentive to support it, and yeah... you could have one amazing game...

Let's break this down.

So your theory is that the player buys the game and pays $100 or whatever initially (though that's including the expansions, of course).  The player then can access all of the custom content for free because the community developers cannot legally charge.

However, the community developers still have provide hosting, and you're suggesting they pay Bioware for a hosting service.

So where is the money that is going from the community developers to Bioware coming from?

Are you saying the entire onus is on the community developers to pay everything?

[MagicalMaster]

Pstemarie wrote...

The ACP adds an entire framework of new combat animations. Project Q uses the OnPlayerChat event to switch the animation model to run. NwnE used custom feats. What is required is making new animation supers - which Ragnarok_Mr4 did - and adding new feats (and feat-linked spells) to implement as you suggest.

That sounds very interesting, thanks.  I thought the new combat animations were simply different styles of fighting, not the ability to add in combat animations at desired points.

Pstemarie wrote...

You would use a pseudo-heartbeat to capture the time the buff was added, its duration, then send a chat message to the user of the buff every round to count off how many rounds are left before the buff expires.

So, especially if you have several buffs, you either clog up the chat where the player will miss dialogue or clog up the combat log where it'll scroll by too fast to see?  Ideally you'd have a way built into the UI itself showing remaining duration that can be seen at a glance.

Pstemarie wrote...

To show stacks you could probably rig something in the spellscript that applies the buff. Everytime a buff stacks with an existing buff you send a message to the PC.

That's not what I mean.  I'm talking about a buff or debuff stacking which means the following:

Let's say Melf's Acid Arrow deals 10 damage initially and then 3 damage per round for three rounds (18 seconds).  You cast the spell once and now you have one stack.

If you cast the spell again before those 18 seconds pass you now have two stacks and the timer resets to 18.  So now it's dealing 6 damage per round for 3 rounds.  Cast it again and it's up to dealing 9 damage per round.

Usually this sort of stacking is capped at a number (but not always) and it applies to both buffs and debuffs, usually in shorter duration.  It's an "arbitrary" game mechanic to make things interesting, along with ability cooldowns, and move away from the NWN style of "use your best ability as many times as you can until you run out, then use your second best ability until you run out, then use your third best..."

Here's an example where it's very useful:

Imagine a boss who casts Fireball at a location.  If you get hit, you gain a stack of a debuff for 20 seconds which makes you take damage over time.  The boss casts the fireball every 10 seconds.  Thus, if you keep getting hit, the stack of the debuff will build up until it'll be unhealable and you'll die.  However, if you can avoid two in a row you'll drop the "stack" of debuffs and the damage will reset.

Pstemarie wrote...

Just what are you trying to emulate here anyway? NWN was designed to be a close approximation of the pnp D&D 3.0 rules. Under no circumstances in a well-run (my opinion of such anyway) pnp D&D will a PC know the exact duration of a variable duration spell. Nor will they be tracking the duration of a spell in the heat of combat - too many other things to worry about.

Except a cleric, for example, needs to keep up Prayer, Battletide, Divine Favor, and Divine Power during combat to be at maximum effectiveness, for example.  A mage will need to keep up Elemental Shield, Mestil's Acid Sheath, and Spell Mantle at a minimum.  With visual effects flying around and the buff UI being horrible, I don't think "Can you figure out if your buff fell off?" is an important test of skill.  I don't think a less skilled player not realizing he died because a short-term buff wore off is fair given the UI.  That's just artificial difficulty.

And I'm not trying to emulate DnD 3.0 rules, I think many of them are terrible, especially when translated to a computer game.  One of the main issues, as mentioned above, is in many cases the optimal way to play a caster is to spam your highest level spells, then second highest, then third highest, etc.  That's just dull to me.

Especially when that's often...

Maximized IGMS x 8
Empowered IGMS x 8
Silenced/Stilled IGMS x 8
IGMS x 8

Is the boss dead yet?

Maybe throw in a Disjunction or two or Time Stops depending upon the server, but still..

Pstemarie wrote...
Why in gods name would you need a grid? OH WAIT - you're trying to maximize AOE spell efficiency 

Actually, I don't think it's fair to have a game where friendly fire is typically enabled but you can't tell what your AoE will hit.  Trying to guess whether you'll hit your friend isn't fun and definitely minimizes spell choices to boot.  Which is why I just disable friendly fire.

_six wrote...

Perhaps not coincidentally I think the
combat system that has developed over time in the Mass Effect series (specifically 2 and 3) is much more fun for example, to use an example that might be familiar to folks here. I'm not sure I'd agree WoW is better implemented than NWN, as both seem to fail in what the other succeeds at to me.

Even so, I much prefer NWN modules that focus on puzzles, story, dynamic conversations etc rather than combat - unless they have something really special. And that's something no MMO I've yet seen has pulled off. I find combat that is formatted more as a puzzle than a test of the player's stats, for instance with highly scripted boss encounters, much more interesting. And plenty of NWN's modders in the past have proven more than ept enough to create their own unique takes on it, particular in some of the best single player modules. Key word: unique, even within the same engine.

I'm a big fan of Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, and 95% of Mass Effect 3.  And yes, the combat system is very fun.  Not perfect, but much better than NWN.

Out of curiosity, when you're speaking of WoW's failings, are you referring to combat mechanics or dialogue/story?  I'd agree that NWN is superior on dialogue/story but I think that's more the nature of the medium (MMO with millions vs solo campaigns or smaller group content in campaigns, potentially with DMs.  Or even PWs with DMs that do stuff and RP, which you don't have in WoW obviously).

And yes, I think NWN, by default, should focus on anything but combat.  My work has mainly been trying to figure out good ways to improve the combat systems and bring it semi up to par (and I love designing highly scripted boss encounters).

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 14 août 2012 - 05:12 .

[Pstemarie]

Conversation is kinda moot, MagicalMaster. Seems pretty obvious to me you dislike NWN - okay, your choice, stick to something you do like. Trying to convince people (who obviously enjoy the game and on a board dedicated to the game) how bad the game is; well, that's just a waste of your time and their time.

'Nuff said...

[MagicalMaster]

Pstemarie wrote...

Seems pretty obvious to me you dislike NWN - okay, your choice, stick to something you do like. Trying to convince people (who obviously enjoy the game and on a board dedicated to the game) how bad the game is; well, that's just a waste of your time and their time.

Magical Master wrote...

NWN's saving grace is that a ton of it is adjustable and this makes it interesting despite the significantly inferior mechanics compared to WoW.

What makes you think I'm not aware of how customizable the game is (hint: I've gone so far as to develop a framework for a completely new physical attack system with active abilities instead of watching your character auto-attack while maybe spamming Knockdown or some other feat)? There's a reason it still interests me, but sometimes the mechanics frustrate me.

I was tempted to make a PW using these systems and make a "fresher" NWN with an updated combat system, but I'm not sure how many people would even be interested.

Precisely.  Which is why I still enjoy the game.

My work has mainly been trying to figure out good ways to improve the combat systems and bring it semi up to par (and I love designing highly scripted boss encounters).

It's obvious I dislike NWN?  Say what?  There's five very clear statements that the game interests right above, at a minimum.

And if you recall, this thread started with

Lazarus Magni wrote...

I gotta admit WOW and similar games have always tickled me. Not only are those people limited in terms of
their gaming potential (unlike nwn1 which is nearly open source hence it allows for basically anything in terms of game play), but they are also limited by the fact that is it pay to play... Sorry, but if I already  bought the game, I shouldn't have to pay to play it. And IMHO anyone who does is a sucker. That is the biggest scam in gaming ever.... Perhaps that is the reason "MMO are dying"

I wasn't trying to convince anyone that NWN is bad.  I was trying to convince people that there are valid reasons to pay for WoW versus playing NWN "for free."

And pointing out that NWN isn't quite as totally adjustable as Lazaraus claimed and that adjusting it to that degree takes a lot of work. 

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 14 août 2012 - 05:44 .

[NWN_baba yaga]

I played the wow demo to reach a level 20 cap with a human and nightelf. Was fun for about these 2 days for sure but in the end it was pure grinding the same creatures over and over again just to level up to access new areas w/o getting slaugthered in a sec. But I had some cool hours too as I meet a nice guy with whom i teamed up and adventured/ grinded along the path from elwynn to westfall so it had a positive side. But wow cant be compared in all seriousness to nwn, wow is a game and NWN is a lifestyle!!!

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 14 août 2012 - 06:21 .

[Lazarus Magni]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Lazarus Magni wrote...

LOL spoken like a true WOWer... who do you get your pay check from? What is your point here? Paying 1.5k $ is totally worth it compared to just paying 100 as a player? I am not seeing the validity of this argument... It is a total scam, in fact the biggest scam in gaming... the only really messed up thing is why the majority of gamers buy into it... I guess most people are sheep...

I am empirically in the top 0.15% of WoW players (and likely much higher than that, but that's harder to *prove*), so clearly I'm a mindless sheep, yep.  You got me.  Clearly it's the unwashed heathen masses who are brain-dead that pay to play WoW.  Damn peasants.

And yes, paying $1440 is worth it.  I actually took a two year break from WoW, but let's pretend I've actually played all 8 years.  My main character has 216 days logged of playing time.  And I have a few other characters who have probably totaled nearly that much between them, but let's ignore those.  $1440/5184 hours = $0.28 an hour for my entertainment.

In reality, I've probably averaged closer to $0.10-0.15 an hour since I haven't actually paid that much (I've only played six years and at $14 a month) and played more (with other characters).

From my perspective, you're the free-loader as a player.  You're benefitting from the work of others while only paying them $20 over nine years.  That's awfully nice of them (well, not really, they legally can't charge), but a business cannot run on that model.

Now, if you're developing your own content, that's great for you.  I really mean it, I enjoy creating stuff myself.  And you're pouring your heart and soul into it.  But most people don't have the time or inclination to do so, they'd rather just play a game.  And just because they *could* get the NWN content for "free" doesn't mean it isn't *worth* quite a bit, even if it's not legal to charge for it.

Simple question: let's say you were playing on a NWN server you really liked.  However, the hosts simply were running into a lot of money issues and said they simply couldn't keep hosting/maintaining the world without donations.  What is the *most* you'd be willing to donate per month to try to keep it alive?

This isn’t even what this post was about, but since it is a legitimate discussion I will indulge you from my own “freeloader’s” perspective and experience. Really it’s a legal question, one which only bioware can answer definitively.
 
That question being, how can a community of players share the financial burden of hosting a PW?
 
I have my own ideas, and other servers have handled it in different ways. Perhaps you can set up an open payment system with the host, where by anyone who wants to can pay into it, to cover the hosting costs, rather than just one individual? Another idea I mentioned previously is rotational hosting… From my own experience that is sort of what we have done with Aventia, but on a much longer time scale. I played on Aventia 1 and 2 for something like 9 years. Then when Av2 shut down, I started hosting Av3. But perhaps it could be passed off on a monthly, bi-monthly, or bi-annual basis. It’s still only one person paying for the hosting at any given time, but who that person is changes over time thereby sharing the burden. I am sure there are other ways of handling it too.

[Lazarus Magni]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Lazarus Magni wrote...

My whole point was the fact that if a game developer actually offered a multipayer game to players akin to NWN 1 in the current day, and provided a hosting service to support it, not only would it be free to play for players (after buying the game as it should be), but the game developer would continue to make money off it there by giving the incentive to continuing to suport it even after a decade. Couple that with an open source game like nwn 1 (AKA the potential for gamer to mod it into anything they like), and  multiplayer platform, with continual (I mean over a decade long) original (aka bioware, or whoever) incentive to support it, and yeah... you could have one amazing game...

Let's break this down.

So your theory is that the player buys the game and pays $100 or whatever initially (though that's including the expansions, of course).  The player then can access all of the custom content for free because the community developers cannot legally charge.

However, the community developers still have provide hosting, and you're suggesting they pay Bioware for a hosting service.

So where is the money that is going from the community developers to Bioware coming from?

Are you saying the entire onus is on the community developers to pay everything?

Now this is partially what this thread was about, and it’s a point I have made previously, yet you seem unable to grasp.
 
PW owners pay for hosting regardless. It’s as simple as that. It’s not a question of where does the money come from, but where does the money go? Why not pay it to the game developer? My whole point in this regards is doing so would continue to provide incentive to the developer to continue to support the game, even after 10 years like in NWN 1’s case. And more importantly, would provide developers the incentive for making such a game in the first place.
 
There is a reason why we haven’t seen anything comparable to NWN 1 since NWN 1. It’s not that it can’t be done, or can’t be done better. It’s because game developers are spooked by the potential of a game that can hold a community’s interest for over a decade. And the only model that has been profitable in the long run for them to do so in the past is the WoW one. I am suggesting an alternative to that, which is also viable, and could lead to a game that finally after over 10 years surpasses NWN 1 in terms of what NWN 1 offers (the ability to make your own worlds, and not just worlds but due to it’s semi-open source nature basically create whole new video games. Av3 for example is nothing like the out of the box NWN 1, and the same can be said with so many other PWs… There is so much unique diversity it is amazing… now just imagine what could be done with a modern day equalivent of nwn 1…)

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 14 août 2012 - 08:23 .

[MagicalMaster]

NWN_baba yaga wrote...

I played the wow demo to reach a level 20 cap with a human and nightelf. Was fun for about these 2 days
for sure but in the end it was pure grinding the same creatures over and over again just to level up to access new areas w/o getting slaugthered in a sec. But I had some cool hours too as I meet a nice guy with whom i
teamed up and adventured/ grinded along the path from elwynn to westfall so it had a positive side. But wow cant be compared in all seriousness to nwn, wow is a game and NWN is a lifestyle!!!

It was pure grinding the same creatures over and over again?  Are we talking about the same game?

Because if you were seriously just killing the same monsters over and over again, that's terrible.  You could like double or triple your experience gain and get better items by actually doing the quests, which would take you all around the zones and show you many different small storylines.

I've dabbled in about half a dozen PWs in NWN, and I've yet to see a single PW that has less grinding than WoW. In fact, all of the PWs had far more grinding.  The leveling was possibly faster in some of the PWs, but it was still just "kill tons of mobs to level" and not "do a series of interesting quests, explore, and gradually level as you do them."  I remember being able to go from level 1 to 20 (max level) in a PW in about 4 hours through extremely efficient grinding.  But it definitely wasn't interesting, just "kill these mobs for 30 minutes, then those mobs for 30 minutes, then..."

On a trial account I'm not sure you can use the dungeon finder either to see group content or try out PvP in battlegrounds.

Incidentally, for the people even semi-serious about WoW (aka, the upper half of the playerbase), the game doesn't truly begin until  you get to maximum level, where you have all of your abilities and the game is meant to be balanced.  My preferred activity is raiding, which is 10+ people all working together to defeat powerful and difficult enenmies.  Other people do dungeons (5 people) or PvP.  Others just do quests each day and gain reputation with different factions.

But again, half of the playerbase is content just leveling up and exploring the world.  There's tons of zones and places to see without even reaching max level for those who are more casual.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

This isn’t even what this post was about, but since it is a legitimate discussion I will indulge you from my own “freeloader’s” perspective and experience. Really it’s a legal question, one which only bioware can answer definitively.
 
That question being, how can a community of players share the financial burden of hosting a PW?

It is exactly what this thread is about.  Here's your first paragraph from your first actual post:

"I gotta admit WOW and similar games have always tickled me. Not only are those people limited in terms of their gaming potential (unlike nwn1 which is nearly open source hence it allows for basically anything in
terms of game play), but they are also limited by the fact that is it pay to play... Sorry, but if I already bought the game, I shouldn't have to pay to play it. And IMHO anyone who does is a sucker. That is the biggest scam in gaming ever.... Perhaps that is the reason "MMO are dying""

Let's say the PW had a donation model, where players could donate to a PayPal account.  And again, let's say the admins said the current donations weren't enough and people had to donate more or the PW would have to be closed.

How much per month would you be willing to donate to keep your favorite server alive if necessary?

I think that's a pretty simple and straightforward question and I'd like an answer.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

PW owners pay for hosting regardless. It’s as simple as that. It’s not a question of where does the money come from, but where does the money go? Why not pay it to the game developer? My whole point in this regards is doing so would continue to provide incentive to the developer to continue to support the game, even after 10 years like in NWN 1’s case. And more importantly, would provide developers the incentive for making such a
game in the first place.

And where are the PW owners getting the money?  Is it coming out of their own pockets?  So do they spend their time making a PW, pay for hosting, and then all players just join for free?  Is that your proposed model?

You keep talking about how NWN is "free" for the players.  Well, it's not free for the PW owners to buy hosting.  If you want to argue that the PW owners should be willing to cover all of the costs themselves, fine, argue that, but let's be clear about the situation.

The money for the hosting has to come from someone's pockets.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 14 août 2012 - 08:49 .

[Lazarus Magni]

LOL *Cough* I am a PW owner. *Cough* And I exclusively pay for the hosting.

I don't know how many times, or in how many ways I can repeat my points, some people are just apparently unwilling or unable to understand them... You keep talking about where the money comes from, but my whole point is about where does the money go...

And why are you so interested in how much I personally would be "willing" to pay as a player? If it is HAVE to pay, the answer is zero.

[Pstemarie]

For a lot of people the scam part comes from companies plastering the internet with big honking banners that say "FREE TO PLAY" then limiting what you can do with those free accounts and setting up a system that rewards "premium" accounts for spending money to play a "free" game. Guess its not so free after all.

At least with NWN you don't have to pay - at least after the initial investment - to get the full benefits of the game.

[MagicalMaster]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

LOL *Cough* I am a PW owner. *Cough* And I exclusively pay for the hosting.

I'm aware.  You've mentioned it.  I've acknowledged it.  And that doesn't change my question.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

And why are you so interested in how much I personally would be "willing" to pay as a player? If it is HAVE to pay, the answer is zero.

Because you've said

"Sorry, but if I already bought the game, I shouldn't have to pay to play it. And IMHO anyone who does is a sucker."

or something along the same lines multiple times.

And I'm not even saying you *have* to pay in this scenario.  Let me repeat it since apparently that's necessary:

1. You are a random player on a NWN world that you've been playing on for a few years
2. You find out the PW host has run into financial difficulties
3. The host has *asked* for *donations* but stated if they don't get enough they'll have to return the money and shut the place down
4. How much would you be willing to contribute per month to keep the server alive?

Is your answer zero?  That you'd rather see the server go under than donate a single penny?

Lazarus Magni wrote...

I don't know how many times, or in how many ways I can repeat my points, some people are just apparently unwilling or unable to understand them... You keep talking about where the money comes from, but my whole point is about where does the money go...

No, your point was also that players were stupid for paying per month for a game that they "bought."  And how NWN was "free."  My point is that the hosting money has to come from the PW owners and/or the players on the PW.   And I was asking what the ratio of that money should be (more specifically, should the players be *expected* to contribute anything).

100% owners and 0% players?

50% owners and 50% players?

0% owners and 100% players?

Pstemarie wrote

For a lot of people the scam part comes from companies plastering the internet with big honking banners that say "FREE TO PLAY" then limiting what you can do with those free accounts and setting up a system that rewards "premium" accounts for spending money to play a "free" game. Guess its not so free after all.

At least with NWN you don't have to pay - at least after the initial investment - to get the full benefits of the game.

Yeah, I agree that's a bit of a scam.  Which is why I don't mind WoW, it's very clear.  You can do a trial account (which is specifically called a Starter Edition) up to level 20 to try the game, then after that it's paid and all subscribers are equal.  You can buy cosmetic mounts and pets from the store for real money if you want, but it just looks different, there's no actual gameplay advantage.  Pure vanity.

Regarding your last sentence, you mean you don't have to pay to access the original campaigns, right?

No?  You mean you meant all of the community content?  Who would have thought that Bioware wouldn't charge you for something they didn't make?  That's crazy talk.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 14 août 2012 - 09:50 .

[Pstemarie]

Wasn't referring to the CC with the last comment, hence the phrase "at least after the initial investment" that was inserted into the middle of the sentence.

After the initial investment in the game - the OC, SoU, HotU, and the Premium Modules (if you buy those) - you do NOT have to pay to use the game to its full extent as published. I don't even know where your last text-chunk came from - short of a wise-cracking and thinly veiled attempt to provoke an argument.

Sorry you feel so jaded by your attempts to mod NWN that you have to come in here with your fists clenched and take jabs at people. To each their own. I've wasted too much time on this thread anyway. Good luck with your efforts...

[NWN_baba yaga]

I agree that you cant beat a troll with words of wisdom... use a fireball or just dont look at them. They will move along when no attention is givin to them...

[Pstemarie]

I prefer acid for trolls - they scream louder and longer... 

Modifié par Pstemarie, 14 août 2012 - 10:18 .

[MagicalMaster]

Pstemarie wrote...

Wasn't referring to the CC with the last comment, hence the phrase "at least after the initial investment" that was inserted into the middle of the sentence.

After the initial investment in the game - the OC, SoU, HotU, and the Premium Modules (if you buy those) - you do NOT have to pay to use the game to its full extent as published. I don't even know where your last text-chunk came from - short of a wise-cracking and thinly veiled attempt to provoke an argument.

I thought you were referring to the community content, since that's been one of the foci of this entire thread (the ability to customize the game and make new modules).  If you're simply referring to the OC/SoU/HotU/PMs, is it fair to compare a single player campaign that's played on your own computer to an MMO?

As far as I know, only MMOs have subscriptions, single player games do not.  Look at Starcraft II or Diablo 3 if you want to see examples of Blizzard games that feature an initial investment and then you get the full extent indefinitely.  Starcraft II also has a toolset and lots of custom content from the community like NWN.

But neither NWN nor SC2 require Blizzard to maintain servers and neither gets new content every few months from Blizzard, hence no subscription.

Pstemarie wrote...

Sorry you feel so jaded by your attempts to mod NWN that you have to come in here with your fists clenched and take jabs at people. To each their own. I've wasted too much time on this thread anyway. Good luck with your efforts...

I don't know why you think I'm jaded, why you think my fists are clenched, or why you think I'm taking jabs at people.

If you recall, this thread *started* with Lazarus effectively taking a jab at *me.*  Along with ten million other people.

I've accepted NWN will never have the combat engine I want.  But I still enjoy fiddling with it and I actually convinced two friends from WoW to buy it yesterday, and I'll be introducing them to the game tonight hopefully.  Just because I also love WoW doesn't mean I can't like NWN but also be realistic about NWN's limitations.

NWN_baba yaga wrote...

I agree that you cant beat a troll with words of wisdom... use a fireball or just dont look at them. They will move along when no attention is givin to them...

Please point to where I've been trolling.  If anything, you came here and started talking about how WoW was a giant grind when it's one of the least grindy MMOs in existence.  The whole reason it became popular was because it was so much more accessible than Everquest, which was a horrid grind.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 14 août 2012 - 10:24 .

[MrZork]

I don't see how it benefits the discussion to argue along the lines of "If you point out flaws with the thing I like, you must not like it and you should go away / there's no point talking to you." For sure, someone can understand that NWN has enduring flaws without disliking NWN.

And NWN does have some GUI and engine flaws that haven't been overcome. I love NWN and it's the only game I've really been playing for more than a year. But, I would love it more if the game map didn't get hidden behind every other widget or panel (inventory, journal, character sheet, etc.) that one wants to see. It would also be great if those panels didn't cover the action queue. I wish the EffectDamage() function respected its nDamagePower argument, so spells doing physical damage penetrated damage reduction properly. It would be nice if the text weren't tiny when playing at high resolutions (yes, even with the high res font option). It would be handy if NWScript could determine and change where items are placed in inventory. And so on. None are show-stoppers, but just things that could be better or less clunkily.

None of that was meant to imply that some of the game's limitations can't be worked around. The community-made additions to the art assets available in the game are beautiful and impressive. Ditto for the GUI enhancements, scripted systems, etc. And, NWNX and projects like the one ElgarL and now virusman worked on have (or had?) tremendous promise to deal with some of the engine issues. But there are certainly aspects of NWN that aren't done as well as they could be and are (AFAIK) very difficult to change. Pointing that out (even if I were to do it by comparison with things some other game does better) doesn't in any way imply that I don't like NWN.

FWIW, as to potential business models for games like NWN it's not impossible that a game could run on a model similar to the one implied by Lazarus Magni, where the game developer charges players for the game and charges PW servers for hosting. Frankly, there's no reason not to allow the people running the PWs to charge, if they wanted to and if they had players willing to ante up (they could certainly still foot the bill themselves or ask for donations). I'm not saying it would be successful, but it would be a variation on the franchise theme, which certainly has some application as a workable business model. I worry that there would have to be a huge player base in order to generate enough server demand for that model to be successful for the game developer. But, if it worked, it certainly would have the benefit of encouraging the developer to support and improve the game for a longer period of time.

As to the broader question of the future of MMO, I think a very significant area where big online games are missing an opportunity is that they don't (to my knowledge) do a great job of leveraging people's creative passions and improvement obsessiveness. One of the secrets of the internet is that people love to create, to tweak, to help others, and to write and tell stories and they will do so (often without charge) if given the opportunity. In gaming, providing tools people can use to breathe life into their creative visions, means that some fraction of players will be inspired and pour energy into their art, their stories, their scripts - in effect, their worlds. Let people build their worlds (or at least parts of them) and share them and they will do so. Given good enough tools and the opportunity for some recognition for their efforts, 2000 dedicated amatuers will voluntarily come up with way more content than twenty salaried people working on new content for the company. And, while some of it will be crummy, some will be excellent. On the scales of a big MMO with a million or two players, if a even small fraction of them were allowed to do their own building, they would easily come up with more and better stuff than even dozens of content developers.

Obviously, providing a venue for that creativity inside an large online environemnt would be challenging. Just dealing with balance issues is a whole world of headache. And, I understand that some servers let players do some creative things, like set up bases and so on. I'm not familiar enough with that to know how far they go, but my impression has been that it's pretty limited. I really think that encouraging and harnessing the creative energies of players will open up a whole new chapter of online gaming. If there is a "next big thing" to transform online gaming in the next decade or so, I think that will be it.

[NWN_baba yaga]

@magicalmaster
didnt want to insult you or anything but to me, as narrow minded about nwn as i am it is trolling. this game has provided the master tool for rpg creation and ehem blizzard...Now you throw in starcraft? The sims has a modding community as large as the old halflife one too...

You have to think a bit more positiv when working with a game, the glass is not half empty it is half full...

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 14 août 2012 - 10:50 .

[Lazarus Magni]

I could not have said it better myself MrZork, and I didn’t but I am glad you did, and that somebody got my point.

MM, you presume too much, and once again are trying to put words in my mouth. Naturally as this discussion has developed, so have the points I have been making, and I stand by them.

I still think paying to play a game you already bought is a scam, as is paying to influence a server, or paying to win (getting an in game advantage over others.) My initial point was that perhaps other people are also feeling this way, and perhaps that somewhat explains the decline in MMO popularity which that article talks about.

I went on to make further points about how I thought a game developer could re-kindle that passion and have it be worth their while which MrZork quite elegantly summed up, and expounded upon. That model could be a win win for all parties involved.

MM you are the one who wanted to talk about how PWs are paid for, and I gave my opinion, and some ideas in addition to stating that I fully support a PW community’s ability to share that burden. But I do not support that being used as an excuse to profit from it, especially when it is hand in hand with conferring unfair advantages to donators (aka pay to win.) Of course the money has to come from somewhere, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that it is free for the majority of the players, and it doesn’t have to be used as an excuse to exploit player bases (be it WOWers, or NWN 1 PW communities, or whoever…)

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 14 août 2012 - 11:00 .

[Shadooow]

MagicalMaster: Im on your side. This is indeed the same as when some player started thread on WoW forums with saying that NWN is crap. There is no point of comparing either of games.

Though, I dont think there is any future in MMORPGs like WoW anymore. Latest games are pumping latest money and players must soon realize its the same over and over.

[WebShaman]

Well, it is fun to compare games, no?

It generates text, in any regards

Are you saying the entire onus is on the community developers to pay everything?

This puzzles me - it always has been this way. You want to be a PW Owner, run your own PW, etc? Yep, you foot the bill. This is what Bioware DEMANDED (no pay-to-play, donation only). PWs that violated this and came to Bioware's attention got spanked.

But to be honest, the requirements to host a NWN PW are not really all that high, especially with a linux box (and yeah, the game runs on linux! Yaaahhhhh!).

I ran a PW for years on an old box, screwed together from old parts laying around. As for the connection, well, I have a flatrate (always have had one as long as I can remember because I am teh interwebs addict, yup).

The costs in actual financial terms of hosting a PW is not that high, really. What is high is MAINTAINING it. The investment of time is IMHO the most costly. It is the main reason that most PWs end up having to go the Staff route - and not just for DMs. And all these peeps do it in their free time (because they do not get paid to do what they do).

I think this is probably one of the biggest stumbling areas of the model.

One of the ideas knocking around in my head is having the company in question creating a NWN type game, and then creating their own PW. You can log into it for free (we might have to expand on this part, it might be necessary to actually pay-to-play, I don't really know what the numbers are here).

There should be additional content provided every so often, and yeah, a single campaign, etc.

And then let the players go mad with their own PWs, content, whatever.

I think that is what NWN missed - that Bioware was not bold enough to officially support and enhance the online part of the game. If they had run their own PW from the start, I think that would have revolutionized the online portion.

I can't remember how I got turned on to Neverwinter Nights. I was not one of those who came from BG - I had never played BG before NWN. I think I heard about it somewhere online, and got into the game at the beginning (it was billed as the "next big D&D CRPG", iirc)

It took awhile for the online part of it to take off - I think I started playing online a year later, as some of the more technical hurdles for online play got solved (I think dynamic storage was one of the main hurdles, finding ways to store quest conditions, etc). And stability issues...whoah!

Bioware actually did a LOT of unofficial support in patches for online play (especially stability issues iirc), but they never failed to remind the Online Community that they were on their own and that there would be no official support for online play.

And I think that really got the creativity going. Some of the most respected of NWN CCers come from the online portion of the Community - and their ingenuity at fixing or getting around obstacles were (and still are) absolutely amazing.

The PRC alone (though it was not really meant for online play from the beginning) involves some really incredible fixes and get arounds in it to get the content to players. Along with NWNx2...wow. Then it went online.

It was mentioned by MrZork, I believe, about the GUI issue. Well, that one is a big issue actually. It was one of the greatest of obstacles to bringing custom races, classes, etc to NWN play. I am not currently up to date on this obstacle - has it been solved?

I know that the PRC did a Conversational Character Generator for Online Play (and we have the Character Creator, which was modified from Codi, I believe, to support the PRC, and Ben then put the fine cut on it. Thanks, Ben - miss ya!)

I know that Codi was working on some really amazing stuff - they had a server (private) to test a lot of their stuff. I think it was a really big blow to the Online CC Community when they blew up.

DLA did some of the most incredible work...I mean, some of the greatest names, CCwise, come from DLA...miss you guys, too. Hope you are doing well, Steelwind. Thanks for the horses.

Imagine a Planescape PW. Or a Dragonlance one. Done from those prospective Teams.

*sigh*

Oh yeah, to the multiple related PW thing - Avlis did this (they still around?). I am not quite sure who came up with the tool that alllowed for syncing multiple PW databanks. But it made it possible for structures like Avlis to exist. I believe that is how they did their Outer Planes stuff...each one on a different PW. So this is already possible and has been done.

My read on NWN Online Play is that it was never made for MMO style play. In other words, no Massive in MO. Limitations in how many can actually join a PW limit how many can associate together. Additional tools and advances are missing as well - this is really where Bioware dropped the ball (and it was never picked up).

If these limitations had not existed, and if the Online part of the game had been developed and patched as aggressively as the other parts, I think NWN would of been much bigger than it was, or is. If there ever is a NWNee, then I really hope that the Online part gets some serious attention. And the GUI.

Oh yeah, before I forget - I know of a PW where there is a LOT of scripted story, quests, etc - Thain.  Now, this is not a Thain fan drop, but just a means to point out at least one PW that has a lot of story in it - in fact, it is centered around a storyline.  One can even DL (or could) the PW for solo play - which is a lot of fun, really.  I have modified my solo version of Thain extensively for added fun.

And no, you will not level up to 20 there in 4 hours.  I know for a fact that it will take longer - I think around a week of MMO style grinding may do it - but you will need to really know the place and the spawn loops to do this.  And you will need to be a real pro at solo-ing, or have a really good team.  Not meaning that the encounters are difficult - they are not, not really.  But death does have the added penalty of an XP "pause" that means you cannot earn XP for awhile, game time.  Meaning you cannot just log out and wait, you need to be in game and wait.

Unfortunately, due to my modifications of my solo version and my...ummm...disparity to changes made by the current Staff, I cannot play on Thain as it now is online.  It is just not my cup of tea.  Sure is nice to play Thain as I want to, though.

Not sure how the playerbase is nowadays on Thain.  Back then, it was a pretty good one.  Sure had a lot of fun.  Too bad the Staff changed things, I would have kept playing.

Modifié par WebShaman, 15 août 2012 - 12:48 .

[PlasmaJohn]

WebShaman wrote...

Oh yeah, to the multiple related PW thing - Avlis did this (they still around?). I am not quite sure who came up with the tool that alllowed for syncing multiple PW databanks. But it made it possible for structures like Avlis to exist. I believe that is how they did their Outer Planes stuff...each one on a different PW. So this is already possible and has been done.

Yes, Avlis is still around.  The Avlis servers themselves are on a shared vault.  We still participate in CoPaP ( http://www.copap.org ) 

The tool you're thinking of is Vaultster which transmits a copy of the player's bic to other NWN severs with their own vaults.  The concept was conceived by Orl and Pappillion (IIRC) and originally coded by JeronenB.  I rewrote it a couple of years ago so the receiver could work on Linux.  Vaultster is part of the NWNX distribution.

Modifié par PlasmaJohn, 15 août 2012 - 02:23 .

[WebShaman]

^Thanks for the update, PlasmaJohn! Fills in some of the holes that I have.

Much appreciated.

And it is nice to know that Avlis and CoPaP are still around!

[MagicalMaster]

MrZork wrote...

I don't see how it benefits the discussion to argue along the lines of "If you point out flaws with the thing I like, you must not like it and you should go away / there's no point talking to you." For sure, someone can understand that NWN has enduring flaws without disliking NWN.

....

But there are certainly aspects of NWN that aren't done as well as they could be and are (AFAIK) very difficult to change. Pointing that out (even if I were to do it by comparison with things some other game does better) doesn't in any way imply that I don't like NWN.

Well said.  Along with everything else.  I wish I could help design stuff for WoW and submit it for evaluation, but alas that isn't possible.  So I fiddle with stuff in NWN.

NWN_baba yaga wrote...

@magicalmaster didnt want to insult you or anything but to me, as narrow minded about nwn as i am it
is trolling. this game has provided the master tool for rpg creation and ehem blizzard...Now you throw in starcraft? The sims has a modding community as large as the old halflife one too...

I was pointing out that, if anything, Starcraft II is more similar to NWN than WoW.  Both have single-player, co-op, and even a more persistent online scene that is very focused on custom content and a toolset.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

MM you are the one who wanted to talk about how PWs are paid for, and I gave my opinion, and some ideas
in addition to stating that I fully support a PW community’s ability to share that burden. But I do not support that being used as an excuse to profit from it, especially when it is hand in hand with conferring unfair advantages to donators (aka pay to win.) Of course the money has to come from somewhere, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that it is free for the majority of the players, and it doesn’t have to be used as an excuse to exploit player bases (be it WOWers, or NWN 1 PW communities, or whoever…)

I don't understand why you think the WoW player base is being exploited.  Blizzard makes a games and charges a montly fee to recoup development costs, maintain the servers, and generate more content.  You might argue you think $13-15 a month is too much and a rip-off, but right now you're arguing it's a scam if Blizzard chages $0.01 a month.  That's what I don't get.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

MagicalMaster: Im on your side. This is indeed the same as when some player started thread on WoW forums with saying that NWN is crap. There is no point of comparing either of games.

Though, I dont think there is any future in MMORPGs like WoW anymore. Latest games are pumping latest money and players must soon realize its the same over and over.

Thanks.  And yeah, I don't think pumping out WoW clones in a different setting is going to work.  WoW succeeded because of how different it was from predecessors, not because it was so similar.

WebShaman wrote...

This puzzles me - it always has been this way. You want to be a PW Owner, run your own PW, etc? Yep, you
foot the bill. This is what Bioware DEMANDED (no pay-to-play, donation only). PWs that violated this and came to Bioware's attention got spanked.

....

The costs in actual financial terms of hosting a PW is not that high, really. What is high is MAINTAINING it.
The investment of time is IMHO the most costly. It is the main reason that most PWs end up having to go the Staff route - and not just for DMs. And all these peeps do it in their free time (because they do not get paid to do what they do).

Oh, I agree with all of that.  My main point is that it seems odd for Lazarus to demand Blizzard doesn't get paid to maintain WoW and that it's a scam.  It's not legal in NWN, of course, but if I found a PW I liked I'd have no objection to paying a few bucks a month to play there.  I recognize the time and energy people are putting into it (along with stuff like the minimal hosting costs).

WebShaman wrote...

I can't remember how I got turned on to Neverwinter Nights. I was not one of those who came from BG - I had never played BG before NWN. I think I heard about it somewhere online, and got into the game at the
beginning (it was billed as the "next big D&D CRPG", iirc)

I walked into a video game store and asked the clerk for an interesting RPG.  Very randomly stumbed onto NWN.

WebShaman wrote...

Oh yeah, before I forget - I know of a PW where there is a LOT of scripted story, quests, etc - Thain.  Now, this is not a Thain fan drop, but just a means to point out at least one PW that has a lot of story in it - in fact, it is centered
around a storyline.  One can even DL (or could) the PW for solo play - which is a lot of fun, really.  I have modified my solo version of Thainextensively for added fun.

And no, you will not level up to 20 there in 4 hours.  I know for a fact that it will take longer - I think around a week of MMO style grinding may do it - but you will need to really know the place and the spawn loops to do this.  And you will need to be a real pro at solo-ing, or have a really good team.  Not meaning that the encounters are difficult - they are not, not really.  But death does have the added penalty of an XP "pause" that means you cannot earn
XP for awhile, game time.  Meaning you cannot just log out and wait, you need to be in game and wait.

Yeah, I tried Thain briefly and didn't particularly like it, only got a few levels in.  I may be biased because I went to the first combat zone, was exploring around, and then was one-shot by an Impossible archer mob before I even saw it (must have had long perception).  Then the quest giver had vanished and wasn't possible to find (and I checked every nook and cranny of the town, including inside the buildings).  Then the XP for the quest was pitiful after she randomly reappeared like 20 minutes later.  Then I explored a bit, died, logged off for the night, logged back on, and found out I was supposed to wait over 30 minutes real time.  Being encouraged to alt-tab and play a different game seems like awful design.

Beyond all that, Thain was...er, great.  Maybe it picks up later on.  But considering I've played on at least four other PWs for a decent amount of time, it was by far the worst starting experience and gave me very little hope for later on.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 17 août 2012 - 12:36 .

[MagicalMaster]

Double post.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 17 août 2012 - 12:35 .

[WebShaman]

Well...if you DL the PW Mod (assuming one still can, haven't checked in ages), you can actually open it up and see the storyline, and how it is done. I consider it pretty good.

Bitraiser did some awesome work back then with his staff on it.

Yet another great gone... *sigh*

I won't go into the subjective parts pertaining to the PW here - perhaps in a PM?